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Any thoughts on this? We have been very interested in buying there and are about to plunk down several million BUT there is this nagging feeling we have in dealing with the developer that there is something wrong.
I went to look at the place a few months ago and decided against. It seems like the apartments are becoming available in phases, and they're not projecting to really be up and running until middle of '08, at the earliest. I also got the sense it might take longer, and that it wouldn't be so wonderful to be there in the interim, before all the services are in place. And, there may or may not be unresolved issues with people who are living in apartments that aren't being converted (I'm not sure; it did strike me as a little weird though to be buying into a building like this where it was unclear whether everyone in the building would be part of the miraval program.
I also had concerns about the location, but that's an entirely separate issue.
It seems like a great concept if they can pull it off though.
I was turned off by location, high monthly fees, and closing dates (not until '08). Other than that, seemed like a very nice place...
I think they had it down to 8 holdouts and they may have bought them out. I have sold a couple apartments over there and they are expected to close in oct 07 and dec 07. The december deal had a guaranteed closing. The cc's are a bit high, but you do get the best amenities around- if you are an amenities person this could be your place. Prices are very competitive for family sized 3 beds, combos have been popular too. I think once they have the lobby and part of the spa done they will be moving quickly.
I say, "Always trust your gut !" If you sense that there is something amiss then there probably is.
Just wondering if the original poster decided to buy in Miraval. We are seriously considering purchasing now that common charges have been reduced. Also wondering if they were willing to negociate in price at all
New cc and spa charges were definitely better. A friend of mine did buy. However, not only were they mot negotiable with us on the apartment price, they raised their offering price (which was in writing) saying that they had made a error. Did not sit well with us. Now waiting for their "final", "final" numbers and then will decide. Are they being more emphatic/organized with you? Have to say -- did not expect all this stress from a place that is supposed to relieve stress!
I have not made an offer yet but thanks for your input on pricing... I have not been thrilled with the salespeople as they don't seem especially forthcoming on information but I do like the building and location is perfect for me. Good luck with your negociations. I'll post back after I make an offer.
#9, when did they raise their offering price? When I went in (several months ago), I was given one set of prices and then told that there were new prices, but if I bought "today", I could get the old prices. It seemed a bit too high pressure for my tastes. I wonder if that's just a standard method of negotiation that is used over there.
A fried of mine had his offer accepted, a tiny bit money off, and he wanted lots of interior renovations, which they threw in as well, along with meeting with their architect to draw it up, at their cost. This is last week.
It sounds like a used car dealership with their phony pricing tactics.
Any word on how this project has progressed in the last year or so? Seems like they keep raising prices. Any idea whether they're selling and whether the amenities are in place?
We are close to signing a contract and have been very pleased with the process. The gym is the best in the city by far -- and we've seen a lot of gyms. The pool is close to being finished and again we were very pleased with what we saw -- unlike so many other pools this one is above ground with huge windows looking out on the enormous backyard. There are also hot tubs (important to us) which were lacking at Ariel and The Laurel. The developer has been very good at customizing our apartment (without any 'nickel and diming') and I seem to recall that there were no more holdouts. Yes, they have raised prices but so have Laurel and Lucida and so many others. We are very excited about moving in before the end of the year.
pool and gym....have you ever been in the horizon ?
Haven't seen the Horizon, but that's because that location didn't work for us. Miravel also has an amazing outdoor space -- Perhaps there are other buildings with similar outdoor space, but since we are moving from Arizona, the tremendous outdoor space was a big issue for us. And when combined with the amenities which we are very used to living out West, Miraval was the right choice for the family.
I am a purchaser waiting to close on a Miraval unit. So far, the closing has been delayed by 3-4 months. Anyone else running into delays at the building?
It seems like the entire conversion project is encountering delays; however, the areas that have been completed (e.g., the gym) are beautiful.
The construction has been close to the recent schedule that I was shown. Not sure how that compares to before.
What phase was your apartment? It seemed like phase 3 is done, and the phase 4 apartments were moving along, most had the kitchen and baths in and seemed to have completion dates in the next month.
Then Phase 5 was scheduled to be done in mid-late november I think? The agent agreed phase 6 (which seemed to be everything else: top floors, outdoor, and cafe) and had a date of 12/31, was not very realistic.
Thank you for your follow-up. My unit is in Phase 3, and it was originally slated to be completed in May. I think once everything is completed, the building will be outstanding; however, it seems as if everything is taking longer than originally anticipated.
We purchased two apartments that are being combined. We anticipate moving in fairly close to the date given us by the agent (maybe off by a couple of weeks) -- but no drastic delays (at least not yet. We agree things have been slow but recently certain construction activity seems to have picked up. We searched long and hard for a building and believe this is going to be a great place to live. Our money went further here than it would have at The Laurel or The Brompton or any of those places.
I figure the price differential between 515 and the Brompton is primarily due to location. 1 block from an express stop vs. as long a hike as possible to a subway on the upper east (as far east as possible, and in between two stops).
Anyone have a recent read on the building? Based on Streeteasy data, it looks like sales have slowed down a bit.
jkhsuman, Did they finish your apartment yet?
Looks pretty slow with one closing in September and 2 in October. Seems low in a 400 unit building, even if times are tough. We were seriously looking, and they gave us a good deal on price, but would not deal on a couple of small things in the contract. Then LEH blew up, and we decided to wait.
My interpretation of some of the details seemed like things could be a pain if the building does not sell and becomes rental. I know a lot of stuff is written to protect the sponsor, but if things got reall bad and they wanted to be jerks, it seemed like they had the upper hand.
toast, if you don't mind saying, can you give some sense of percentages they were willing to negotiate?
Interestingly, it looks like the first resale in the building just went on the market.
It's a 2BR. Buyer paid just over $1.5M and is asking $1.685. I'm guessing he'll have to lower below what he paid in order to sell. At any rate, it'll be interesting to see what, if any, impact this and potential future listings have on the sponsor's asking prices.
No matter how nice the building, it just seems that, given the economy and the location, prices are going to have to come down quite a bit in order for them to start moving inventory.
My sense (backed by experience) is that they are willing to negotiate around the original offering prices. Which is about 17% off the current rack rates.
Thanks, toast - that is interesting. Given how few apartments have sold so far, do you have the strong sense it may become a rental?
Well, JohnDoe, that is the (2 million) $64,000 question... or it is for me.
They do seem to have a lot of combined units already sold, and I do believe that if everything in contract closes, they will be over 50% sold, have a good story, some rich and famous tenants, and good momentum. But given how the market seems to be doing, I don't envy their position.
I did notice that 2Br resale now on the market. Sucks to be him. The sponsor has lots of units that they can sell for the less than the price that guy paid. And the sponsor also was very agreeable to add in all kinds of layout and small changes while they have all the workmen around.
That was what finally got me to back off, I found the sales office very honest and friendly, but I wouldn't want to be in a bind and need to flip my unit against them...
No, the apartment is not finished yet, and visibility is low. From my sources, given the number of combo 3,4, and 5 bedroom units, Miraval is trying to ultimately sell 300 units. Thus far, it looks like 104 have closed, and I hear 40-50 (including mine) are in contract.
Although over the long-term, the building should be quite attractive given the larger lay-outs and amenities, the short-term issue will be the possibility of a high percentage of rentals, given the distressed marketplace.
I just noticed that 21F closed. I have a list that said it was combined with G and in contract, so it looks like one combo deal fell through if the list was correct. But it does show a 4th phase apartment done.
Selling price was $1.65M, list was $1.992, so it sold for just over 17% off.
Good luck to the guy selling a 2-br for $1.685 when the sponsor is selling 3-br for less.
My favorite part is that the buyer got a mortgage for $1.579M at 3.8% from Rockefeller University. Looks like he is their financial manager. Wish I could write myself a half market rate mortgage with nothing down...
Toast -- how do you know Mortgage info.??? You are good -- know anything like this about The Brompton???
JennyPenny you could get the mortgage document from ACRIS
Is anyone still in contract with the units here? I am interested in hearing about the process.
csilver, yes you can email me if you want firstname.lastname@example.org
I saw the apartments here--it's a conversion but the plumbing and electricity have also been done
The amenities were a little overwhelming (too many of them)... it has everything!
I am definitely considering a place here
dear max, the process was excellent
It's interesting to note that the asking prices for most of these apts are exactly the same as what they were asking in 2007 when I looked there.
Saw a nice apt in this bldg today. What am I missing? Other than being very far east, seems great.
tojc516-you said it. Very far east. Otherwise it is great.
is there anyone trying to get out of there contract since the building is selling so poorly?
Beware fishing lawyers...
I agree with tojc516's and skilly2222's assessment, and the 2nd ave subway will someday make this less of an issue. The building will be terrific as time goes on and the pool and spa open.
I appreciate the feedback. Based on my visits to the building, it seems only half full. If they dont sell out, or if it takes years to do so, can I be on the hook for additional costs somehow?
I believe the building will eventually sell. The sponsor, or any subsequent owner of unsold units, is responsible for unsold unit costs. Even if the sponsor defaults, which is probably unlikely, someone will take over and pay the common charges for unsold units. All IMHO.
this building is in major trouble financially
Maybe I'm the craxy one - but who would want to lay out that kind of cash to live in this building. I saw a 1 bed there about 8mos ago. the building used to be a rental building -- the apt was about 600 sqft and a typical layout for a UES postwar building. very cookie cutter only with high end appliances and w/d in unit. and for this they were asking slightly under $1M. Half the amenities don't exist yet and on top of that some of them are extra -- ie not included in maintenance. the spa - you pay- as it is independent from the building (supposedly a canyon ranch) and the building it's poorly located in the UES no man's land.
btw - they had a very nice open house when i was there - problem was i was the only one there and that was 8 mos ago when the market was still hot. it was very sad.
tojc516: Consider the amenities, salt water pool, gym, locker rooms, gardens, yoga rooms, party rooms, class rooms, restaurant---nice now but down the line (think resale here) they will have to be maintained, staffed and eventually refurbished by the condo assoc. This is true for all 'new' construction; the extras are stunning but in the end you pay. My 'guesstimate' is that the majority of residents in the end don't use the facilities. But they still pay. If you decide to buy, it would be worth having your atty. be fully aware of the condo. assoc's obligation to the restaurant.
nathanson, I would curious to know what you base your comments on re "major trouble financially." My attorney has advised otherwise, but I am on the fence.
As usual, there are plenty of people to trash everything.
nathanson could be anyone with an axe to grind. Let's see... who to listen to... you attorney or an anonymous basher on the internet?
The building isn't in any financial issue as unlike many other conversions/new constructions, has the funds to complete the project without any additional sales. I think the major drawback to many people is it's location. however, i think the location is strategic to the Miraval business. Who would want a spa and wellness center in midtown manhattan? The pristine/quiet surrounding with river views can only be had either along the East River or the Hudson River. And given the cul de sac that the building is in and the 1/2 acre private outdoor space, this is the optimal location for this "themed" building.
As for sales, they're slow but its no different than any other sales in the city for new constructions.
It's a great building with great amenities if you'll utilize them. As for the maintenance, yes, it's high and it would def sell more if it was more reasonable...
yogi, why do you say the maintenance is high, when it is comparable with other buildings, when you add all monthlies together?
Having just moved in two months ago we did our due diligence and were satisfied (as was our attorney) that the building is not in any financial trouble. As for location -- I can see how some folks see it as a drawback but for us it is a plus. We like being where it is quiet and we don't view it as being too far from anything. We've found more fun neighborhood places than we thought we would actually. If you are not an amenities person then this place isn't for you, but we have taken full advantage of the gym and recently opened steam/sauna rooms and anxiously await pool and hot tub openings. There is a place for everyone in this city and this may definitely not be to some folks liking, but for us, it is perfect. Best of luck to all buyers whereever you end up.
nike, I'm glad to hear you're enjoying your new home. Do you have a sense of when all the amenities will be up and running? Does it seem like a lot of people have moved in yet?
>yogi, why do you say the maintenance is high, when it is comparable with other buildings, when you add all monthlies together?
In fact, I think the monthlies are quite reasonable given the extent of their amenities--in such an impressive bldg.
I think out-of-towners are often shocked by Manhattan condo CCs. Even for properties w/ low monthlies (from our perspectives), you will always get a respondent or two on this site saying, "the monthlies are too high!"
Yogi here - Sorry, you're correct that the mtc is reasonable when compared to other new constructions but i suppose the taxes added on top make it more/month than a comparable new construction that has a 15-20 yr tax abatement.
btw, i live in the building as well and do love it.. esp now that the sauna and steam room are up and running...
You are peculiar... you have gotten yourself a horribly overpriced piece of RE. it will take 20 years, accounting for inflation, for you to sell and recoup capital.. meanwhile you are feeding the sharks.. 1.5k psf??????????? and the monthlies
I guess you are really loaded and just uninterested in the economics of it.
Man, the Miraval has slowed down. No sales since april and nothing over $1M since Feb.
Have JPM and Wells Fargo pulled back their approved status?
I was looking around just out of curiosity, and just want to revive the maintenance/monthlies discussion.
Looking at the larger apartments, it's well over $2 psf including maintenance and taxes, and over $2.50 psf in most cases. That's insane in my book.
^the building was built at a time when buildings were trying to out-amenity each other. What you are paying more for there is the spa fees...
One of their sales agents or a broker familiar with the building can help explain the breakdown to you...
Looks like closings have picked up here. Looking at PropertyShark there's been almost $15m in closings in the last 6 weeks or so........including Tiki Barber.
Still a great place to wharehouse you rich grandparents who hate space and have mobility issues.
80's style low ceilings makes even your 4'9" grandma feel tall. Pool is good b/c it draws grandchildren for visits. Also gives grandma a crack at bedding down Tiki.
I get my RE advice from Tiki Barber, religious affiliation from Tom Cruise and Madonna, parenting skillz from Jon and Kate and political leanings from O'Reilly!
So you're a "cured" gay man?
cured??? is that like being pickled?
Does anybody have any further intel on this building? There was a spate of info several weeks ago - but nothing since.
Although they don't match up in the table, it looks like 2 of the last 3 apartments they sold went for 30% off the list price.
I still don't understand the strategy of not lowering list prices. I would think it would bring in more business when people realize you may be in their price range?
resale competing against sponsor. 9H is on the market for $794k.
02/27/2008Previous Sale recorded for $812,057.
08/06/2009Listed by Corcoran at $699,000.
12/04/2009Price decreased by 3% to $679,000.
01/01/2010Listing is no longer available.
01/13/2010Re-listed by Corcoran.
02/17/2010Price decreased by 4% to $649,000.
When taxes go up, that will make those monthlies mighty painful
all kinds of units for sale here...toured 4 today, 2 of which were available since prior purchasers mortgage financing fell through....thought the building had terrific amenities, but its proximity to the hospital resulted in non-stop ambulance sirens during our hour at the building, which could clearly be heard on floors 28-32. Noise factor could influence some here. Some of the layouts were very nice, others had very tiny rooms. They seemed quite flexible on price. Love anyones thoughts...
This chain of comments started 2 years ago and not much has changed. Get over this building and move on to something more desirable!!!
Like the building, love the amenities, love the high floor views, don't mind the 8 ft ceilings but can't get past the location. And its not the distance from the subway, but it is in an area of York that is really dead due to the hospital being just south of it and not having the retail right there.
You need the massage and spa just to undo the damage from the sirens.
Just saw that largest unit is in contract for 5.2 million! I like the building etc. but I hope prices come down!
ljane, thats only $1475/sq ft for the largest and best unit in the building. The per sq ft charges should be materially lower for smaller and lower floor units, so this isnt really expensive at all given the apt and the buildings amenities, in my view. The Brompton runs $1500-1900ish/sq ft easy and the building doesnt have all Miraval the amenities, tho it is very nice.
The Miraval pricing is weak at best, in my view, and there are many units available at $1200ish per sq ft at the moment, which is a price that would be shockingly cheap just a few qtrs or yr ago. Negotiation may result in even better pricing.
And, we may be nowhere near bottom in the Miraval or other buildings. Very encouraging for new buyers I would say, who have their sights set on 2011-2012 for purchasing.
When will the spa and the outdoor park be open?
Interested in 1-2 year 2 bedroom rental in this building beginning this fall. Any intel on upcoming availabilities or owners looking to lease?
when will this building turn into a rental?
It was a rental before it turned to "Living". To be continued...
Any info on when the amenities, other than the gym/pool, will be opened. The outdoor park was completed in the summer/spring and looks amazing, but not opened. The cafe, children's room, children's playground, rooms for classes, etc. are not finished yet either. I heard it is something to do with the CO. The apartments ok and pretty standard, but it is the amenities that make this something special and worth buying/owning.
Only 30 % sold.....price chops are coming
nope, try again
So these guys dropped the "Miraval Living" name and are now going with the less pretentious 515 East 72nd. Any speculation on what this means?
Miraval backed out of the project last week.
what does this mean for the timing of the opening of the common areas, many of which are still closed except pool/gym? and what are the contractual obligations of owners to pay the spa fees? I presume these would be renegotiated since Miraval no longer running the operation....
So the buyers bought a brand: Miraval -- and paid top dollar for it. What they have now is just another nice gym like any other building. The developer will engage another contractor to run the facility. This happened in Miami several times and when tenants sued saying they lost the value of prestige, they lost. Not that these owners can't try for the same but it will depend on their contract which probably favors the developer and in any case the suit would be a long, expensive slog. In short, these owners were sold a bill of goods.
Any news on what is happening with the spa facilities? I noticed there is finally furniture in the cafe.
American leisure is now running the spa. They are scheduled to open in April I think
Tough negotiators here! Not for the faint of heart. But the building's entrance, green space, finishes and amenities, in addition to balcony views--all gorgeous. The location is quiet enough to escape the busy streets of third and lexington aves, noise of 2nd avenue subway line construction process, but the project will improve property value once complete. Sotheby's tasteful corporate offices are located across the street, which I think they have been strategic about as well. Also excellent rental potential as an investment--if you can meet their (ever-rising) price.
The amenities at this bldg are indeed nice.
As of July 2012, 515e72 has sold a large number of apartments to corporates in bulk deals and at discounts.
This means 2 things:
a) You will see high influx of different types of corporate workers coming for short 2-3 days and the "hotel" culture which might put off some families from buying here
b) If and when you go to sell, and the corporates are also selling at the time, the price this corporate would sell at would be much lower than yours to still give them a profit-so timing of sale would be important to recoup your investment
hospital sale ... not so dire after all.
call it what it is...high end assisted living
My guess is the hospital is going to want a seat on the board of managers.
To Be Continued...
Falco, I wish my golden years could afford to be so "assisted" but I think I'll have to settle for the spaless life.