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We are interested in buying 2 bedroom+office and still see only two units in contract. I've seen some new developments turning into a rental building because of the low sales. Are we making a big mistake? Or this is a chance to get bargin. Does anyone know how Alchemy's going to survive two new developments(they've got another one on UWS) in this market?
The Isis is a great project and priced well....I say go for it!
I think the fact that thier website has an add that says they are offering a discount and closing costs sums it up. between georgica, lucida, azure, isis and bromptom, i think theyre gonna have a hard time
an excellent choice especially, if your relocating from Munchkin Land with mountains of cash that you need to rid yourself of. Isis is the first choice of all those that hate space and money. The best part is you can clean the place in 5 minutes.
Word to the wise...Isis...isn't there a structural problem wrt the windows fitting the structure correctly? Didn't they need to do some last minute patch job to make the whole thing hold together? Is that going to be a problem down the road? What about the foundation issues???
Anyway, welcome to New York where everyone is the wicked witch of the west.
sjm223 if bullsh*t was cement you would would be I-95.
sjm223...please give us the reasons for your positive review.
Size, finishes, location, price-points are not bad at all.
much better off at georgica...higher ceilings, better views, better layouts, 1 or 2 away from 50% sold, good RELATIVE value, better amenaties...
I like Georgica's kitchen. I am considering two bedroom apt at Georgica, too. With the same money, we can get 2 bedroom + office at Isis(on 3rd / 4th floor / 5th). For future resale, having an extra room will be nice. High risk but more room, I guess. Nothing comes for free in Manhattan.
Correct....extra room is better. How high are the ceilings at Georgica?
The 2 bedroom with home office is a "good value".
Can't remember the floor height at Georgica but the unit I saw was bright and had good light though it was facing north-east. Full height window walls help. Bathroom fixtures were not as nice. Isis faces south but I am sure Georgica will get more light because it is on a heigher floor with no buildings in front. The view wasn't good, though. Some ugly apts. But we all get used to that anyways. Plus, express train line on 84th adds value. I guess after all, it's my call but I really want an extra room. I am trying to make a decision soon. I've been spending too much time on streeteay.com. ^^
Can you say "Life with the 2nd Avenue Construction". 10 years at least.
no major issue unless u r near entrance/exits.
That's what I heard, too. I was worried and researched a little and the construction will be underground on 77th and 2nd. But, we never know how the construction will affect the buildings with its vibration and soil settlement. Geotech engineers are working hard on it but we can never tell how soil and earthquake will behave. It's adding high risk on my investment, too.
Ask the 92nd and 2nd Avenue crowd how they enjoy the BLAST warnings now in effect.
ceiling height at georgica is 10-11ft on some floors. i havent seen all but the ones i have have much better ceiling height than isis. 2nd avenue construction is a pain in the a$$ for a while but i think a long term positive. entrance will ultimately be north west corner of 86th which is actually good for georgica which is southeast corner of 85th street. but yes, id be worried about living through construction. i look at it as a temporary sacrifice. and probalby worth the value here. isis will have these issues too but georgica is just much better all around. if you buy before it gets a bunch more sold, you will either lose than everyone else or make money depending on your view of the market. but i think the product is very good.
why do u feel georgica is better? I would be interested to know...
higher ceilings, potentially better views, better layouts, better value, 1 or 2 away from 50% sold as of last month, better amenaties, better options in terms of layouts, great roofdeck with playground, big gym, nicer lobby, construction done, elios a block away, poke on the block, great stuff for kids...
negatives are: subway construction, some layouts are bad, developer needs to sell a bunch, building shape is not great, 2nd avenue is viewed by some as not great...
sjm223 how are things going over at Alchemy Properties?
Must be under a lot of pressure. Good Luck!
Second Ave Subway is not a problem for this building (there's a selling point!)
don't work there...
what sh*thole walk-up do u live in?
I do live in a walk-up (5th floor) on the same block!!!
Not exactly an orifice but, I could work from home.
Just jostling with your shameless Isis promotion.
To be fair...Isis answers more to your orifice comment than many of the new projects in the neighborhood.
It’s sales record speaks for itself.
By the way, Isis really does have many design and construction flaws that account for it’s many delays.
I hope you’ll be happy there. For the same money ANYONE could do much better.
Then again....there are people that think wheat grass tastes delicious.
You know the layouts of the A and B units are real bummer. The second bdrm in the A line and the 3rd bdrm in the B line are not real bdrms in that bathrooms are not convenient or in the case of the B line lack shower or tub. I guess that is where the office feature rub is.
I believe it will make a great rental by May 2010...
i agree on isis. may be an interesting play for a bulk purchase at a price that makes renting them out economic. for purhcase, i strongly suggest you look at georgica. i am. im close to signing there. hoping to delay until they sell a few more units...
Thank you all. I wonder what the bad layouts in Georgica are. The two bedrooms I saw were 10A and 10B. Huge kitchen with smaller bedrooms. I like big kitchens so it's not a problem. I'm afraid I've missed good layouts already.
Does the Georgica have lot line windows like those in Isis? They both have the Overhang feature, just like the Brompton. Another reason for the Rental vs Buy at Isis. Why suffer or worry about a buy investment, just rent!
im not sure what the situation with lotline windows are at the georgica. i think i read they had easements on 3 of the exposures but worth looking in to. if you find out, please let me know.
The purchased Air Rights so no issue
What we witnessed in the run up of unchecked real estate prices for condo development, was developers who went to extremes to build "something". That included Isis, Georgica, Azure, ... the list goes one that stretched the limits of a developed site. Deals were cut and the developers thought all they had to was build and the buyers will come.
Well the party is over.
may be true but reality is more than anything credit drives people's decision to purchase. and with credit opening up a tad, there has been a clear uptick in purchase activity. once this development supply is absorbed (which may be in years), the supply/demand equation for good, high-end condo's will drive prices higher. it's a crazy island...i think the only thing that will really hit prices is higher rates and that will likely come one day but will be interesting to see what the supply/demand picture looks like then. if you look at manhattan condos against most other condo's its done extremely well. lets say it's down 20% from the peak, that is really not bad considering the run-up it had and how much everything else went down.
The fact is that there are some new condo developments that have not been "tested" to see if they work. Because of their quirky features (i.e. the developers threw in the "kitchen sink") to appeal to the next buyer in the run up, the developers hoped to pass that risk on to the blindless buyer. Well buyers have had to get smarter in this market and it will be hard to convince them of these "leaps in faith".
keithw - re: Georgica, why do you think that the building is "1 or 2 away from 50% sold"? In the 5 months since the first closing, ACRIS records 12 closings (excluding the super's unit (2B) and the commercial unit that were both transferred by the building LLC to other affiliates of the developer). Developer claims another 6 in contract, per SE. 18/58 = 31%. It would be typical to have a couple to a few weeks worth of closings (a.k.a., maybe a couple of units in this case, give slow pace of closings) completed but not yet in ACRIS. Maybe that gets them to 1/3. And maybe there are more in contract that are not shown as such in SE (like 2 of the 12 actual closing that went directly to ACRIS without an active SE listing - still a small fraction of the cases, though). Anyway, half sold seems like a real stretch. Hint: be careful not to embarrass yourself by answering, "Because the sales office told me they are 50% sold."
sjm - "The purchased Air Rights so no issue" Does anyone know how far along the blocks they did this? I am not challenging the statement at all, as I don't have anywhere near all the facts, but hopefully someone who has looked more closely at the building knows some detail.
What is clear is that they have air rights over the low-rise building that takes the corner chunk out of the Georgica footprint. Part of the Georgica actually overhangs this building, so clearly they have that locked up. Same for the next building to the north along 2nd Avenue (Heidelberg Restaurant) - overhang = air rights. The big question I have is whether the air rights to the north also include the other two low-rise buildings between the Heidelberg and the 86th Street corner. The other question is what rights they have going east along the north side of 85th, although in this direction zoning (mid-block height restrictions) will probably reduce the risk quite a bit regardles of air right position. The final question would be air rights over the run-down brownstones a few buildings along 86th, east of 2nd. If that plot got redeveloped it would also block the north/northeast view from the Georgica, although not a badly as something right on the SE corner of 2nd.
Last comment for now. Back to Isis. 2nd Avenue subway is really not an issue here. Initial street level construction stops at about 82nd (near 83rd st entrance to 86th st station) and picks up again about 73rd (near 72nd st station). Isis has a big buffer in both directions. Re: underground construction and risk of soil settlement and vibration, the tunnels are being bored, not excavated or blasted (except for boring machine "launch box" area in the low '90s), and they're deep - something like 75' below street level. At the Isis, the boring machine will chew right by through the rock 75' and no one will have any idea that it has come and gone. There is no soil excavation that would cause settling - unless the tunnel caved in, I suppose. That location is probably the most benign place from a subway construction standpoint anywhere south of about 100th st.
sdlnltr: Your dismissal of the subway construction is due to a "big buffer" between stations. How about when the crew has to move the ultilities to the sides and the traffic is shifted and sidewalks are narrowed on 2nd Ave. What if they find bedrock on 77th Street? Just look up on 92nd Street and envision the exclusive life you will experience for years at the Isis.
Drill baby, Drill...
The utility relocation is north and south of 96th st for the 96th st station and tunnel boring machine "launch box", 82nd to 87th st for the 86th st station and 73rd to about 69th for the 72nd st station. In between there is no surface level work (utility relocation, traffic shifting, sidewalk cutback, etc.) because the only construction is the tunnel being bored 75' or whatever below the surface. Re: bedrock, I certainly hope they find it at 77th st, and all along the line for that matter. The point of boring tunnels that deep is to dig in stable bedrock. If you were even slightly informed about the SAS project, you would understand that 92nd street, where they basically moved all the utilities and hollowed out a cavern the width of the avenue and several stories deep (for the "launch box"), and 77th st have nothing to do with each other.
From MTA.info. I guess your point is that E77 isn't effected. If that's true, that's big of you.
74th Street to 68th Street & 78th Street to 79th Street
Traffic is shifted to WEST SIDE of Second Avenue
Work zone is set up on the EAST SIDE of Second Ave
The EAST SIDE work zone will be approximately 40 FOOT wide, plus 7'sidewalk
No Standing at anytime on the EAST SIDE of Second Ave
No Standing on the WEST SIDE 7AM-10AM and 4PM-7PM Monday-Friday
No Standing on WEST SIDE 10 AM-4PM, EXCEPT trucks loading and unloading
Parking ALLOWED on WEST SIDE 7PM-7AM Weekdays and all day Saturday and Sunday
streetview and your point is.......? Where do u live?
CPW buildings all sit over subways.
Correct, completed subways.
Ever live next to a construction site. What was the most annoying part of the building under construction. Was it the below grade period? This 2nd Avenue project is a multiple of any building construction. For new condo developments to ignore this quality of life impact on purchasers is to wish the moon is made of cheese. Point made.
regarding georgica, i believe the streeteasy information regarding contracts signed is inaccurate. a friend has bought a unit that is currently listed for sale. also, 2 mortgage banks have told me they are ready to lend there based on data they received that there are 15 units closed and 17-18 with deposits down. it's possible some of the deposits down are stale. not sure how anyone would have that information. i believe they did get FNM/FRE approval too but im not sure how relevant that is. also, i dont think the sale's office is allowed to lie about this but im not an expert. regarding air rights, i highly doubt they have the air rights on the stuff on 86th and 2nd or anything other than the stuff immediately adjacent.
Interesting comments on the construction. Thank you.
"I guess your point is that E77 isn't effected. If that's true, that's big of you."
Actually, my point, as I believe I mentioned above, is that the construction stops at 82nd st and starts again at 73rd st and the Isis is at 77th. You should get off the internet and go check it out.
"streetview and your point is.......?"
Let me give that one a shot. His point is that he has formed a preconceived view and is going to make damn sure that he doesn't let inconvenient facts intrude on his conclusion. The wierd thing is that a preconveived view that the Isis is in for a tough time sounds pretty sensible. There are lots of arguments that you could use to back up that view, but subway construction FUD isn't one of them.
"Where do u live?"
Apparently not close enough to 2nd ave to know where the construction is.
sdlnstr: Did you walk by 78th Street and 2nd Avenue, this week? Did you bear left or right at the median divide in the middle of 2nd Avenue? Go ahead and ignore reality.
Let me ask a question. If you were going to live somewhere for say the next 10 years would you live in the heart of a construction zone?
why do u think only one person is in contract at The Isis in all this time? The building is really nice and they pay Transfer and Mansion taxes.
2nd Avenue, are you kidding? trouble. nightmare for years. would make a nice rental.
Nice building....only one in contract is all of this time.....heading for a luxury rental for sure!!!
Stay Away!!! They have moved on to another project and are trying to dump units!!
Still only 2 in Contract!
Have u been there recently? How do things look?
anyone go to the Open House today?
what happened to the mosaic facade??
according to the interview in sunday's NYTimes, they have '7 or 8' contracts signed.
I know.....streeteasy has 2! which is correct?
our new UES neighbors:
gee thanks loveues for feeding into the frenzy of 2nd avenue hatred wtf
Saw that loveues. Anyone seen engineers reports about integrity of cantelevers in blasting zones?
It's like guys who multiply the number of women they have slept with. They say 7 or 8 signed, so 2 or 3 sounds abot right.
Up to 4 in contract now. So claims the developer anyway. Closings soon?
This will be interesting to watch. None of 255 East 74th, Brompton, Georgica or Lucida (presented in the order in which closings started) blew up, despite many dire predictions, including from me. I would put Isis at more of a Georgica tier in the market and below the other 3, but that's just an impression. If Isis doesn't blow up, bear hopes for a UES new construction train wreck will be down to the Azure. But what a great candidate the Azure is for a meltdown!
2.5 years and only 4 in Contract....what's wrong?
Hey check out 1055 Park Avenue if you want to see a train wreck. 87th and Park Avenue in the hood with Lucida, Brompton and Georgica.
streetview - what is your obsession w/1055 Park? Do you live next door and it blocked your view? Are you offended by the aesthetics?
I think this is going to be one hard sell.
isis or 1055?
Aesthetics is a strong word for 1055 Park Avenue. Have you seen it lately. What is unfinished is unfinished. What is finished is poorly done.
did they build it on the grave of some family member? did you bury a timecapsule there in the 1st grade and now you'll never get it back?
If I sell you steak, but I give you hamburger, do you care?
i believe this is supposed to be about isis. and why are there so many insults of contributors when we should be insulting the shlock they are putting up? we're all here with the same interests. back to isis. has not turned out like they wanted. website says "striking mosaic facade". uh where? green granite for 3 floors and then black plastic panels? lovely.
Yeah....real "striking intricate facade"!! It's Ugly Plastic!
I know. It looks really cheap and it's an awful color. What facade?
Now 3 in Contract.....5B backed out?
What is up?...in contract, now not in contract....
Contracts have been out for weeks on other units.....What is going on?
Yeah, and their website says July 2010 occupancy!!
I-Sis? Should be I-Sore.
Isis is the Goddess of motherhood, magic and fertility.
This Isis is a little more Crack Mom.
Looks like Dark Grey Plastic Panels. I'd worry about the integrity of the windows and cantilevers.
Very cheap looking. They should change to a rental building!
What do you expect for only 1.4 million for a basement unit. Who wants to spend that much so you can listen to the 2nd Ave. noise from constructions and drunks?
The suicide rate for a basement apartment is particularly low.
It is extremely difficult to kill yourself jumping out a basement window.
Do any human beings (other than realtors) have the words "price-points" in their vocabulary? It just sounds so creepy.
Two of my favorite things in the world are real estate and humor. Reading Streeteasy gives me both. Thanks to all of you real funny people out there. And the realtors are hysterical too. I was reading a co-op ad recently that was described as having a "cooks kitchen". There was a pullman kitchen without an inch of counter space. I was rolling on the floor at that one. The cook had to be juggling all of the ingredients in the air before they fell into the pots and pans.
Are they abandoning the project and changing to rentals?
Maybe they would convert to rental if the can actually finish the work. Unfortunately I have to see that crap everyday when I walk by and when I look out the window.
I hear u!
To answer your questions, there are 4 units in contract: 9A, 10A, 5B and 6B. They are 1 unit away from declaring the Offering Plan effective (5 out of 32 units to get 15%). I know this because I am a broker and I have a buyer in negotiations for one of the units. In my opinion, Isis is better than Georgica. As the UES goes, the E 70s are more desirable than the E 80s (and the E 80s are btter than the E 90s). Most of the good layouts at Georgica are sold, leaving behind bad layouts with no views. Th posts here about the 2nd Ave subway construction are completly overblown. At 77th St, it is all underground. New York is not a museum, it has to change. Just FYI- streeteasy and trulia are notorious for having erroneous contract and closed sales data. If you want the truth, contact a broker or someone who is a member of REBNY and has access to the RLS database.
15% of 32 is 5.25, wouldn't they need 6?
Do you work for Alchemy?
15% of 32 is 4.8
No I don't, I work for a different brokerage. I represent a buyer not the sponsor
Regardless, can anybody out there explain why they have been marketing this building for 2 years and they are struggling just to get a few in contract? I disagree with your assessments LIVE4NYCRE about 2nd ave subway; there is going to be an inordinate amount of displacement, noise, retail disturbance, etc. If you read the progress reports even promulgated by MTA it appears that the bedrock is so hard, the drill bits have experienced fatigue and they are speaking of needing to blast again in certain zones. We were looking for places but decided to just stay away from 2nd Avenue altogether. With all the inventory out there, are the higher floors really worth over $1700/ft, and lower floors (closer to the street chaos) worth over $1200?There are too many unknowns associated with this location. Even with effectiveness declared, in selling 5-6 units in two years, at that rate, the building will be sold out in 2024.
It was simply a function of pricing. The bldg was priced astronomically high initially, and then in April and May 2010, they did 2 separate price cuts, and all apts below a certain floor were cut between 8 and 17%. $1200 per sq ft for a lower floor is abt right for a new condo bldg in this location with low monthlies. If you look at older condo bldgs from the 1980s and 90s, they suffer from high monthlies. Tax abatements and low CCs are great amenities in themselves. Also, once they have the Offering Plan declared effective, all those buyers who are financing will be able to purchase (before the OP is declared effective, you have to rely on cash buyers willing to take the risk because no banks will give a mortgage these days without an OP declared effective). I did not mean to completely dismiss the SAS project-- it will certainly cause disruptions. But to say that it in itself diminishes the bldg and will cause it to turn rental is ludacris. It is a well priced bldg with nice finishes and they seem negotiable on prices and also may chip in on closing costs. I think it is worth a 2nd look. Just my 2 cents.
Price cuts or not, it is still months and months and nobody is buying. Something must be wrong. Structural integrity? Windows? There were numerous construction problems at the beginning. I understand you represent a buyer but the record seems to speak for itself. What happens once your buyer closes but sales keep at this snails pace? Is he/she ready to be in an empty building?
not selling cuz it's priced to hi in a mkt that is weak and weakening further--to move these now, the devper will need to price attractively--soem of these guys clearly would prefer to blow up than to sell at prices that clear their inventory
I disagree with live4nycre. I live in a highrise blding in the 80's on first, built in 1991. I have a 1500sqft apt and my monthly cc are $1100 and my re taxes are about $800 a month. My building is a fullservice building with doorman, conceiarge, porters, backyard and gym. my building, which renovated the halls last year- so everything is updated, is selling at about $900 a sq ft and my blding is supposed to be a highly desirable bldg. I dont think new construction on 2nd ave low floor is worth 1200 a sq foot- and i guess no one else buys it either that is why they are not selling. Also, sont you think it is strange that they don't have any 1800sqft or 2000sq foot apts? everything seems to be 1600 sq feet and that is small for a 3 bedroom.
Agreed Rob....and resale value will be laughable.
Rob360, I commend you for picking a well managed building because most condo apts that size would have much higher CC's. I think Isis is priced right in line with all the new dev's out there on the UES- it is priced around the same as the Laurel (400 E 67th-- and that's all the way at 1st) and Georgica. The structural issues are resolved as I understand it and they have the TCO for up to the 16th floor (1 floor below the PH- the roof is pretty much done now when I saw it). As with any new dev, it takes time to sell everything off, but the developer was smart to only do 32 units-- that is the way new devs will go. Something like the Azure on E 91st, well you can forget it. it will take years to sell that thing off because there are 100s of units. Once Isis gets the 5th contract, all those who need to finance will be able to get a mortgage and the pace of sales will increase. And nycre18- I disagree. The Seville across the street at 300 E 77th which was a new dev in 2003, re-sales continue to beat out initial purchase prices. Most people have trouble seeing the bigger picture.
Yeah but, The Seville has been occupied for many years. How can you compare that to an empty building? 3-4 in contract over 2 years!
Has the building been inspected for Bedbugs?
Live4nycre you are wrong about financing. Just because a bldg sells enough to be effective does in no way mean it's easier to get a loan. Current fnma regs are that a bldg needs 70% to qualify. Also, This developer has been saying that financing has been available thru their own people for a year now and still nontakers Obviously you want to save face with your buyer, but consensus out here is that something is really wrong with this picture.
NYCRE18: you are totally correct!