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How much do you think the following construction costs be for a prewar 1000 sq ft apt:
1. Complete redo of bathroom tile, fixtures. Replace bath-tub with shower stall.
2. Redo flooring throughout
3. 5 solid core doors and associated door casings
4. Reconfiguration and slight expansion of kitchen space. No new appliances. New cabinets (stock), counters and flooring. Reconfigure location of existing appliances within existing water lines
5. Crown moldings
6. New fireplace mantle and hearth
Standard desired would be reasonably high-end (but not over-the-top). Walls are in very good condition as is electrical.
Any thoughts greatly appreciated.
Lets say its medium high-end,
Flooring: 15-18k, new base molding 5k
Doors- (5) with frames- 7-10k
Kitchen-40-60k (have to make sure you can do wet over dry as far as the expansion)
Crown moldings: 10k
Fireplace ? need to see it.
If you would like i would be happy to take a ook at it and give you a real proposal
About $130-150k. Depends because moving the sink over a foot is easy. Moving the stove across the kitchen is more work. Any electrical work is very expensive. If walls are not as great as you say, that poses cost issues for mouldings. Lots of variables. Could go higher, but I think $150K is realistic without cutting too many corners. $130K will require more cost-controls and compromises.
Devil's in the detail. Could be 150k sure, could be 50k (if the super does it on the down low with cheap materials).
How strict is your co-op? What level of plans need to be filed with DOB? Level of insurance? Do electrical and plumber subs need to be separately insured? Limitations on work hours/schedule.
1) Gut bathroom, no change in fixture location, with the exception of shower stall. 20k if you do a high-end-ish job with custom shower door, tiled shower (as opposed to drop-in shower stall).
2) Redo flooring. What does that mean? Remove existing? Sub-floor? What about baseboards throughout? I assume your subfloor is okay, just new floors. You're looking at $10/sqft w/o getting into baseboards, etc.
3) Kitchen. Stock cabs work if and only if your kitchen doesn't need custom sizing. So you're going to re-use current appliances but move them. I don't know if that's worth it. The labor costs the way they are,
might as well get new appliances. 30k will buy a nice Kraftmaid-esque kitchen appliances, if you are talking just moving the sink and d/w.
4) Crown mouldings - depends on what you get and if there is going to be substantial patching. BTW, you haven't said anything about painting. You will need a paint job.
5) Is this a deco fp? Or the real thing. An off-the-shelf mantle will run 1k max on the Internet, hearth - custom marble (please don't do fugly granite) or tiles, could be 1k .
I respectfully disagree with nyc10023's bathroom estimate. Far too low. This poster said a high-end reno. "Reasonably highend" which I take to mean not "outlandishly highend." So we are talking normal, highend. That to me means nickel plated hardware, for example, or the like. Faucets, shower fixtures, thermostatic valve, toilet supply lines, towel bars, etc will come to $1500-2000 alone. A Robern medicine chest will be 4 figures if it is anything but the smallest. These things add up quick. High-end tile? Like calcatta marble in a running bond pattern? That's beautiful and not considered over-the-top at all. Check out what that'll cost installed. And high-end means frameless tempered glass wall/door for shower enclosure -- that runs about $3000. Then there is the cost of what you do not see: demo the entire room down to the studs and rebuilding it. If doing a tiled shower stall, then that means likely having to do a whole complicated process to the floor and drain to create a properly graded, lead-lined waterproof shower pan. Surely electrical will be required and an upgrade makes sense if you are opening up the walls--it may even be required, I don't know. And if the toilet is a flush-o-meter tankless type, many buildings require a tank toilet replace it in any reno. If the rough-in needs re-doing, that'll cost, too. A high-end bathroom will cost $40K easily when all is said and done. It'll look like a jewel box and be stunning and tasteful if done well, but it ain't happening for $20K. $20K gets you nice-enough...not high end.
I was going to say $125K, so that's right in line with what you're hearing. Try to keep your old toilet if you can, the new ones are awful.
DG Neary Realty
FWIW: this reno will likely require an architect for drawings for design development and review by the building engineer, a back and forth between the engineer and the architect to resolve any issues, permit applications and expeditor's fees, bidding and review of GC proposals, and if you are wise construction oversight. Estimate: $20K. If you want the architect to find and specify all the finishes that'll cost more; if you do that leg work and let architect tweak it, that will cost less. If you fail to invest in highly detailed and VERY specific drawings that are incorporated into the GC's contract, then plan on cost overruns of at least 20-40%. Good drawings are the best insurance you can buy for a successful renovation.
I disagree with several people. 20K is not even close for a mid-high end bathroom. The labor including the plumber(for a good contractor) is 16-18k. Then you have the purchases which could be 12-16k. There are plenty of new nice toilets
Primer - it's not the style of the new toilets that's the problem, it's the mandated "low flow"design that causes problems. Though people seem to think the Toto toilets work even with the low flow.
Most low-flows, including some by Duravit and Toto, require some kind of stylish brush that tries to hide its purpose to be kept next to the toilet. Wasn't so 50 years ago. The price we pay for saving the planet a flush at a time.
Actually Kyle, we hurt the planet with those damn low flows - because you just have to flush more than once to avoid trouble :)
ph41, quite correct. I was thinking only of pee.
I mean, one low flush for all the times a person just pees. But yes, more involved activities do most often require repeated low-flow flushing no matter what anyone claims. I have typed all I can about this.
It's hardly an exhaustive (pun?) selection, and the grammar can be off in spots, but this west coast plumber has some good little reviews of terlets:
Ph41, I agree however if you do put 30-40 k into a bathroom it really would be nicer with a new toilet no?
Primer- Frankly, the low flow are so bad that it would almost be worth it to sneak one in from Canada, where they're still legal.
Sorry - it would almost be worth it to sneak a full flow in from Canada.
Thank you to all. This is extremely helpful and generally consistent. 100% agreed on spending $ to get he plans right and detailed. If I spent $40K to do a nice bathroom (which is actually quite comfortable space wise) with your various suggestions, am I significantly hurting resale value by not having a tub?
16k-18k for a plumber who just plumbs and nothing else for a bathroom where all the fixtures stay where they are? Even the shower (I'm assuming) uses the same location drain & water inputs as the tub. And where is your guarantee that it will be the ACTUAL plumber who shows up to do the work, as opposed to his underling who's getting paid 20/hr? Yeah, okay.
I agree that the materials can be high - but depends on how you want to achieve the high-end effect.
Personally, yes, I would spend $2k on faucets. But I would not spend hundreds on a towel rail or toilet holder. Blomus has nice stuff that looks just as good for less. Sink, countertop, cab, medicine cab (I have Robern too) - shld be 2-3k max. Stone - you can go crazy trying to get all the pieces from a single slab and have the congruent pieces next to each other. Not worth it, IMO and you will not get a penny extra for your "high end" bathroom on resale. Get a sensible mid-range basketweave mosaic stone tile (or similar), clean white or neutral ceramic tile on the wall with maybe some natural stone accents (be careful not to go overboard). Tada. Try to stay under $10k for materials. $30k for labor? Forget it. If I got a quote like that with a GC, I might pay it, but only if I expected such perfection in the job and with the full realization that it's not necessarily going to make a diff. on resale.
Re resale: tubs have broader appeal. Stalls gorgeously done could seal a deal though. My partner and I never use tubs and jumped at prospect of expanding space by just a shower with a glass partition. What I'm saying is there are buyers who will find the stall more appealing but realize you will not be creating a space with broadest appeal possible. Assuming this is 1 bedroom (did you say that?), it is also slightly less an issue since the need to bath kids is less a concern to buyers because this isn't an apartment for people with a kid--at least not ideally. I say go for it.
Bathroom expenses come in strange ways. Like plumbing. You open up the walls and find 1/2" copper pipes. Your GC explains that 3/4" piping would increase flow into the shower's thermostatic valve and make the rain head or the like squirt out water with better pressure. So what do you do? Cheap out on a minor upgrade that will make the shower much better? Of course not--you upgrade the pipes. Then there is the window sill you were going to leave; but with the new marble shower walls you know a matching sill would be much nicer--oops, another $300. And so it goes. Just be ready. Spec everything you can down to the model/SCU numbers in the drawings that are bid upon. I did a similar renovation with a total of 4 minor change orders by thinking it all through like an obsessed crazy person before the job began.
But the way OP is talking, it sounds like this is not his forever apt. And yes, I would nix that 3/4" piping if you're going to be out in a few years. You're NOT going to recoup that $, and I don't care if you wax poetic over the 3/4" pipe in your FSBO listing. Or your marble sill.
And I speak as someone who has over-engineered and over-designed. Those heated bathroom floors - money down the drain.
Nyc, I didnt say the plumber was 16-18k, I said that labor including the plumber was 16-18k.
Dwn, It does hurt resale if its your only bathroom and its not that the price will be less but you might not have as many people who want it, for example a young couple with a child needs a tub.
Kyle is right about the extra plumbing costs and when i said the plumbing price was included i was talking about changing all the branch lines back to the riser as most buildings in Manhattan require
Ah sorry, I still think 16-18k for labor is high in most cases. 22-24k for materials in a 1bed, 1bath, 1000sqft apt, you are totally overshooting the market unless you plan to sell immediately after the reno. I would budget no more than 10k for materials.
Let's parse the labor costs. Changing fixtures, but leaving the locations the same should not trigger a DOB filing unless your bldg requires it. And if you get a GC, is the GC doing the plumbing himself or is the GC bringing in a plumber to do it (different from having a licensed plumber "supervise")? I have worked with a few GCs (all with good reputations) and let me tell you that you will be heartsick when you find out exactly what the person wielding the hammer gets paid.
10K for materials really? Where are you getting that from? They said reasonably high end. it costs at least 10k for tiles, showerbody, medicine cabinet, light fixture accessories, vanity (custom?) sink, faucet. GC's are not allowed (and why would you want to) to the plumbing. This isnt changing a faucet, this is changing all the plumbing lines as well as putting in a lead pan.
nyc10023: you misinterpret perhaps what I said. I am not talking about the most sound investment. I am saying that once you start a reno which you will live in for even 4-5 years, it is very easy and common to start saying, "Well, for a few hundred dollars here or there that will make this nicer for me to live in, why not just spend the money? That shower that pumps a waterfall on my head for just $700 more? Why not. And do I really want the ugly sill to detract from all this money I'm spending on the rest of the bath? Of course not--$300 is worth it to not hate the ugly sill every morning I shower..." Etc. From investment perspective, you will not recover anything you call "high end" over tasteful middle of the road. All it will likely do is make your unit sell faster. But in the same line of apts in a building, most buyers deem them virtually identical in terms of comps and will not pay significantly more for a highend reno than a medium one.
Here's a renovation question:
In general, does it add or detract value from a classic 6 to combine the kitchen with the maids room?
I live in a classic six in the village in good original condition that I bought last year. I am currently in the process of planning some renovations--nothing as drastic as dwntwn is talking about: no new floors, only replacing a couple of doors, very minor electric, a couple of built-ins, custom closets, paint etc. some people would probably redo the bathrooms, but they have all the original fixtures from the late 1920s, which I like, and they are in good shape, so we are keeping them.
The 64,000 question is the kitchen. Right now we have a perfectly fine but totally unspectacular galley kitchen. It is right next to a very generous maids room. The maids room has it's own full bathroom and a closet, and it is entered from a hallway, not from the kitchen or from a pantry area. We could combine the maids room and kitchen, which, at this point in our lives, would make a lot of sense. We don't have kids yet, and we like to entertain, and it is sort of annoying to be stuck in the small, out-of-the-way kitchen, while our guests are in the living room or dining room. And we don't really use the maids room for anything right now: the second bedroom serves as our library.
That said, once we have even one child the additional bedroom could start to seem very important. And, on resale, would we be significantly reducing the value of the apartment by removing a bedroom?
Hi Dow Twn, I have been doing renovations for about 10 years, I completely love every aspect of the process. My last experience (3 bed 3 bath apt UWS). Had numerous GC's come to quote, finally met one, who after I walked him around the apt for an hour, showing him everything I wanted gave me a price the next day (he has been doing this long enough to know what things are going to cost him). I then spent the next 10 days creating a 32 page contract with every conceivable detail of the project. The GC read it said that is what he quoted on stuck to the price he gave and totally fulfilled the contract on time and on budget, even though he was the lowest quote by 15%.
Yes as detailed as I am, there were a few situations that I didn't make an allowance for:
1. Funny enough the 3/4 inch copper piping I didn't specify, however he didn't even mention it, just did it - do it right, that is in the quote even thou not in writing.
2. I had a prewar bathroom, that had somehow built up 1 ft of extra thickness in tiles over the years on the walls (I had guessed 4 inches of demo off the wall)...he kept going and said "for one of my demo guys to do 1 1/2 extra days and a little bigger rubbish removal bill and you get an extra 8 inches in your bathroom...it had to be done for the end result"
Plus other examples.
My point being, you have an idea now what it is going to cost. Be as specific as you can in a contract and select a GC who wants the end result to be a great job, who isn't going to charge you on everything that comes up, because things do come up and that is where the price can suddenly vary greatly. Plus most importantly how the GC deals with problems because as important as the bottom line is a fair person who is not adding stress to a situation that could be stressful is invaluable too.
I am doing a project in Florida at the moment otherwise I wouldn't give out my GC's name in NYC, Brian Egan 917 417 9965. The best GC I have ever worked with. If you do decide to do the above work give him a call to see the project, let me know after if it was one of the best referrals you ever got, he was for me.
Good luck in your project.
I think it is a good idea to expand the kitchen and it should increase value to your home, or if they allow you can turn it into a laundry room which would do the same
What is the name of Brians company, from time to time i get to busy and maybe I can refer him to those clients that I am unable to take on. Doe she have a website or listing with the bbb?
Happyrenter: in your case, I would look into the possibility of using the DR as a 3rd bedroom, and the maid's as a dining room (either open to the kitchen or semi-open).
http://img.streeteasy.com/nyc/image/79/2615379.jpg - DR is now a 3rd bedroom, maid -> DR
or http://www.corcoran.com/images/media/ListingFloorplans/1974948.1.gif - same deal.
primer: you really think a laundry room is considered more valuable than a bedroom? that's interesting. not what i would have thought.
nyc10023: that would be a great idea, but not possible with the layout of our dining room--or only possible by really mutilating the layout in an unattractive way.
I would try to make the kitchen work before turning a 3 br into a 2 br with large kitchen, ESPECIALLY if you're going to add little people into the mix (but also for resale).
another thought - can you split one of the larger bedrooms into 2 smaller bedrooms? the 6's in our building easily convert DR's into bedrooms and lrg bedrooms into 2 smaller ones, but maybe your layout is less flexible.
I dont know if I would consider a maids room a bedroom, how amny sq ft is this maids room?
The more I think about it, its not a 3 bedroom going to a 2 bedroom, its a 2 bedroom with a maids room, the maids rooms that I have seen from way back when is hardly a bedroom
" a very generous maids room. The maids room has it's own full bathroom and a closet, and it is entered from a hallway, not from the kitchen or from a pantry area."
It's basically a real (small) bedroom.
our maid's room is one of the smallest that i've ever seen - about 6.5'x 8' of usable space. we use it as a guest bedroom. it has a window, a closet, a double bed, a small dresser, and an attached full bath (small tub and sink) w/ a window.
happy renter, we bought a classic six last winter and completed the total gut renovation in august. we too had a maid's room (7x12) with window and bathroom. though it was suggested over and over that we take the maids room to make an eat-in kitchen, i resisted and am so glad. instead, we took down the wall between the kitchen and dining room and expanded the kitchen almost a foot into the dining room. then we re-erected the wall with a beautiful arched opening into the kitchen and added a counter bar to it from the dining room side. the galley kitchen became a chef's workplace and the guests can talk to me while i am cooking. we just love it and it gives us the flexibility of having the maids room as a third bedroom for guests or grandkids.
I prefer Rosina's approach to combining the maid's with the kitchen. Maid's rooms make great flexible spaces and are part of what make a Classic 6 or 7 so special. Ours maid's room isn't huge, but it makes a very functional office for two people.
That does sound like a very generous maids room. Then it does make sense to keep it a room. My mistake
Yes - it serves as a great flex space. It even become our master suite for about a month or so while our youngest went through some sleep issues - somehow the smallest person in the house took over the largest bedroom!? I also like bathing the kids in the maid's bath b/c of the layout (more open space next to tub than in master bath) and low height of the tub.
errr, "became". yikes!
also, hubby will shower in maid's bath when he has to leave before the rest of us are up in the morning. there are tons of reasons to keep it.
From what I've seen on the market, the alterations that least destroy value (and may even add value):
1) swap maid's room with DR - retain a more formal DR, get a large 3rd bedroom
2) create eat-in kitchen by combining with maid's room, create 3rd bedroom from DR, and have a flex dining area in the foyer (expandable table that gets pushed to one side, maybe take over some space from old DR)
3) split DR, if very large to create a decent-sized 3br and dining area, retain maid's
Hi, It probably would be worth giving him a call and getting any information you would like and talk about possible business dealings with him. I do see more GC's sharing contacts as it can ironically be a feast or famine industry.
anyone have any recomendations for rebuilding the original molding that existed on the exterior of the building ?
Hi - They are doing work on the exterior of 1 Sutton Place South. You may want to find out who their vendor is and contact them with your question.