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Wondering if anyone (current residents or otherwise) had thoughts on the Lincoln center/Columbus circle area. Say between CPW and Amsterdam up to 68th or so. Looking at mostly the mid-priced co-ops in the area - Harmony, Dorchester, Lincoln Terrace, etc
A few question - it seems like there's been some school rezoning recently so the southern part of that is in 191. From what I've read, 191 is not desirable at all. Is the rezoning going to creep up, or is it just going to get more jumbled with 452 and the new eventual school at Riverside Center? Is there any reason to think that the current zoning for an apartment will be the same in 5 years? How come 66th street doesn't exist on NYC DoE maps?
How is the neighborhood as a place to live for a family? On the one hand there's lots of services (Whole foods, lincoln center, restaurants), on the other hand seems a little sterile/corporate/etc to the outsider.
Do the high schools by 65th cause any issue (most relevant for Lincoln terrace I guess)?
Thanks a lot
I can't answer about the school districts, but I suspect that nyc10023 will pop in at some point and give you all the details about that issue. I would check old discussions about school districts on the UWS because she knows alot about this issue. This is at least 10 years ago, but I think there was a shooting incident at the high school near West End Avenue and West 66th Street.
What's sterile to one person might be comfortable to another. Especially with children, living in a less sterile neighborhood might have some drawbacks. It's certainly a busy area and convenient to transportation. There are many prettier areas in the city than the Lincoln Center area with all its traffic and congestion. But walking up deserted side streets to access these pockets in the city isn't always the best for children/pre-teens on their own. For example, on the UES, there is a little area on York near Asphalt Green with several buildings which is kind of a family area. It's kind of its own neighborhood, but I don't know how great it is for a pre-teen to walk down those long side streets in the low 90's on their own. That's just my opinion, others may feel that it's perfectly fine.
I grew up in the neighborhood and lived in the area most of my life so definitely have insight/opinions but can I ask, what neighborhood would you be moving from and how old are your kids? Your questions are definitely reasonable and what I would wonder if I were not from the neighborhood. It seems like most of the bldgs you are looking at are on the cusp of Amsterdam, which is quite different than say, the other side of Broadway toward CPW (the side I grew up on) but I went to high school on 60th bt Columbus and Amsterdamn and then College across the street at Fordham so I literally, spent most of my life in that Lincoln Center vicinity. Like lobster said,everything is relative, but if I knew what you were comparing to etc I could better answer :)
We currently don't live in NYC (but have in the past). Weighing this area versus the more classic UWS (70s/80s broadway/west end/riverside area) area which is certainly a little quieter and more residential-feeling. 70s by the park is out of our price range for the size we want and don't like the 90s+. No kids quite yet but want to be comfortable with living where we end up for 5+ years. Also realize that given this timetable there is a decent chance zonings might change substantially, I guess that's one of the questions.
no kids yet and trying to plan for the next 5+ years with kids in mind. hmm, i might try to stay flexible (rent!). adding kids to the equation changes your life in ways that you really can't anticipate ahead of time (and it's different for everyone). circumstances change, perspectives change, priorities change. i probably wouldn't purchase in an iffy school zone unless i knew for certain that my children were going to private school.
uwsmom has the advice that you need....rent.
Lincoln center is a wonderful place to live but, not the spot I'd want to push a baby around daily.
School district is not like in the burbs. You might live near one elementary school but not win the lottery to have your child attend so Jr. ends up at another school in the district that you find less appealing and far from home. That's public education here in the big city. Prehaps you tire of the poor public edu. and decide to sent Jr. to a private. The location of that school might have influence over where you live.
In short...rent, procreate, shop for a property, in that order. Unless you choose to skip the procreation portion of the process then, buy buy buy before you're priced out forever.
If school zoning is a major caveat for you, idck.... definitely tricky! Especially looking 5 years out, there's no telling.
For the bldgs you listed you would be zoned for 199 which has overflow and lots of back and forth about kids being sent to 191/452 and others. I don't think anyone will be able to definitely predict what the situation would be in the future. So with that said, uwsmom might be right that buying in that area with so much uncertainty could be regrettable in the future. Maybe find a rental in the same neighborhood to see if you even like it? Which I'm sure you've already considered lol.
I have lived in the Lincoln Center area for most of our 15 years in NYC, half of that time without kids. Even in that short time, it has changed dramatically. Congestion has definitely increased with the addition of all the high rises west of Ams./Col. Access to groceries, retail has improved to the detriment of a more residential feel. School aside, I would prefer to live around the Columbus or Bway corridors north of 72nd with a family.
The area abounds with different housing options, and the feel of each block varies dramatically. 67th between CPW and Columbus is quite different from 67th and Amsterdam. I think a lot of different things are probably running through your head - kids, how many, can they share, school, etc.?
What are your reasons for buying? And budget constraints?
Thanks for the feedback. I'd rather leave the buy vs rent thread for another day and keep this related to the area. In short, I think buying is a decent trade right now. Prices seem fair compared to rentals (200x for what we are looking at), rates are low, etc. But that's for a different thread.
Now that the DOE has rezoned desirable schools albeit with some pushback, yes, rezoning is always on the table.
The whole PS 452/riverside center is indeed unresolved. Ps452 is located in prime real estate- there is a huge need for middle school spots for the next 4 years. Extell is trying to wiggle out of building the new school. And the baby boom is ending.
66th street does exist on DOE maps, current zone for 199 falls on both sides of the street - includes all of Lincoln towers, amsterdam annex (which straddles 64th-65th). Politically, it would be very difficult to cut any of the Lincoln Towers building out of zone because so many buy in the Towers for the school.
Safety wise, can't see a problem - no market-rate bldg I can think of except maybe the Alfred would force you to walk by the Amsterdam houses, or MLK. Also plans are afoot for other schools to be relocated to MLK, in particular the Special Music School (highly sought after k-8?)
What are you looking at? 2brs? 3brs? I think you can't exclude buy v. rent entirely because if you are planning a family and buying a 2br, you have to ask yourself if you are able to take a loss on transaction costs if you find that it doesn't suit you.
At a price point of 1000/foot, there are other places north of 68th that you can consider. You are still as close to useful retail, neighborhood eats, stuff for kids ( btw, the entire UWS is chock-ful of stuff for kids)
nyc10023 (or others): Have you heard anything yet about Ps452 for K-5? Is this the school's 2nd full year currently? Wondering what people have thought, whether parents have been happy in the early going etc. Thanks in advance for any comments....
Everyone I know has been very happy. The principal was assistant principal at 199 and I know he is very competent. What I have found is that the more involved the families are at school, the happier they tend to be. Since everyone is very involved, not sure how objective they are. Uncertain how the co-location is working out with Anderson.
Bear in mind that this article is from 10 years ago:
New York Times, January 17,2002 (Abby Goodnough with Robert F. Worth
"Latest Shootings Add to King High School's Reputation for Turbulence
I was literally going to write basically the same things that nyc10023 wrote and would definitely agree. I grew up getting dropped off on the bus from school everyday right in front of MLK, had tons of freinds who went to laguardia... never had any problems whatsoever. As nyc10023 most of the bldgs you mentioned would not really call for you to be spending much time on Amssterdam or west of. You would be just on the cusp towards Broadway which is fine. That couple of blocks is definitely sort of an "in-between" neighborhood to me, "in between Lincoln Square and Upper West" but if you are looking and finding that that area allows you to get more sq/foot for your $$$$ I couldn't think of major reasons against.
You would have Food Emporium at your fingertips which is super convenient, a movie theater, tons of cute restaurants and shops on Columbus..... But the future forecast of the school zone issue I think is way up in the air and will be for a while so hard for anyone to advise with that as criteria.
pass by the area often, and it doesn't feel that family oriented. one area that i'm not generally a fan of but does seem to have more families and children is the lincoln towers development. it's a little further west, but that does buy you a development with some kid friendly amenities on site.
if it's not over budget, take a look at west end avenue, riverside drive and riverside blvd for access to the park.
"lincoln towers development"
Very remote. Long walk to and from everything. Architecturally vapid and depressing. Like BPC on the UWS. The only advantage is it's not IN BPC.
still nicer than Stuyvesant Town and safer. When you're on a budget you have to compromise somewhere..
>still nicer than Stuyvesant Town and safer. When you're on a budget you have to compromise somewhere..
Oh give it up. She's long gone and by most people's accounts here, in retrospect her entire set of "contributions" has been considered irrelevant and off-base. The only people still theoreticlaly interested in her are you and penthouselady. Ironic.
I would add that south of 66th street tends to be touristy and lacks a bit of residential soul. Most of the restaurants in the area cater to the show crowd and lack character. It is perfectly safe but feels a bit like a mall to me. I would look further north, you should be able to find comparably priced properties with more of a residential feel. I personally love north of 68th, south of 86th, and east of Amsterdam.
"I personally love north of 68th, south of 86th, and east of Amsterdam."
Well golly who doesn't?
I personally love north of 65th, south of 86th, and west of Madison.
I will add that I strongly dislike the overcrowded Whole Foods at Columbus Circle and although I live close to it and am a regular Whole Foods shopper, I much prefer traveling to WF's at Columbus Square (97th/Col). It's a much more pleasant shopping experience imo.
about 8 hours ago
ignore this person
>"I personally love north of 68th, south of 86th, and east of Amsterdam."
Well golly who doesn't?
I personally love north of 65th, south of 86th, and west of Madison.
All of a sudden, NYCMatt likes the Upper East Side despite his many prior postings to the contrary about the people who live there and the neighborhood.
Going back to the original post - ebabrah asked "How is the neighborhood to live as a family?" That depends so much on what you do as a family, and also the ages of the kids. And implicit in that question is how it is to live in compared to other parts of Manhattan, and NYC.
1) Are your kids going to be signed up for kiddie classes, before preschool? Tons of stuff between 60th & 95th - you're never too far from a NY Kids Club, Music Together, various pools, the Y, JCC, Kidville, museums, playgrounds, CP. Further south, you're closer to Hecksher in CP and the Y. Further north, you'll gravitate more towards AMNH and Riverside Park.
2) Preschools - options to the west, north and south.
3) Family restaurant dining - plenty of diners and casual places - maybe a few more to the north but really, kids don't miss the variety.
4) Wherever you go on the UWS, there are plenty of families.
"I will add that I strongly dislike the overcrowded Whole Foods at Columbus Circle and although I live close to it and am a regular Whole Foods shopper, I much prefer traveling to WF's at Columbus Square (97th/Col). It's a much more pleasant shopping experience imo."
I second the sentiment!!!
I prefer the Seventh Avenue/24th Street store.
Re: I prefer the Seventh Avenue/24th Street store.
So Matt lives in Washington Heights but buys his groceries in Chelsea.
"So Matt lives in Washington Heights but buys his groceries in Chelsea."
Not all of them. Most of them from Fresh Direct.
ebabrah - the only other personal point i can think of that may be worth mentioning is that although we live very close to lincoln center, 99% of our UWS activities occur north of 66th St (my kids are 2 and 3; i won't bore you with the specifics). Certainly 59th - 68th is a fine place to live, but when you're comparing it to prime UWS i think it's definitely lacking in family-friendliness. i'm sure there are many buildings in the area with family friendly amenities and know quite a few families who live in this area w/o complaints. it's certainly "close enough" to take advantage of prime UWS.
Thanks for all the comments everyone. Kind of related question - what is getting built under all that scaffolding in the east part of Lincoln Towers? (west side ofAmsterdam between 67th and 69th or so)
How about Central Park South or is that just for foreigners?
personally, i love this area for family. central park, movie theatres, real theatres, gyms, good restaurants and family restaurants, whole foods, the Y, many schools in the area and very convenient to all areas of the city - both the rest of the upper west side as well as midtown and downtown. if you are within 2 blocks of central park you really can't go wrong with kids.