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I am a big believer in posted arrears lists, and denial of access to amentities for those in arrears, in coops and condos.
I am amazed that some feel it's inappropriate to "shame thy neihgbor", when the shaming is because, in the zero sum game of coop/condo finance, that neighbor is stealing from his/her neighbors.
Nice article, I like it.
I laughed where the shamed famous couple's lawyer said "Personally, I thought it was outrageous. Can you imagine if anyone who you owed money to could hang up signs in front of your house?"
Why is this so outrageous? It's the equivalent of a lien on a property, which is readily available public information. I'd imagine you, Mr. Outraged Lawyer, have slapped out a lien or two in your day.
Co-ops are a bit different in that there is clear recourse to recoup funds in arrears. But in a condo, I say why not? Sing that shame, loud and clear!
How could we have missed this as a community? One of the non-paying condos in question was the same one being sold on Million Dollar Listing New York, the huge penthouse combo at 95 Greene:
Ottawa should note the part about permission to use the elevator next time her thinks he can but a condo and move in without the board's and managing agent's permission. Also good note to people who want to skip out without last month's rent but still use the common areas for their move.
Roberta Axelrod said in the article:
"Certainly, some residents want to know who is in arrears, she admitted, but in her opinion, it’s none of their business."
OK, then if the residents have to kick in and cover the deadbeats with higher common charges every month, then whose business is it then?
Thanks, Yikes. Very interesting article, especially the explanation about coop vs. condo re: arrears: that's really something to consider. We'll probably see more of this as the economy goes south and those who bought at high bubble prices (or refinanced based on bubble valuations) find that they cannot recover their purchase price (or satisfy inflated mtgs) when they try to sell.
Agree, Bill. Interesting that some owners cough up arrears when their amenities are taken away. Seems like they had the $, but tried to game the bld. Seems to me that if an owner can't pay, then tell the Bd what's going on & work out a payout until they either catch up or sell. But, ain't rite to completely stop paying & thereby screw fellow owners.
It's basic human right to deadbeat. Our president just pushed for the 7th bailout plan for the deadbeats/flippers few months ago
In a small condo with no amenities, there really are no great options for deadbeats.
We see this everyday in our city. Higher taxes and more deadbeats with welfare.
But I thought the boards did such a good job betting people and had such great financials? How can this happen? Not in prime luxury Manhattan coops. Say it ain't so.,
They do. That's why the story's about condos.
so this does not happen in Co-ops?
sounds like the guy had the $, just did not feel like paying
in a coop i owned in there was a wealthy lawyer who deadbeated, cost him nothing to fight the board and his neighbors--he racked up a debt of 50K--all sortsa crap about unihabitability and harrassment nad invented leaks---all the while not allowing access to repair shit that was found ultimately to be fine--we spent 30k in legal fees over 4+ years and had to settle that he just, finally, started paying his mntnce--scumbag---bldg had 80 odd owners so the cost was spread--would have been cheaper to just let him not pay, but we had to set example that we would fight--i wanted to spit on the guy when on the elevator with him
Your ex-wife, your neighbor ...
Yikes, just for sh*ts & giggles, why not 'out' the wealthy lawyer? If the story is true, it wouldn't be libel. Aw, come on . . .
"so this does not happen in Co-ops?"
Not to this extent, because co-op boards have the real authority to *evict* for non-payment. Condo "boards" do not.
Sounds like Yikes' experience was worse
sold that apt in 3/02--long forgot the dbag's name--and matt, evicting a lawyer can be an expensive, if not impossible task--they have the edge that it costs them little or nothing to fight/stall, etc--and if the party is dishonest and willing to allege all sortsa he said/she said crap, it can go on forever--
many LL's/coop boards are particularly careful about lawyers for this reason--those who want to deadbeat can be a real nightmare
but anyone can deadbeat, and get away with stealing from their neighbors for a long time with little consequence--i say post that they are in arrears--tho, with the craftier deadbeats, they allege uninhabitability and other crap, so if you post them, then they'll sue for libel
Upon sale of the deadbeat's property, what's the likelyhood of the board recouping the arrears on behalf of shareholders?
Also, if every resident is being forced to fork-over additional monies to cover the shortfall in maintenance, do they have any recourse individually against the deadbeat?
did the deadbeat promise you money? if not no recourse.
ON first question, the deadbeat likely didnt pay taxes so very good chance the board does not recoup all its owed.
If it's a co-op, then the co-op has first dibs on the proceeds of sale. Then the lenders, then the owner.
If it's a condo, then the lenders have first dibs, and then the condo, if there's anything left, and then the owner. Maybe the condo can force the buyer to pay the arrears.
I don't know what precedence IRS liens or RE taxes (for condos) take. Maybe they trump everybody.
NWT, as far as I know, tax guys do indeed jump to the front of the line.
At the end of the day the risk of foreclosure, or a deficiency judgment is what's going to get the unit owner to pay or leave. Not letting the person use the gym is more about optics than solving the problem.
no pay should equal no play.
No Gym, no storage, no doorman, no package room, no nothing.
Failure to pay equals punishing your neighbors in a fiscal way. Your neighbors have every right to take action. There are many stories to this Apple...the presence of a worm for any reason signals the beging of rot...
This is a frightening prospect to me. Coming in to NYC as a single family home owner, and being thrust into a coooperative living situation where there is this type of financial risk from your neighbors, independent of the market.
in this economy more reasons for price drops
when prices are doubling every 5 years, it's easy to overlook the special bennies of condo/coop ownership
caonima, you should consider going back to your occupy camp, the weather is warmer ya know....a bit on the musty side these days with the humidity and all but the drumbeating cures all ills.
Nothing to be frighten of Eumen. Yes it's a risk but you have to consider how big of a risk. I don't think it happens that often and remember with a co op, the building gets first dibs on the proceeds for the arrears before the owner or mortgage company.
> "Personally, I thought it was outrageous. Can you imagine if anyone who you owed money to could hang up signs in front of your house?"
what? solution: don't get in DEBT! WTF? are we all Greek now?
The Times is getting into the game today with their own article on the deadbeat issue. Pretty routine - some people don't pay, it's a pain, you can foreclosure but it's a lot of work and you might not get anything, outing deadbeats and cutting them off from building services are other possible strategies...
Shame these narcissistic pieces of shit.
This is just this tip of the iceberg. With Europe about to enter a recession and China slowing down, wait until those foreign owners stop paying too.
You agree with caonima?
> With Europe about to enter a recession and China slowing down, wait until those foreign owners stop paying too.
let's not exaggerate, how many owners live abroad? bet it's a very small amount. the good building don't allow for pied-a-terre anyway.
what's gonna be a problem though is the increase in taxes to fund pensions. carrying costs will obviously go up a lot to cover for these unfunded liabilities. the problem i see is that during the bubble, nobody was doing this math.
yes with public pension funds assumed ROR of 8% and with 10yr tsy yields at 1.65% taxes will most likely go up to pay for the short fall. People will also have to save more... lots of things that will become more difficult to afford. And, yes, with "Europe about to enter a recession and China slowing down" I'd be concerned about purchasing a condo with a lot of foreign ownership.
Oh no its the end of the world.