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What do you consider high, low and average maintenance per sqft for the standard postwar/doorman building in Manhattan???
To the dismay of many, I'd say that 2.00 is the new 1.75. The upward march of assessed values for property tax is the culprit in almost every case.
Agree with 2.0
holy crap, u can rent for 4-4.5 per month anyways. i guess this means if u buy 2 apts in the city, u've bought 1 apt and a rental for life...
nyc1234, I can't help but point out that exactly 0% of that rent is tax deductible. Also, the owner of the unit is just passing the maintenance right through to the renter anyway.
tax deductible piece of the maintenance is only applicable to NON-AMT tax payers from what I understand. For most apts in Manhattan, I would say a majority of owners are AMT tax payers.
many (if not most) co-ops have underlying mortgages, so at the very least you get that pass through deduction
@Streakeasy, can you llc your own house + an investment property and shortchange your own rental as a way of offsetting expenses?
eg almost like making your primary residence expenses pre-tax.
there is no tax deduction in buying property. the principal payments are fully taxed. the interest on the mortgage is where u receive the tax benefit and this is not a true tax benefit in reality (despite what the brainwashing from the media tells you). this is simply a subsidy on ur interest rate payments.
also whether or not the cost is passed to the renter doesn't matter. i'm not concerned in figuring out how much profit my landlord makes but am more interested in my ultimate net worth and comparison of rental vs owned property. if a 1000 sq ft apt rents for $4.5 per sq ft and ownership costs $2 per sq ft there is a problem from an investment basis. the rationale for buying is based upon discount cash flow like all other businesses. if the maintenance fee is almost 50% of the rental fee, that means u still have significant inflation based exposure on the expense side which really eats into the profit.
Nah, I'd still go with;
from what Ive been seeing. (as I felt until this year avg was 1.6 not 1.8)
Mine is in the low range and in the near future may be nearly non existent.
Also, recent changes to the 80/20 rule for coops opens up major declines in maintenance costs for "on the avenue" or on a main cross street coop building.
In some cases, commercial tenants may put some buildings at near zero maintenance when those sweetheart leases run out.
I did some research after I asked the initial question and it seems that $1.76 was the average in 2010 so I guess $2.00 isn't a bad guesstimate for 2012.
truthskr10, yes, e.g. http://streeteasy.com/nyc/building/33-east-70-street-new_york where maintenance is less than $3K for eight rooms.
Back in the early 1980s, when Congress was considering getting rid of the 80/20 rule (they didn't then) the president of the co-op testified that they had to keep their commercial income down to ~$300K to comply with 80/20, while they could've been getting ~$900K.
They're in an ideal retail location, though.
Wait, I misremembered. It's ~$2400 for eleven rooms and ~$1700 for nine.
@deanc, I think nyc1234 took care of your question. As coop maintenance goes up, is there any benefit of restructuring the ownership of the coop? Are there any alternatives to the current tax structure and benefits of owning a coop?
"the rationale for buying is based upon discount cash flow like all other businesses"
:::banging head against wall:::
The rationale for buying is based upon the concept of owning an apartment you love, and enjoying living in it for many, many years.
@Isle of Lucy
You refer to the emotional portion of the purchase (not the rational aspect). Sorry some of us don't have unlimited funds. We have to decide between different investments. Obviously people do not make decisions to buy ferraris on discount cash flow. they simply buy based upon owning the car they love...as did several million u.s. homeowners in the past decade. this "rational" thought process actually led us into a recession.
I don't knock your viewpoint, but u r living in a glass house in the sky.
"Don't get emotional over stock Gordon" does not apply when people buy homes they are going to live in.
Calling it an investment or not.
I spent 15 unemotional years in rentals and it showed. Still, I am not an ideal subject as I can afford an emotional home an outside investents both.
Point remains, you can't square up a home purchase to a stock portfolio on strict apples to apples rationale.
sorry "and outside investments" both.
of course i can. and so can and do many others.
ultimately if you can survive on 3% of your net worth annually (including health care and all other expenses) then buying or renting probably becomes a moot point as long as either route does not force you to draw down...
of course if you have this type of cash (let's say $25-30k per month lifestyle, or $15+ million cash)...then how much does it matter if your coop $ per sq ft is $1, $2, $3, or $4?
> Also, the owner of the unit is just passing the maintenance right through to the renter anyway.
don't take that for granted going forward. unfunded pensions will be paid with higher property taxes. those workers that already pay too much on rent will not be able to absorve these increases. hence it's gonna be a period of lower margins for landlords with some years of negative. it's a myth that they earn $ every year.
not to mention you can see this cost very easily by looking at the comparative rent to buy $/sq ft.
also don't assume that a savvy corporation is paying the same amt per sq ft to maintain their buildings as a bunch of 70+yr old co-op board members. joining a co-op to me is like joining a medical practice as a partner...the individuals may be great at what they do but perhaps are not best at running a business.