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We're thinking of renovating our Classic 6 on the UES (2 bed maid's room and 3 full baths) to convert the maid's room into a real 3rd bedroom. Right now, the maid's room is pretty tight and I don't think it'll fit anything else other than a twin bed, and we have been using the room as storage which I think is a waste. Our architect suggests getting rid of the 3rd bathroom (where entrance is from maid's room and with a standing shower stall) and using that extra space for cabinets etc to make it into a real bedroom. The other option is to open up the kitchen and create a dining area inside the kitchen. That way, the 3rd bathroom is retained but part of the original dining room becomes the 3rd bedroom - the Classic 6 becomes a 5-room apartment. In terms of creating value for resale, which option do you think is better? Or do you think both options will destroy value? Thanks in advance.
Value? It's a 'Home'!!!! Paint it pink. Blow out the kitchen into shower/toilet/12 burner galley kitchen.. Make your obese wife happy by keeping the dinner conversation going while she is on the can.... Make the Reno work for you and your family. The Hell w/ value and follow on sale. You NEVER lose on RE!!!!!!
I should know I have a Harvard degree
Do they have a veterinary school?
You had me up to the point where you said you'd be carving out part of the dining room for this third bedroom. That will destroy value.
Many Classic 6s have highly inefficient kitchens, impossible to improve by reconfiguration of the existing space. If you're lucky (no plumbing or structural support), you can move the wall between the K and the MR in to make the K a well-functioning galley, and still keep the maid's bath and DR, while enlarging the MR. Perhaps while doing that you can incorporate the pantry/scullery area into the new galley kitchen.
I've seen that done to positive effect in an UWS Classic 6.
The same apartment also managed to create a fourth bedroom (70s-style, in the 1970s) by tearing out the wall between the entrance gallery and the DR, then rebuilding it on a dramatic diagonal about halfway between the outerwalls. And when I say diagonal, I mean the dust-catching way. The bedroom was the right size for a very low bed (think futon); the dining room had a more open, spacious feeling than it really was, but without being fully open to anything but the LR on the shorter end, and amply large for big dinner parties. Excellent flow all around.
And this was in a rental! Gotta love rent regulations the way they used to be!!!
When you convert a classic 6 into a 3br, try not to destroy value. Very rarely will you create value. This depends on the layout of your apt and building comps. Is it a dogleg 6 in a building of family apts? Or is it a more entertaining adult oriented 6 (check out H line at 210W90). I like flipping kitchen and maid's to create a kitchen with a defined windowed dining area in the former.
Check out classic conversions at 685 WEA and 110-18 RSD.
It apears thatbyou dont actually need a third bedroom and are doing this only for resale. If you convert a 6 to a 5 I think you almost by definition lose value because of the psychology of buyers. Also, you could lose all the buyers that actually look for proper per war 6s. Consider using the maids room as an office or a guest room with a small convertible couch.
I'd be nervous about creating dry storage in a designated 'wet' area, as you describe in the first scenario. Unless you are on the top floor, you will always be at risk for flooding from the water lines and bathrooms above.
It's bad enough for a an upstairs neighbor's over-flowed toidy or tub to rain into your bathroom--but a flood into your closet is a whole different kind of sucky.
If you're thinking about getting rid of the closet, would it make sense to use the bathroom space (or part of it) to put in a W/D? As the w/d seems to be the holy grail for many people
( Assuming the building allows that, but it would be wet over wet).
Link a comparable floorplan
ph41's suggestion is a good one, and commonly done ... in part because maid's rooms typically have a window over the (originally showerless) tub, making for a crappy shower installation anyway. So that's basically where the w/d goes.
And then you can leave the toilet for the caterer, daymaid, visiting Republican guest, or contractor to use.
>in part because maid's rooms typically have a window over the (originally showerless) tub
Oooh, this doesn't sound good, now does it columbiacounty?
I wasn't using my columbiacounty login. Address me as alanhart.
Thanks to those who provided constructive input.
Not sure what a dogleg 6 is. But basically the maid's room/bath and the kitchen form an L-shape around the dining room. Dining room is decent sized (16 x 13)., and so is kitchen (10 x 9-1/2), but maid's room is only 9 x 6. The maid's bathroom has the W/D units installed already, the new floorplan moved the W/D into the kitchen, and uses that space and the shower stall for closets.
It looks like everyone is in agreement that taking away the dining room destroys value. Good point bramstar on problems converting 'wet' to 'dry" area. I'll talk to the architect on these things again and see if we could just widen the maid's room a little and keep most of the layout the same.
Alanhart, I wasn't addressing you, I was referencing your post to columbiacounty. He wasn't here much this weekend. Maybe he got locked into the outhouse.
is there a way to cut into the dining room to expand the maids room? or is there a bathroom between these 2 rooms? don't lose the formal dining room but you could make it a tad smaller. if you link a floorplan you'll get more ideas from the board. even draw a picture yourself, you'll get great and specific advice.
Something like this -
I have done many conversions in the past not only creating the needed spaces but adding value to the property. Please visit www.victoriabenatar.com to see samples of our work. If you our work interest you please feel free to call us 212 7550525. I'm sure I can resolve you space problem with the right investment and keeping or adding value to your property.
This was done two different ways in our building. In our building (and it sounds like OP has a similar setup), the kitchen shares a wall with the maid's bath and the maid's room shares a wall with the DR. There is a long corridor (Butler's Pantry) running from the Kitchen to the DR and next to the Maid's Room.
One owner simply moved the wall of the maid's bedroom ~5' into the DR, thus making the Maid's Room 14' x 8' and the DR 11' x 10'. This also made the Butler's Pantry 5' longer too. They also moved the wall of the Maid's bath out into the maid's room a little bit (1.5'?) to create a bit more space in the shower. The upside is that the Maid's in now a real full sized room with a small but full bath. The downside is that the kitchen is a bit of a walk from the DR.
The other owner did something a bit more complicated, but also very nice. They switched the kitchen and the Maid's room. Our building (and many pre-wars are like this) considered the maid's area as "wet" so it was possible to move the kitchen into the maid's room and bath, as long as the wet areas of the kitchen did not extend over the DR in the lines below. They made the bath into a 1/2 bath and added laundry. Then had an open plan kitchen/family room/dining area in the former maid's bath, maid's room and dining room. The downside is that the room in the former kitchen is only slightly larger than the original maid's room, now has 1/2 bath and has a service door. A fine study but not really another bedroom. The upside is that many people really like having an open kitchen and family space so close together.
Both of these apartments have sold in the last few years (renovated) and both have done quite well.
Original FP -http://img.streeteasy.com/nyc/image/93/8491993.gif
Extended Maid's Room - no FP available anymore
Switched Maid's & Kitchen - http://img.streeteasy.com/nyc/image/43/16014543.gif
here is the original FP
Lots of good feedback here. As usual, I agree with 10023.
I think there's one situation where dividing the dining room is almost a no-brainer:
1) The dining room is fairly long;
2) The long side of the dining room adjoins the bedroom corridor;
3) The intended hold period is long.
Here's an example, from 118 West 79th:
This is the original layout:
Wow, thanks everyone for all the helpful feedback! Greatly appreciate it!
lucillebluth: no the bathroom is not between the dining room and the maid's room. And yes, I'd love to sketch the layout and provide a link to it, but I'm not so tech savvy and I don't know where to post the picture online so as to get a link for it.
nyc10023: thanks for the floorplans. I think this one I attached below is the closest to our layout, other than the fact that our dining room is rectangular (16 x 13), so if you flip the maid's room + maid's bathroom 90 degrees where bathroom would appear on top, that's pretty much our current layout.
west81st: I think the 3 points you mentioned apply to our situation. I think we would like to hold the property 5-10 years at the minimum. We just feel our current dining room is too big for us - we don't spend time there other than dinner, and we don't organize big parties or gatherings at home. Just wanted to make better use of the space we have. My question to you is: will getting rid of the maid's bathroom to create some closet space for the "enhanced maid's room" makes sense to you? Or you think it's better to keep the bathroom there (or at least have some kind of a powder room, i.e. no shower)?
nyc411: we are actually expecting a 2nd child so I think we will need another bedroom at some point. Both our families are not in NY so I think it'd be nice to be able to host at least 1 or 2 family members when they come visit. But then, resale value will always be priority, we definitely don't want to destroy value.
wc - re: the large dining room. It seems as if many people use the dining room as a den/dining room by adding a sofa/tv/etc. to the room along with the dining tables and chairs. As your room is rectangular, the layout might lend itself to that. At least you might be using the space more fully.
To answer one particular point -- no, don't get rid of the maid's bathroom unless you're completely eliminating the maid's room itself. And if the latter, try to at least preserve the use of the toilet, for the convenience of caterers, staff, etc.
If the maid's room will ever be used for anyone's overnighting, a full bathroom will be immeasurably appreciated. Think houseguest, au pair, nanny, teenager, meddling mother-in-law when you have new baby, etc. A reno in NYC is a much bigger undertaking than in other places, so think not just for your family, but for subsequent owners. [On the other hand, of course, never think only of resale value, but also your own happiness and use.]
Nationally, in more upmarket houses, the bathroom ratio has begun to exceed 1:1. People are really potty-minded these days.
As for another particular point, you don't use the dining room much because of the phase of your life you're in. When your children are a few years older, you might very well want to host Thanksgiving or other nice big dinners with extended family and your family-like friends, and maybe even invite the entire household of one of your children's friends. It's great to have that extra room to add a table.
WC: you speak of resale as a top priority. The best guide to whether resale is impacted is to look at same or similar line comps in your building. You are also implying that you won't be in the apartment long-term. If I am mistaken, then you should really consider impact of NOT having a 3rd family bedroom (as opposed to maid's enlarged or otherwise) on quality of life. For example, it is impossible to predict what kind of sleeper #2 will be. We had a baby who simply could NOT fall asleep easily sharing a room. Not having a 3rd BR would have been misery. Having a 3rd BR used by young children far away through K is not ideal in the middle of the night if you have wandering kids. I know families who would otherwise have to move who are happily ensconced in C6 with converted DR and large EIK. Otherwise a move out of the city or nabe would be in the works.
And yes, I know that we can't have evolved that much since our prehistoric ancestors so my kids are spoiled with bad sleep habits.
in resale, a 3br will get you more than a 2br of the same size. Real 3brs (classic 7s) are way too expensive for many families, so there is a real need for a small 3brs which this would be. So i say do it but never overspend.
I'd just keep the little maid's room and bath as-is, and put a kid in it if need be.
In West81st's immortal words, if the kid can't show a W2 its complaints about bedroom size can be ignored.
IMHO keeping the original layout is better, but you should attempt to upgrade it by making the maid's room a usable space, either as a nursery, office, guest room, or small bedroom. There are some amazing possiblities now for small spaces. With some work and a good contractor you may be able to make this space more usable.
It's extremely difficult to guess how buyers will perceive your renovations. I have seen buildings where owners thought they were "unlocking value" by taking down walls, combining rooms, moving hallways, etc. and they really just created a mess that future owners have to undo. I'm a firm believer in maximizing your current state, rather than moving walls unless there are compelling circumstances that any future buyer will want.
In the apartment below, the owners cut-up the dining room to create a third bedroom. It's a small bedroom (and I wonder if they really used the maid's room appropriately), but this can definitely add value to the apartment, especially if it's easy to undo.
It isn't size, it's proximity to YOUR bedroom so you have a fighting chance of going back to sleep afterwards.
Why do anything at all, other than improving the state of current fixtures in apt, if value is the most important consideration?
If you limit your work to enlarging maid's, mucking about with some plumbing, etc. in a reasonably strict co-op that requires architectural drawings, you're out a minimum of 50k. Are you going to make that back - I think that would be very hard to determine whether buyer down the road is paying more for those small improvements.
Depends on SF most of the time