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Certainly when some sees a building who's average sales price is $1600/sqft renting units out at an average of $47/sqft, there is a major correction coming.
3 of the 1br rental units are available with 800ft and 900ft units at $3200. These are units that are asking approx. $1400ft for sales, so the price/rent ratio is almost near 40!!
Expect significant reductions in the value of these properties, and I am talking in comparison to the already reducing real estate values across the area. The saturation of units along Riverside Blvd will create a domino effect of falling prices impacting everything around it (The Avery/Element/10WEA/etc) in a way that many cannot fathom at this stage. Buyers are nowhere to be found and when the banks are tasked to clear the mess that Extell is uninitentionally left with, it will be a sloppy mess.
This is one of those areas that required another 3-5 years of boom development to create a sustainable neighborhood, however, as the economy deteriorates I expect this to be one of the hardest and longest hit in Manhattan.
Which makes Extell's recent announcement about Riverside Center all the more bizarre: http://www.nycondoblog.com/?p=1000 . . . even a decade out.
"Which makes Extell's recent announcement about Riverside Center all the more bizarre"
The plan's been in the works back when Extell took over the Riverside Blvd project from Trump while he was getting his a$$ beat by the community too much to carry on. Ofcourse Extell is going to do everything they can to push the 'long term' agenda, but the economics of the Riverside Center has completely changed and anything else in the press from here on out is nothing but long term projections with no relevance to the current reality. $600mm is not building Riverside Center and Extell is done getting construction loans for a long long time after/if they finish 40 Riverside.
The thought of getting a Costco there is great for everyone in the city.......with the exception of the poor souls living within a 3 blocks radius of it. These buildings are in deep deep trouble.
Here I go again...so what do you say to those in contract at the Rushmore and are expected to close soon...Extell is offering NO CONCESSIONS.
get over yourself already...yep, you made a bad deal...so has everyone else. including extell, related, AIG, Merrill Lynch, you name it.
stop your whining...it's ridiculous.
I don't understand the market in NY (sorry, haven't lived there for a few years, but moving back soon). What were people thinking paying these mega prices psf, when there is so much, in my opinion, substitute product at substantially less (although most of that was overpriced also). And aren't these super high ppsf places going to feel the crash by far the worst percentage wise?
Well, I think RE_economist has an interesting point...except nothing in NY real estate is ever linear.The purchasers of the units that have closed (perhaps a half-dozen) may be cash buyers looking to cover the monthly nut, not make a fortune. If they have closed, they had the cash/financing to do so and have a time horizon that hopes for an improved market. The relatively low rental/price ratio has more to do with depressed rents all over Manhattan (especially for 1 bedrooms) than anything inherently wrong with the building per se. Also, does anyone know what the exposures are? Looking at the inner courtyard or river view? According to streeteasy, there are more than 240 contracts signed. So the suggestion is, Extell Development will go bust because a lot of people will not close on their units, or because they will not be able to sell the units they have available at anywhere near the asking price. (but if Extell gives quiet 'back-door' discounts -- covering closing costs, mansion tax, etc. -- it may take some of the sting out for buyers who feel resentful that they bought at the height of the market. True, a number of purchasers can not close for legitimate economic reasons while others may be have buyer's bitter remorse and just want out. According to Streeteasy, two or three more units have gone into contract in the last few weeks. By late spring we'll have a much clearer idea of how many people are closing. At that point, it will be obvious to all whether the building will succeed.
I agree with everything that RE_Economist has said. It's a scary thought what will happen to the building and the hood. Of the units that closed as seen on streeteasy, they were not near $1400 psf. Interesting, but were there concessions?
How do you find out about that...I suppose you just have to wait until the ACRIS shows the closing. Also Skippy2222, were all the condos 1400 psf? Even the more undesirable ones?
"The relatively low rental/price ratio has more to do with depressed rents all over Manhattan (especially for 1 bedrooms) than anything inherently wrong with the building per se"
Do you not see a correlation between rents and purchase prices? Certainly, if I was dead set on a 1br apartment in the Rushmore, I personally would spend 3 yrs renting for /-$100k and eventually save over $300k on the purchase price generously estimating $1000/ft when the dust settles.
Buying now is about as counterintuitive as can be. If someone wants to be a contrarian and invest over $1mm for 740sqft without a water view in a neighborhood that has warehouses & low income housing between themselves and civilization, I wish them nothing but luck. The reason why credit is frozen is not really because there is no liquidity, but instead because the banks now know better than everyone exactly how overinflated these assets are priced and refuse to lend unless it's a virtual guaranteed return.
all good points Re_economist.
So re-economist, how about this idea? We will lose the deposit, but then rent in the Rushmore. It will not be the unit that we purchased, but we will have a real feel for the bldg. And I heard through the grapevine, the rentals are at a very good price right now. Your thoughts?
mlwest, look at the listings. about 70 of the apartments are listed as "off-market" presumably people who have walked away. Which means that Extell stills has something over 100 apartments to sell in a building that has already started closings.
Sorry guys, I've been posting the same thing for over a year now, and all I got in the beginning was ridicule.
I generally agree with your point. The area itself is nice but immediate surrounding is disgusting. Trainstations are far walk and one must be ready to be enclosed within the community...kinda like the waterside plaza. I am looking to make a move to Rushmore in near future when the 2br/2bath is in the low mil.
"Sorry guys, I've been posting the same thing for over a year now, and all I got in the beginning was ridicule."
An apology isn't really necessary Steve, unless that is for uselessly reiterating to people who agree with you that you were right.
The Rushmore is in serious trouble. Here's why:
First, clearly they've angered many of the existing buyers. They have drastically cut prices and raised incentives on unsold units because they couldn't sell them( btw, without amending the offering plan. grounds for getting your money back? The Offering Plan says any change in the schedule of prices has to be filed). This lowers the value of the building because all of the units around you will have a lower cost basis and can sell (eventually, if they have to) at a lower price than a previous buyer can.
Closings started in February. They were supposed to close ~20/month. The sales office has said they've closed 8-9, so only about a third, with only 4 showing up on ACRIS so far. Most of the closing were sold 12-20% below asking to investors and friends and family (plus likely closing concessions). And 5 are already for rent, which will compete with the unsold units, further lowering the prices. This is a negative selection bias, the only ones that will close are the ones that will reduce the value of the building.
The sales office has said that the building is 65% sold(the amendment which declared the plan effective said only 55%. Grounds for a lawsuit? I suspect the sales office has been misrepresenting % sold to many buyers for some time) . Having only contracted 4 so far this year, the % sold is bound to go down. Many buyers will either not be able or not want to close. Anyone who is afraid of losing their job should seriously consider whether they close.
Next, look at comparables. Prices across the city have gone down, say 15%. Best comparisons are 120, 200, 220, and 240 Riverside. Some units in 120 are down as much as 25%. Prices are only going lower.
Another analysis is rent versus buy. Rental prices have recently dropped significantly, with prices expected to drop further. You can rent a 2 bedroom for what a 1 bedroom cost 2 years ago. Rents in 140, 160, and 180 Riverside were just lowered 15%. You can think of buying as a combination of renting (compare this to the after tax monthly cost of your mortgage and maintenance, best compared to an interest only loan) and your down payment as an investment. First, with rents having dropped you can rent much more cheaply now. Then, what kind of return do you think you will get on your down payment? You should expect a negative return. So if you rent for the same price as an after tax mortgage and invest your down payment in bonds yielding 5%, you will be much better off. Also, unless you get a 30yr fixed, buyers who get a mortgage that floats after 5 or 7 years are at risk of higher rates. The Fed has initiated unprecedented monetary easing over the past 18 months, which many expect could result in massive inflation a few years down the line. The risks of owning now are so much higher than renting.
Not to mention, since the building isn't fully sold, there is a risk of having an assessment on common charges, should Extell decide to stop paying (or be unable to pay) the common charges for unsold units. You don't have this risk renting. And a much lower risk in fully sold buildings.
Then look at price to rent ratio: Historical ratio of purchase price/ annual rent in NYC is 12. The recent ratio is 17, reflecting higher paying jobs, desire to own, limited supply, desire to live in NYC, and overall economic growth. Rents have decreased, and, that ratio will decrease as the upside in owning goes away. That is the double whammy you get in de-leveraging(which is the opposite of leveraging during a growth environment, and why real estate investment made so much money the past few years. You could often borrower close to 100%, and make a killing).
Supply outlook: Buildings started a few years ago are still coming on the market. New supply will continue to come onto the market well into 2010. In the immediate area, you have the Aldyn, the building on 72nd and Broadway, 66th and Amsterdam, The Harrison, and many others around the city. So much of the supply is new condo buildings that the large supply is understated. Just look at the Rushmore. They have ~110 units to sell, but only 25 or so listed. They are the only ones doing this.
Demand outlook: People are leaving the city. Unemployment in NYC just jumped the most ever to 8.1%. Jobs will continue to be lost in Finance, Media (advertising $s have dropped through the floor), and Fashion. Many families are moving to the suburbs to lower their costs, and some who have lost their jobs are waiting to the end of the school year to move. There will be no new jobs for undergrads and grad students, so there won't be new people moving to the city after graduation. Bonuses in finance will continue to drop due to the pressure from the US government, on both TARP banks and non-TARP banks (no reason to pay more than average). The buying power of the collective financial services industry is likely to be 1/4 to 1/5 at best that it was. Oil is at $50 now too, not $150, so no more Russian or Saudi money.
Not to mention, Fannie and Freddie just raised their financing conditions. Condos have to be 70% sold to lend to buyers. Many other banks use their guidelines, even for non-conforming loans. Since the Rushmore is 65% sold at best, many banks will not lend to buyers here.
President Obama: Nearly everyone who buys in this building makes more than 250k, so taxes will go up. He is also wants to reduce the mortgage deduction. And generally is going after many of the firms that pay high salaries in NY.
My analysis doesnt even consider the specifics of the area. Some hate it, some love it. It is a fringe area though. Some like that, and appreciate being by the park. But most likely, it is at greater risk than established areas of price declines.
Conclusion: Literally every possible analysis shows it is a bad time to buy, even if you have already put serious money down. The sales office will say everything they can against this, and try to convince you everything is great and they still have buyers lining up, and everyone will close. It's their job to say everything they can to get you to close at full price. Including saying they are not offering concessions to previous buyers. Ultimately, they will have to. There are no new buyers. I think they will play it down to the wire, letting some walk, but I think they will come back and offer incentives for those that do.
Streeteasy addict, I sent this to my lawyer. Hopefully, he can use some of these arguements in getting some major concessions on the price, or even better getting some of our deposit returned. Thank you
Under Supply Outlook, I meant to say they "aren't" the only ones doing this.
BDS, I didn't see any listed for $1000 psf. Interesting that these first few sold close to that number. They ranged from $1100 to $1600 the last time I checked. BTW, I think the building is beautiful and until I read about the exit from the West Side Highway at 59th or 60th, I really liked the buildings on the street. It will be like living on York Ave in the 60's not Sutton Place. Not withstanding my appreciation of the area, I cannot see paying what they are asking.
RE-economist, how would you approach the Rushmore if you were expected to close in short order...how would you approach concessions. Maybe rent to buy. Is there a possibility that they would hold the downpayment in escrow, if you used this approach?
give it up already...stop beating this stupid horse to death. you are not going to get your deposit back. they are not going to lower your price. you made an unfortunate deal. stop trying to weasel out of it. its sickening and depressing to watch you whine and whimper.
columbiacounty - I think you've made intelligent comments in the past so it is unfortunate to see you bullying a buyer on this board who has a lot of money at stake. I suspect if you had several hundred thousand dollars down in an investment that has becomed more risky, you'd be very concerned as well. If you have something useful to contribute, please do. Otherwise, there is not need to behave like a 2 year old on this board - people have enough problems and they don't need your derision. Shame on you.
columbiacounty - your comments are unproductive and contribute nothing to the discussion. BDS asks a legitimate question, and given the economic environment, has reasons to feel anxious. His/her concerns are shared by many. If you find this discussion annoying, don't read it, much less participating with your irrelevant rants.
The Rushmore has some great apt layouts on the tower floors (no I'm not a buyer/seller/broker). Can't move there for school zoning reasons, but I dig the whole floor thing (apts CD, PH).
I have to agree with Streeteasyfan and RE-economist regarding the economics of the building. My only point really is, by late spring, another 4-6 weeks, and certainly when they get temp C/O of the next 12 or so floors of the building by mid-summer, we'll have a much stronger indication of just how many people are not closing, and of those who are, at what price. Incidentally, only higher prices need to be amended to the AG; lowering prices are a matter of negotiation. Back-end deals, the kind that may not show as a closing price, include things like picking up closing costs, picking up some months/years of CAM, etc. Also, Streeteasy, for what it's worth, has 252 apartments listed as sold (not closed, just under contract). Now, all that said, I hesitate to endorse some of what sounds like scorched earth dooms-day talk. It sounds like some on this board want out of their contracts no matter what, while others are trying to negotiate a price adjustment. If the situation is as dire as some suggest, then those who are trying to merely get a better price may be undermining their own longer terms interests. So it's a tightrope. Of course, if you just want out, then I guess you can hope the building falls down.
Does anyone know to what floor Extell has sent out notices to close? I think they should be on the 4th floor by now right? There were at least 40 units under contract through the 6th floor and if only 7 has closed (per another poster) - then what is happening to the rest of the units?
I mean be on the 6th floor through closing..
thanks to all of you who defended me from derision.
many buyers on this area were just flippers. those that buy their 1st residency should run away from areas full of flippers and speculators especially during a long recession. those guys could just walk away when their investment doesn't pay off and let you paying their maintenance bills.
that is true - there are a lot of investment buyers on the boulevard. i think 120 RSB has close to 50 apts on sale. That said, that building has an incompetant board that made decisions which introduced instability in the buidling and drove away a lot of owners and investors, so it may not be the best example.
"Streeteasy addict, I sent this to my lawyer. Hopefully, he can use some of these arguements in getting some major concessions on the price, or even better getting some of our deposit returned. Thank you"
OK--so poster has sent advice from this board to their lawyer for input.
"RE-economist, how would you approach the Rushmore if you were expected to close in short order...how would you approach concessions. Maybe rent to buy. Is there a possibility that they would hold the downpayment in escrow, if you used this approach?"
question has been asked and answered. over and over. how many more times do we need to go through the same question?
cc - not everyone trolls SE all the time. we have repeat issues constantly. this one seems to annoy you. maybe avoidance of similar threads is the answer?
the question may be the same but situation will always be different. the market is lower yet. relevant litigation is moving along. the developer is different and so is the lender and the project is a different % in contract. why should we think that somebody's answer to this question months ago should still apply today in this specific situation? new people ask, new people answer, maybe even some of the old folks have new experiences or insights to share. of course i have a personal interest, being a buyer in contract, but i would certainly like to see this question discussed over and over again going forward. i have learned something different from each SE thread i've read on it so far.
but they asked the same question yesterday twice.
bds - If you've entered into a binding contract to purchase a unit at a specific price and the market moves against you, why should you expect to receive a concession or be surprised that the developer isn't offering you a concession? Presumably, you're an informed adult who made a poor investment decision by your own volition. Do you really expect a do-over? What if the market continued to run up like gangbusters? Do you thing the developer would have a case to argue for concessions from you? Or are you just special?
iMom, these contracts give the buyer the *option* not the *obligation* to close. In fact, the contracts are often called "option agreements." The only thing legally binding for the buyer is the forfeit of deposit (option premium) if they choose not to close (exercise the option).
Simple example, since people don't seem to get it. I go into contract on a $1M apartment. I put down $100k and have the right to close for the balance, $900k. Now the market value of the apartment is $700k. I simply walk away, leaving my $100k with the developer, rather than paying $900k for something now worth $700k. I have no other legal obligation.
What buyers like bds and I are wondering, often to the irritation of some folks on this thread, is why doesn't the developer want to discuss a new price with me? I AM GOING TO WALK AWAY. The developer is going to have another unit, worth $700k, newly back on the market. Let's say I'm willing to pay $700k (either through a price reduction or other concessions that effectively get me that price), and close on my scheduled closing date. The developer is not going to do any better than that. The developer would be getting current market value, on a very short timeframe (my scheduled closing date) and can report the closing price as $800k (my deposit plus my new exercise price of $700k) which is preferable to him than reporting a sale at $700k. I don't think I am "special" for hoping a rational negotiation like this could take place. In fact, I would expect the developer to respect any bid in this market, especially one at market and ready to close.
Some of the more insightful answers on past threads have to do with the loan agreement, reserve prices and so on - some of the non-public aspects of the agreement between the developer and their lender. A developer probably has no incentive (or sometimes no right) to go below a certain price, which if applied to the rest of the unsold units, would imply their equity is wiped out. I would love to hear from any folks who understand this stuff better.
Bds, in my view your only option is to walk away and wait for the developer to come back to you. I have heard of this happening in many cases now. You also may have some legal technicalities to pursue, but that would require your attorney taking a very hard look at your offering plan, contract and keeping up to date on the new stuff in the courts.
the deuce...thank you. I am just trying to understand if there are options, knowing full well that I probably will have to walk away and perhaps lose my deposit. Until that moment, I am exploring any info that I can get to perhaps dampen the blow. I really appreciate the constructive info.
Here's an interesting and insightful post as to a Miami condo auction in fall of 2007.
There have been a ton of auctions happening around the country the last 2+ years -- I've seen new construction auctions in Minneapolis, Seattle, LA and Miami, so I think they will eventually come here as well.
TheDeuce - you are certainly correct in your post about the developer being unable to renegotiate due to their lending agreements. The developers are praying that folks like bds walk, b/c then they can make the argument to the bank that there is no way they will be able to honor their loans, which will then allow the mechanism for auction/rental conversion to occur.
I would also suspect there is an accounting reason not to sell at a deeply discounted price -- anyone know how banks/lenders treat unsold condo inventory? Also, you might be able to book the loss over a multi-year period if you hold on to the depreciated asset as opposed to taking the loss today if things sold at a deep discount.
That's a suspicion of mine, but I don't have first hand knowledge of this. I'd be happy to learn more of this from someone on the accounting side.
streeteasyfan Why do you write that 120 RSB has an incompetant board and what makes the building unstable?
The board at 120 RSB has a contentious relationship with their owners, renters and investors. They interpreted the offering memo in a way that harmed the investors' investment in the building (i.e. restricting who investors can rent to and what amenaties the renters can enjoy in the building simply b/c their status is renting and not owning) and as a result, many investors in the building (and that building had a ton of investors - Trump's last building on the blvd and so he lifted the restriction on how many investors can buy)have been forced to either sell their units (b/c they can't get renters) or rent below theiry carrying cost (b/c so many units are for rent in competition with each other.) The board also treats people who work really hard in the buidling very, very poorly, which is really sad. The board can't get voted out b/c so many units are in the hands of investors and they can't get quorum. There is only one guy on the board with any kind of management experience and the other ones simply acted out of their personal interest and not of the entire buidling and as a result has (and is) ruining the investment of everyone in that building - just go look at the sales and rental in that buidling - is is through the roof. The building itself has some really great amenaties (pool, roof deck, etc) and you've just got to wonder - why are apts no selling there?
bds - I can appreciate your desire to recoup some of your $$ and ask for concessions, but as many others have posted on many Streeteasy and other threads, would you be willing to increase your offer if the market had gone up?? I think this is a fair question. The developers/ land owners have expenses and heartaches as well. They would not presume to send you a notice or lawsuit asking that because the market increased by an unexpected amount, you should pay more for your apartment than what was initially agreed upon, and bound by a legal contract.
The United States was founded on laws, principles, and stability - the written contract being one of, if not the most important instrument in ensuring that stability. This is why we are able to sell so much debt to the world and finance our habits.
Without the sanctity of the written contract, what do we have?? Really?
I genuinely feel for your misfortune, but by the same token, you signed a contract that you expected the developer to uphold. Now you should do the same. Trying to fabricate loopholes that you know to be disingenuous is akin to the same behavior that got us into this mess to begin with.
johngalt1945 you don't get it, they're not talking about breaking the contract. The contract says: I buy the right to buy this condo at X dollars by giving you Y dollars. It doesn't say I will buy this condo. If the market goes up, they can choose to execute that option. If not, they can choose not to exercise that option. If they choose not to, they forfeit Y dollars. Whether or not it makes sense to do that depends on what the apartment is worth at closing time. So, it's not worth it and they do not exercise their option. Instead of doing that, it might be in both parties interest to come up with a new agreement. That's perfectly acceptable. The developer won't make a new agreement unless they deem it in their best interest.
Let's all be very clear that when an asset deteriorates by greater than the amount of the initial deposit, it is very much in the interests of the seller to ensure the sale is closed.
Let's say BDS purchased a unit for $1mm and put his $100k down. If the market values the unit at $700k at time of close, it is BDS' contractual right (unless otherwise stipulated) to not close and take a $100k loss instead of taking ownership of an asset that has devalued 30% since original negotiations. The basic tenet of hope for BDS is that Extell and it's consortium of investors would want BDS to close so they are not left with $100k in deposit and a 20%+ asset devaluation that may take many many years to reverse course.
Many, and I mean many, transactions are re-negotiated in good faith between the original signing of the contract and the closing date. To insinuate that BDS is immoral for attempting to lower his cost of ownership for an asset he will invariably take a loss on is ignorant at best, disrespectful at worst.
Well said RE_Economist and wishhouse - thank you for the contributions. Your inputs make this board valuable for all of us.
I agree this is very interesting. Not sure how all this plays out though.
If the prices must come down to match rents and the market, but the prices
can't come down because of the deal the developer has with his investors and
banks, then what happens?
no one is impugning BDS's morality. here's the deal. he/she has approached the developer to discuss renegotiating. the developer has apparently chosen to ignore/refuse these requests. bds can choose to attempt to follow a legal course of action to recoup some or all of their deposit (an iffy propostion for all the reasons endless mentioned), walk away from their deposit (with perhaps the hope that the developer will reconsider) or go through with the deal.
endlessly discussing how the developer is acting foolishly, irrationally, delusionally, etc. is as unfounded as suggesting that bds has a morality problem.
my objection is the endless around and around and around on an issue that while clearly painful financially has a limited number of outcomes.
For all the concerned buyers in the Rushmore - we have a private google group so that we can share ideas, information and concerns openly.
If you are interested, please email - RushmoreResidents@gmail.com
Please note, in order to create an open enviornment for buyers, we'll be asking you to verify that you are not affiliated with Extell/Corcoran in what ever way is comfortable for you (i.e. email us from a work email address or unit/dates purchased, etc).
BDS, what is the price psf that you are in contract for? I'm not trying to pry for curiosity sake, but I think that it would help your arguement and you standing on this board. Meaning, if your are contracted to pay $1000, it is different than if you are contracted at $1400.
bds, save yourself the grief...join the private group and see if you can salvage some of your money. I actually wish you the best of luck.
"my objection is the endless around and around and around on an issue that while clearly painful financially has a limited number of outcomes"
I understand your point and agree there are a few high level outcomes CC, but a number of ways at the ground level to come to a conclusion as to which one is the most attractive, hence the endless conversation. Everything is arbitraged in terms of opportunity cost against the value of the original deposit. The worst case scenarios are either to take ownership of an asset with a deflated market value or to walk away completely from the original deposit.
The reason why this conversation will come up is due to the rapidly evolving economy and the evolution of decision making that will allow subsequent mistakes to be avoided. Pre-Lehman fallout, it would have been advantageous to close on the unit, while 2 months after it became more intelligent to just completely walk away. 7-8 months later, the macroeconomic conditions may begin to entice Extell to pull back just a little bit on the 'ride out the storm' thinking and confront the reality of today: no more of their units are selling at $1600+/ft and there are still 2 more buildings in the hopper.
To refuse concessions or further negotiation at this stage, while certainly Extell's legal right, is detaching them from the customers who put faith in the project and the marketing brochure and it's worth a bit of poking and prodding from the buyer community to ask Extell to shoulder some of the damage that is beyond everyone's control. Does Extell have to? No. Does it make it wrong for buyers of the units to work relentlessly in limiting their loss and preserving wealth? No.
Well said RE_Economist. This is a tough situation for everyone and certainly causing significant emotional strain, and potentially financial strain on a lot of the buyers. In addition to trying to figure out the best economic outcome, some buyers are simply trying to cope with the situation and it helps to brainstorm, share information, and revisit issues as the dynamics are changing daily.
I'm glad this hasn't turned into a Curbed thread with endless stupid comments and insults. Let's try to keep it that way.
Re economist, you speak for all of us. I applaud you.
Is it Extell or private investors who are dropping the prices at Ariel to just over $1000 psf? I've seen a few on Natefind.com recently in the last week or so.
Skippy2222 -- It must be unit owners (wouldn't want to call them investors; who knows why someone sells in this economy), as virtually all of the Avery was sold out and closed.
it is hard to be buying anything or selling anything when the global market is anything but stable. But all should look back and remember why your signed the contract in the first place. If you bought to flip in a few months then I suggest you walk or FIGHT for your deposit back.
If you bought to live in the unit then enjoy the unit, you are buying in a quality building from a reputable developer/architect and contractor; you will be able to sell for a profit one day. Stop stressing and once the building is complete which it seems like it will be before the summer, live your life! Worst case scenario is that you hold onto the unit and live in it (or rent it) longer than you had originally anticipated.
I live in the area and I swear I really love the physical location. Retail will come once the area fills in a bit over the next year or so...
People on this board are acting like the Rushmore is in a dangerous area in the Bronx and was built non union by amateurs.. it i far from it..!!!! If you think you overpaid and cant afford it then try and renegotiate the price or get concessions; worth a shot,
Congrats to all those that will be moving to this incredible neighborhood and building!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Get past the doom and gloom, its not healthy,
streetscyc, yikes, i predict you're about to be ripped a new one
Looks like several lower floor/north side move-ins...lights, lamps, etc. Most every other floor still not complete (I can see into the windows at night where workers have left on lights).
The upper cement facades on both towers are still incomplete- large panels missing and no cranes left...will they just leave it incomplete? Still several windows missing in the 2 towers as well...
Great article in the Times this am on the collapse of the Manhattan RE market.
All the while the building going up next to it wipes out more and more southern exsposure. That new building will be complete and before the Rushmore at the pace they are going (2 floors per week- up to 22nd so far).
I sit, and I wait.
bdkrivit, I know you don't have a crystal ball, but when you say wait, do you see the time to jump in approx 6 mos, a year?
I will purchase within 2 years, prob not before 2009 ends...looking at Avery, Rushmore, the new bldg next to Rushmore, etc. I know nothnig about RE, this will only be my 2nd purchase. It will also be my final purchase, so I am not too concerned about timing the bottom, since I will most likely own it for my life. I couldn't afford these bldgs in an up market, so I am hoping to buy a little out of my league on the down tick.
Got it...I have to sell first, so I am locked in for awhile. So your time frame encourages me. No Rush, this will take awhile. Also, I wonder how many of those lower floors at the Rushmore that are occupied are individual buyers or those that were purchased by investors?
bdkrivit, in a year or so it will probably be apparent which buildings are functioning at least moderately well. but still, be careful, because it can take awhile for people to be forced out in Manhattan, and you don't want to be in a building with a lot of units not paying common charges.
Has anyone been to this building lately to see the progress on the interior and amenities? Last I heard the developer was expecting to complete the amenities and clean up most of the hallways by late April/early May. Have a hard time seeing them accomplishing that with the Avery still missing some of its finishing touches (wall art, courtyard).
No wonder even more folks are moving to sidelines... you get paid to wait for further declines!
Hypo is the lender to the Rushmore project. They are about to be nationalized by the German government. I wonder how this may affect the building.
As more people are getting closing notices, I thought I'd post this again -
I have been in the Rushmore a month ago and the lobby looks really nice (I have to admit), that's all I have seen. I know the Avery as I'm a renter there. It is the worst run building here on Riverside Blvd.
There are maybe 2-3 doormen/concierge which are efficient, very often there is nobody there or they are very busy chating with the concierge. On weekends there very often only a cocierge which is hiding behind the counter. The corridors are dirty, in the gym you could drop dead and nobody will find you bc there are neither cameras nor any attendant as in all other condos at Riverside Blvd.
The finishes are really not great. Very scary considering that Extell has the same managment company for The Rushmore.
I have sent to the RushmoreResidents@gmail.com a message and would love to meet as many people who signed contracts at The Rushmore as possible.
I have filed a complaint with the Attorney General. Extell is in default in many aspects. I have consulted with several attorneys and everyone told me that we have a very good case.
Reiselamerica -- Did any of the attorneys you spoke to suggest how long it would to have any case work its way either through the attorney general's office or the courts?
Reiselamerica...sounds too good to be true. We really hope that you are onto something.
"the lobby looks nice?" don't get your hopes up--not a rocket scientist here, i think.
"I have consulted with several attorneys and everyone told me that we have a very good case." by Reiselamerica
WELL..If you consulted with some lawyers, presumably you gave them some "facts", and they gave you some "analysis" of a potential recourse, so what was all this?...Right now, it sounds like peddling miracle drugs to terminally ill patients.
DEPOSITORS: Your anxiety is understandable. If you end up walking, you may look back on this as a blessing in disguise, if things go as bad as this builidng well might, and the market as a whole.
no doubt in my mind to part two above rather than buy now or be priced our forever i think it is clearly a case of get out with 85% intact.
One of the attorneys which I consulted worked at the Attorney General's office and I know that there are another 2 complaints filed at the AG office based on the same "facts" which are in part of the offering plan. Nobody can tell you how long it takes but it would not surprise me if it takes 1 year or longer.
To all those "positve" purchasers, what do you have to loose if you fight? if we all fight together?
I will go to the congress man, I will go to court if the AG doesn't move. I have a very clear case, it's written in the offering plan.
When I say that the lobby is nice, I would still be interested in the apartment in The Rushmore if the price is right and if I had assurance that I will not be the only resident in the building.
Let's be smart and work together you have nothing to loose.
Reiselamerica. did you contact email@example.com?
yes, I did and I sent already proof the I am not working for Extell or associates and hope to meet already someone very soon. bds - I really would like to meet as many people as possible.
Reiselamerica, I don't think that will be a problem!
bds - send me an email to Reiselamerica@gmail.com
Yes, you all are paying a great deal of money but this should be becasue you are buying a home in a quality building and location. Based on some of these comments it seems as though you are buying a crap non union construction job in the ghetto... Get over it. (unless you are a flipper then I would say walk and get on the next deal) My wife and I will probably be buying before the summer since we love the area and the building. The world and especially Lincoln Square is not coming to an end people!
care to explain the factual basis for your opinion?
StreetsNYCD = Corcoran Sunshine Sales Person
message for StreetsNYCD and many others who don't know better
I had apartments and lived at 220 RSB, at The Heritage, at 120 RSB and now in the Avery.
The Avery is worse than living in a third class rental building. There are only 2-3 doormen who actually understand that their job consists in opening the door. Most of them are busy socializing with the concierge, who has to be told and instructed that his job consists also in announcing a guest.
Delivery guys a running alone through the bldg. The gym is not attended. Drop dead and it might take few hours until someone finds you in there bc cameras are also not installed. Who wipes down the working machines?? (most of them are defective) Really this is a luxury condo???
The managment company for The Avery is the same as for The Rushmore. Something to look forward to.
Regarding all these people who are so eager to make us understand that a contract is a contract. You are right, 2 parties have to stand up for what they promissed. Extell wants top Dollars, I want what they made us believe that we would be buying.
Does this sound familiar: Marvel at the unobstructed views of the river and lush green parks......
When I look out of the my window of The Avery, 1 year after moving in, I used to see only 6 weeks ago a great construction crane, now it's already much better, it's only a dump for construction material and parking lot for workers of The Rushmore. When does Extell want our money? Now or in 2-3 years when I will finally have my unobstructed views of the river and lush green parks??
here, here, Reiselamerica.
Sorry but you don't even know what you are talking about
Reiselamerica, if Silverstein was not able to wiggle out of the Twin Towers deal after 9-11, you think you gotta a better chance b/c your view is obstructed? You must have some serious ballz or know got $0 to lose? You do know if the zoning law changes and they start allowing piers to be built past the WSH (when we are all teleporting to work) , that your "view" is not guaranteed? I am so sure that there is a "clause" in your by-laws and offering memorandum which allows for a wide array of "modifications" due to market situations like the marble shown cannot be gotten b/c there is a huge earthquake in Italy's quarry. I've dealt with new construction in the 80/90's, just f'n read the by-laws and off mem, it's the bible, you are just doing "I'll be the panhandler standing in front of your grocery store, until you give me some free food" shtick.
Mr. Silverstein is a investor.
I wonder with whom the courts, attorney general, congress men, press, will have more sympathy? For Extell who is the one trying to wiggle out of their obligations under the offering plan or us who have put up top Dollars for a bad merchandise/service.
Resiselamerica, I stand corrected. You don't know the amount of sympathy you will get from courts, AG, Congress men/women and Barney Franks, NYTimes, my nanny, the fruit picker in California, the starving Sudanese, the raped child brides of Afghanistan, the homeless guy on 70th CPW and don't forget your Sunshine RE broker will have on people who will lose just 10% on a $3MM ("home") while all the other buyers in 07/08' are taking a 30% hit yoy.....
Accept my apologies, SUE ON! I say.
Oh, can't you sue your husband for not giving you an orgasm too in the last 10 yrs?
OH SH_T!!!!!!!! How'd I miss this???? Come on w67th... get sharp on your "deathbed!" It must be the nyquil, you were "buying a home" in 2002-2008, by "flipping" from 120RSB, the heritage, 220RSB and took all the equity/flip profits in the 7 yrs to "quadruple down" on the Rushmore! You put the deposit down and are renting at the AVERY! OMG! are you a douche and all that was wrong w/ the last 8 yrs. Reiselamerica, I wish you nothing but for the AG to throw this crap at you b/c the last I heard, there is just one "financial" crimes AG and he's busy chasing "mortgage" equity thieves.
Are you planning on getting an injunction against the "tyrannical" closing date?
Again, w67street appears to be very emotionally involved in this case - sounds like a broker attached to this project.
Streeteasyfan, the Rushmore is the pinnacle of why we are here. Here are some relevant facts:
1) Easy credit;
2) buyers not honoring their contracts;
3) Unrealistic income/Debt and Debt/Equity, CF/Debt payments on home purchases;
4) Buyers whose jobs/income are questionable;
5) No due-diligence on the part of buyers/lenders/developers;
6) lack of counter-party risk assessment;
7) My DICK bigger than yourz mentality of buying.
I have a very straight moral compass that likez to spat around imbeciles w/o the ability to question their own "incentives" and the meaning for the larger society.
So Resiselamerica, is this your "home" until you can flip it? You me lady are a player in the PONZI scheme, your last name isn't madoff?
"I have a very straight moral compass "
Is it just me ...or is this guy w67thstreet out of his frigging mind. He would merit a parody thread, but, alas, is beyond parody.
This was on another thread, posted by w67th in case you missed this gem:
"I promised my mother thad I'd keep a 1bdrm co-op for her.... but my in cost was $90K and that was leveraged money back in 1990's. My commercial properties are cash flowing like mad with 6 yrs to go, back-stopped with an LC from Citi (thank you tax payers). No debt and getting closer to $1.1MM cash, wife is a doc and our monthlies are ridiculously low. Saw this play before. In order to keep my 832 Credit score it helps to "own" debt free unit in NYC with a long term ownership and nothing like commercial RE w/ cash flow to leverage my ass up in the 1-5 yrs when rent vs. own equation flip flops.. Believe, me I am beyond buying "residential" at this point. Can you imagine picking up a General Growth asset at 30% of build cost, or Rushmore units at 80% discount or 70% of build cost and then I will reveal my real identity as Petrifitz!"
PLEASE...MORE ABOUT YOUR MOTHER !!!!
of course w67th is out of his friggin' mind. that is his charm. he's kind of like the George Carlin of the financial/real estate blog.
i fully believe he is here solely to amuse himself. that he frequently amuses me also is just my bonus.
He wanted to be a bully in eight grade but (well, what happened back then?)......but wait..just like investing, patience paid off..and the internet was invented and so now he can post wacko attacks.
well..since he can't be parodied...maybe there should be a thread to collect his wackiest posts....
i'm amused by w67th ...