We have found lots of information on insidescools.org, but wanted to see if any parents could offer insight on the pros and cons of PS 166, PS 75, PS 9, PS 87 and the Anderson School (and any others I missed). Specifically, are PS 9 and PS 87 supposed to be far better than the others and how are the G&T programs in general? Thanks.

Would also like to add:

Does anyone know/heard about people being turned away even though they live in the correct zone because of ovec-crowding?

i don't think your link is spelled correctly starfish. no h in 'scools'

starfish, go to urbanbaby.com and search every school by number. fyi, all the schools you have listed are zoned publics except for anderson which is a very selective citywide school which shares a building with ps 9 and ps 9 G&T.

alex09, I think urbanbaby seems to attract a fairly harsh audience when it comes to schools, so we are trying to stay away from that for now. As an example, our son is in a private nursery school now that we love, but if you type it into urbanbaby you will get tons of fairly harsh comments from people who claim to know the school. I think the whole kindergarten application madness has driven lots of people to post some not-so-unbiased comments about schools (at least on the private side, maybe it is different for public).

And, yes, there is a spelling mistake in my original post.

oh most of those women are hysterical about schools and many are flat out insane. but if you know that going in and are ready to sort through a certain amount of non sense, they are still an excellent source of info second only, imo, to actually visiting each school and speaking with parents.

alex09: Anderson (PS334) is moving - about seven blocks south, I think.

starfish: I could rank them based on reputation/prevailing wisdom, but not many people are qualified to do fair comparisons because few families have children in multiple schools. I will say this for Anderson: it's pretty rare for anyone to transfer from 334 into any of the other programs on your list. Aside from Anderson, 9 G&T and 87 are certainly the most sought-after seats, and probably enjoy the highest level of parental involvement. 9 Gen Ed benefits from PTA fund-sharing with the G&T program. I don't know much about 166 G&T, which was born of a turf war between 9 and 166 a decade or so back.

Thanks, West81st.

i hope that means a significant expansion of the program. maybe they'll even admit a couple of those dense 98%ers who don't have a sibling at the school.

I have typically heard that PS 87 is the most desirable of the zoned UWS public schools. Obviously, G&T programs are desirable as well but you can typically test in to these from anywhere in the city.

Sorry if this question sounds dumb:

The original question was about elementary. Does the quality of school zones 'completely' change when you get to Middle school, High School?

E.g If you can't afford private, do parents generally end up moving from a good zone for elementary to a better zone for Middle and High school?

you can only test into the G&T program in your district. so as an uwsider, starfish's child could apply to the G&T programs at ps 9 and ps 166, but those programs are quickly filling up with anderson "rejects" whose erb scores are in the very high 90s, pushing basically any kid with a score bellow 95 into their gen ed. hopefully this will lead to more parents involvement at the gen eds, improving the schools.

Any chance they'll make more G&T programs? PS191 used to have one but no longer does, I beleive 199 never had a G&T. If more there are more kids with hig erb scores than G&T seats why not make new programs at schools like this?

as far as i know the only zoned middle school is Wagner on the ues and it has to admit anyone who lives between 59th and 96th. but that school is supposed to be somewhat "rough".

I have 2 kids, ne that is finishing up at 87, the other is in middle school at MS 54, the Delta Honors program. I am delighted with both. I am a product of a NYC private school so I must admit to being very biased at first. I think the staff at both schools is superb. There is always the Hunter option in 7th grade if you want to go that route.

buglerex, you are zoned for an elementary, your neighborhood school. but for middle and high school you have to test and apply to the appropriate school in your district, which is different. you can see the district maps on insideschools.org . uws is district 3, which limits the good middle school option to the very excellent Delta program. i don't know what is happening with center school, so maybe someone who does can chime in. you can always dream the impossible dream and apply to anderson middle. but because most kids who attend anderson for elementary go on to the middle school, the chances are slim to none.

There is also computer school for middle.

karen23/alex09: QUIET, YOU FOOLS!!! DON'T TELL THEM ABOUT DELTA!!!

Center is moving into the PS9 building.

...and there goes our other secret. Thanks a lot, 10023. Now we have to do a Men In Black memory-wipe on everyone on this board that has a child under ten.

Besides the Computer School, there is Mott Hall Middle School, MSC (middle school, though they start at K), Center School (now relocated to PS9 building), Anderson Middle. And Hunter. There, I think that was exhaustive.

There are numerous private schools (though some say admission to middle is impossible). You could always look into Catholic (much cheaper).

West81st: these parents will apply for middle when your kids are in college. Don't worry.

G&T education - very explosive touchy topic. Many critics have pointed out (rightly so) that it is a way for UMC/MC parents to take advantage of free public education while segregating their children from kids of different socio-economic backgrounds. There is always huge public rancor about accessibility of G&T testing for all. Don't look to the DOE to expand G&T unless it's a ploy to turn around a failing public school. You know that many of these critics also want to take down the selective high schools. There are very strong opponents of any kind of academic streaming on the basis that the racial/socio-economic makeup of the students ends up not reflective of NYC demographics.

And one more, Special Music School goes to 8th grade. But you have to audition.

In the 1960s there was an elementary school program called IGC (Intellectually Gifted Children) that was eliminated shortly after. At the time local rumor had it being cut out because it was supposed to be "racist" in concept (which I still don't quite understand, to me it always seemed racist to assume that IGC--now G&T--students couldn't come from minority neighborhoods). Now I wonder if it wasn't really a casulty of the NYC fiscal crisis of the 1970s. Everything was seen through a much more politcial/confrontational lens back then (I was a kid..but I read the papers even if only for the baseball scores...and you heard parents talking, etc).

this is why we are waiting at least 1 year to buy, maybe longer. need to see how the budget cuts will affect city life. if schools go, we buy in the burbs. even though i really really don't want to.

My goddaughter went to the G&T at 166. She was in kindergarten and the bus driver "lost her" so her hysterical mother pulled her and put her in 87--the bilingual program where four of our good friends had kids in. Middle school was a problem unless they applied to and got into Delta. My goddaughter wanted to go to the Museum School as she loves science. Unfortunately she's a Caucasian Hispanic and was picked on for a year for being "too light" among other things. As she has Black cousins and thought she was Black until about age ten this affected her mother more than her.

For high school all the girls went to Beacon which was incredible for them. They're all now freshman at "competitive" colleges and find it easier than high school.

The key is parental involvement--and it really helps to be a a two parent household. One year my friend used all her vacation time on school related things. My friends actually lived in the area zoned for PS 9 but didn't want (even if in the G&T) their kids going to a school that seemed so "elite." All the parents are professionals. They chose to stay in the city and wanted their kids to experience city life to the fullest--my goddaughter's mother wasn't expecting such a full life

WEst81...Not to worry, any progeny of someone who can write up an open house report as well as you do has nothig to worry about. Delta would be lucky to get them!

We (no kids now, but hopin' and prayin') are attempting to buy into the P.S. 75 district, based partly on the insideschools.com review --

but honestly, as someone who went to both public and private schools not in New York, I can't believe the extent to which New Yorkers get worked up about school selection. NYC's good and bad schools are both head-and-shoulders above schools in much of the rest of the country.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

new yorkers get worked up about schools because there is no option for an average student which a certain demographic of parents finds acceptable. of course everyone's sweet little dumplings are the absolute bestest, but will they score that 98% on their erbs when the time comes? we hope so, but can't really know, can we? and i certainly will not put any pressure on a 4 yo to "achieve". if, however, we live in millburn or summit or madison or any of the "good" suburban towns, my kids are guaranteed a spot in that school system no matter what. and you can't really gloss over the fact that in ny's bad schools the issue is not even academic achievement, but physical safety.

Front Porch: Careful, The bad ones can be really bad. The just okay ones can be pretty bad too.

karen23: Thanks for the words of encouragement. Hoping to see you up at 54 before long.

ali: I'd like to connect offline to chat about the 'hood - schools, buildings, etc. I'm reachable via at gmail dot com.

ali:
"but honestly, as someone who went to both public and private schools not in New York, I can't believe the extent to which New Yorkers get worked up about school selection. NYC's good and bad schools are both head-and-shoulders above schools in much of the rest of the country."

I think you're smoking the good stuff again. Many of the public schools in many parts of the country kick ass on an income normalized basis huge. Many of NYC's suburbs, northern VA, Suburbs north of Chicago, outside of San Fran. Only NYC's best public schools can compete with these. If you choose to go public instead of private, do your homework. Yes you may be right, some of the bad schools may be head and shoulders above some, not much of the country. But Front Porch don't live in the swamps of Alabama. If Front Porch wants her future rug rats crawling on Persians, instead of sewing Persians, get them into a "great" school.

Oops - I forgot that anything formatted like an HTML tag becomes non-display. Make that: my SE screenname at gmail dot com.

"I think you're smoking the good stuff again. Many of the public schools in many parts of the country kick ass on an income normalized basis huge. Many of NYC's suburbs, northern VA, Suburbs north of Chicago, outside of San Fran. Only NYC's best public schools can compete with these."

Agreed 100%.

We've had so many years of terrible, terrible school that we seem to think of mediocre as great. Have you actually looked at high schools in this town after the specialized schools?

Long island schools cremate most of NYC.

P09, 10022: Check Ali's academic credentials. She seems to appreciate the value of a good education, and her progeny will likely have a reasonable shot at D3 G&T, Anderson, or whatever the equivalent is at that point. But yes, doing one's homework is always good, and I wouldn't regard those superficial reviews on insideschools as the last word on anything.

thanks West81st, will do, though prob. tomorrow .. . must run to post office to mail a nice out-of-towner some keys.

Front porch don't live in the swamps of Alabama, but was raised in Arkansas, where honestly, safety was occasionally an issue, and most of the schools are just starving for resources. So NYC schools look rich to me. Plus am jealous of Mr. Front Porch for having gone to Stuyvesant, which frankly, was probably better than both of our colleges (Harvard and Northwestern).

However, as mentioned before, don't have the kidlets yet, so really shouldn't be commenting. I can't wait till that "best of everything for the progeny" gene kicks in!

ali r.
{downtown broker}

"P09, 10022: Check Ali's academic credentials. She seems to appreciate the value of a good education, and her progeny will likely have a reasonable shot at D3 G&T, Anderson, or whatever the equivalent is at that point. But yes, doing one's homework is always good, and I wouldn't regard those superficial reviews on insideschools as the last word on anything."

W81, I'm not going by reviews on inside schools... I'm going by DOE data. With all the improvements we've had, its still lousy, and pales in comparison with the places noted.

Our schools are getting better, yes but they still stink overall.

Frankly, I'm not worried about any of our progeny. If they fail at school, it will be their fault.

Fornt Porch: I'll lobby for your yet unborn progeny to get into Delta if Mr. Front Porch will put in a word for us at Harvard!

10022: Easy there, my edgy Eastern friend. That wasn't for you. I was alluding to Ali's citation of the insideschools review of PS75.

10023: You're probably right, but that's not a widely-held sentiment along the 199/87/9G&T/334 axis of anxiety.

Karen: Um, Ali's the Harvard grad. Guess your kids are getting the thin envelope now.

Oops! Sorry Ali. Thank heavens the kids are brighter than I am!

so i wonder if in 5 years nytimes will run an article called "the sudden charm of homeschooling" when scores of children whose parents just assumed they would beat out 99% of their peers, i.e. children of other well educated upper middle class yuppies, don't make it into their local G&T and have no choice but to attend the sub par gen ed. which will become increasingly worse with the coming cuts in school and, sadly, police budgets. these are very serious issues and it's not just about having a smart child. already to get into anderson they have to score a 99 and then win a freaking random lottery draw. anderson already rejects many 99s. hopefully the influx of these smart kids into the gen eds will have a positive affect on the schools. but the schools issue is a crucial part of real estate purchase for many people.

I just saw an article about some fancy homeschooling outfit based in W. Village. Not really the traditional parent-as-teacher homeschool model, but more of a throwback to the governess/tutor model of the Victorian era. I kind of dig it. Elementary school is mostly socialization - how much do you really learn in a year at school anyway? I went to a very good private school and I remember doing all my assigned homework while the teacher was teaching, as well as simultaneously reading some novel under my desk.

You could easily teach everything and more to your child in less than 10% of the time, leaving the rest of the time for practice, playdates, and get this - no schlepping to school when it's a rainy day like today.

Hmm, fancy Ivy-league liberal arts FT tutor (on the books, with health benefits) would probably cost me 50k year. 3 kids, that's not bad.

Great idea! And "privately educated" has a ring to it. I nominate my niece (Smith, now grad school, probably totally unemployable) for your governess. Hold the spot open until the spot she's in dawns on her....

http://www.nypost.com/pagesixmag/issues/20090125/Hot+Teachers?page=1

If you could get a few other kids together, think about the kinds of young brainy grads you could hire. Go away for a couple of weeks in the winter to France to learn about prehistoric cave drawings, jungle treks. And colleges dig home-schooled kids (the normal types who do well on SATs).

i honestly think homeschooling will become increasingly more acceptable if people can't unload their apartments without losing a lot of money and the schools start getting worse.

What is old is new again. State-funded public school is a phenomenon that is less than 100 years old.

i read this thread, but i may have missed this info, so if this is a repeat, my apologies.

i have no idea what is going to happen to the new development Azure (and it doesn't look pretty) on the UES, but i had read that it was to include a middle school (or possibly solely, i can't recall), G&T.

i meant a middle school that includes, or is possibly solely, G&T.

you're talking about east side middle, it's a selective district 2 middle school on the ues. right now they share the space with ps 158 on york, but were supposed to move into the first 2 floors of that condo building for the 09/10 school year. i don't know if that is still the case since, as you say, the project is in trouble. as far as i know this is the only deal of it's kind, where a developer included a much needed school in their building. with the amount construction over the last several years, that is nothing short of shameful.

You jest about home schooling. We are in district three and a group of us were wondering about the likelyhood of getting our kids into the desired public middle school. I looked around at the group and there were: a lawyer, a journalist for a top NY paper, a concert musician and various other skilled professionals. There and then, we decided that between, us we had the time and the resources to home school. We still haven't heard re middle school acceptances but we are all committed to the idea if we can't achieve our goals (good education, safe enviornment) otherwise,

actually, Alex09, there are (were) a couple more, one midtown west, one downtown, but i'm not certain of the status of them. if solow had been allowed to go ahead on 1st avenue, there would have been another. i agree with you, there is absolutely no reason that concessions for educational facilities could not have been negotiated with the developers, either for schools in the buildings or nearby. i can't believe that it wouldn't have been possible to build a new lower and middle school to accommodate the increased demand from the new RSD developments.

i didn't realize, though, that this was the solution to the overcrowding issue at 158, i thought it was a new school. doesn't really help that much in terms of seats (although i presume it will increase available seats somewhat for both the ms and the ls) as the conditions are quite overcrowded to begin with.

Another one Alex and aboutready:
The Gehry designed Beekman tower near the south street seaport. K-8 planned to open in 2010 for which a K-1 feeder school is set to open in the Tweed courthouse building. Will alleviate the crowding in ps234 while another in BPC (could also be another example of what you are talking about but the details escape me at the moment) which will similarly alleviate crowding in PS89. Feeder in Tweed will be for this school also.

i only keep up with uws and ues schools, but that's great news for those communities. the thing about the ps 158 space is that it will most likely be annexed by ps 290 for their incoming k-2 grades. at least that's what i've read.

I know this thread is older, but can anyone shed some light on the new elementary school process that doesn't include total zoning? From my understanding even if you live in the school zone, you are not guaranteed a spot in the school? Has the process for kindergarten changed? Any insight would be great ... I imagine this would change some thoughts on buying apts so quickly ...

bump .... ???

"so i wonder if in 5 years nytimes will run an article called "the sudden charm of homeschooling" when scores of children whose parents just assumed they would beat out 99% of their peers, i.e. children of other well educated upper middle class yuppies, don't make it into their local G&T and have no choice but to attend the sub par gen ed."

Extremely unlikely, given the fact that the only reason most of these upper middle class families can even afford to live in Manhattan is because the wife is helping to pay the mortgage. Home schooling works only if a parent is actually HOME to SCHOOL the child.

NYCApt, are you referencing any schools in particular?
The only thing I can think of is what happened this year for ps234/89 and the tweed feeder school for the two new downtown schools set to open in 2010 or 2011.

That was a balls up and the DOE are trying to remedy the situation by going through the rezoning process now so there will not be anyone that is not zoned for an elementary school in that area. I don't know of any other areas where this kind of thing happened. PS3 and 41 had a waiting list that was being catered for in a different way but the details escape me. However, zones were not abandoned.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you mean by the not including total zoning part.

I was understanding that preference to elementary schools was given to people who had siblings in the school already, and then to people who live in the "zone", and lastly to others who want to attend the school. Maybe I am wrong? (I hope I am). I thought the goal was to diversify the elementary schools and not perpetuate the trend that is being seen on the UES and UWS.

The reason I ask is b/c I am considering a move from the UES to the UWS and feel like I know much more about the UES elementary schools than the UWS. PS 183, PS 59, etc are all substantial elementary schools on the UES. The apt in question for me is on 81st and WEA, which I believe is zoned for PS 9.

You have it slightly wrong, 1234. Priority is as follows:

1) Siblings in school & you live in zone.
2) No siblings in school & you live in zone.
3) Siblings in school, but you don't live in zone.
4) No siblings in school & you live in district.

Groups 1 & 2 take all the spots in PS199 and PS87, and group 3 wait with bated breath (and have so far) been lucky in getting in.

Ah, I see! Thank you so much for clearing this up!!!! Are 199 and 87 really the "premier" schools on the UWS? Or does PS9 hold some clout?

Can vouch for PS 199. Everyone I know with kids there is very happy. The potential loss of access here was almost a huge kerfuffle.

W81 would know better :) But, as of this year, there were no lottery spots available at PS9, which meant that all the spots must have been taken by groups 1-3.