Argyle Brooklyn - Park Slope/Gowanus

crimsonfilms: about 4 months ago

"That you think that your block is immune... wow, yes, you are in denial."

Coming from Mr. Oro is a better buy. Wow.

sjtmd:

1. About a quarter of the tennants have moved in. About half already closed with several more scheduled in the next several weeks.

2. Both lots you are talking about are not directly in front of it (north east). The firehouse and the low rise apartments are. Neither is going anywhere. And anyway, neither lots on the corner of 6th street is going to be build anytime soon. Financing fell through. And the closer one.

sjtmd: about 5 months ago

the drop dead date ("the First Closing of a Unit"), according to the offering plan was 12 months from June 1, 2008. If this was not met, each purchaser had 15 days to rescind. I believe a closing occurred "in time".

csmack: about 5 months ago

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2009/06/argyle_closings.php

Here you go, Slope. Brownstoner's been keeping a good log of this dev., as it does most new devs. in BK.

I could/would never live there, and I am avidly looking for a 3BR in PS, but to each his own!

Slope11217: about 5 months ago

Any updates on construction? Has anyone moved in yet? I believe buyers can back out as of July 1 if no C of O (vague memory from when I went to the showroom last summer). Can anyone confirm that?

sjtmd: about 6 months ago

Went to the building on Sunday. A few observations:
-this won't get done any time in the near future
-one elevator = lots of waiting around in the future
-fit/finish - so,so
-the exterior is out of a Dr. Seuss story - whoa! What color blue is that?
-for those who face east and the park - beware - two new 12 stories going UP across the street
-overpriced
...at least it is nicer than The Elan

nyc10022: about 6 months ago

> 4th Ave may not be immune (who is?) but YOUR Flatbush has already taken a beating. And I am in denial?

Uh, dude, its ALL tanking.

That you think that your block is immune... wow, yes, you are in denial.

nyc10022: about 6 months ago

> Being close to the "brownstone brooklyn" neighborhoods like Park Slope, Boerum Hill, Carroll Gardens > is far more interesting than Flatbush Avenue

My next suggestion for you... buy a map. Ever heard of Fort Greene? And Boerum Hill... you really claiming Flatbush should be closer to it? Uh, and you think Part Slope is nowhere near Flatbush?

Seriously, buy a map.

crimsonfilms: about 6 months ago

"4th avenue, low crime rate. Yes, if you close your eyes, the projects disappear."
Typical MO - hyperbole vs facts.

"And 100x the demand."
Right - because those price cuts from $800 to $650 sqft is the reflection of that as we stumble to 70% sold.

"And its not going to stop prices from tanking on 4th avenue."
Just like the "20%-30% decline" in Flatbush?
4th Ave may not be immune (who is?) but YOUR Flatbush has already taken a beating. And I am in denial?
Project much?

Man_Frog_Lust: about 6 months ago

Who knows - maybe I'm unique - but I far prefer 4th Avenue to Downtown Brooklyn. Being close to the "brownstone brooklyn" neighborhoods like Park Slope, Boerum Hill, Carroll Gardens is far more interesting than Flatbush Avenue... Yes you could have a view, and walk to Fort Greene... but the Fulton Mall element is a turn off for me. (And - laugh if you will - but I am a fan of industrial landscapes so am not turned off by the nearby Gowanus Canal, I think it's interesting... but happy it's at least 2 blocks away... it's further from the Argyle than 5th Avenue's restaurants after all.)

And it does go back to the conversation from the NY Times article about the fundamentals of condo ownership. I worry about buildings of several hundred units like those in Downtown are. I don't worry about a 60-unit condo that has 70% of the units in contract.

nyc10022: about 6 months ago

Sorry you feel you need to stretch tohe truth to justify your investment, but it is all incredibly transparent.

And its not going to stop prices from tanking on 4th avenue.

nyc10022: about 6 months ago

> stable pricing
Yes, 4th avenue... THATS stable.

> low crime rate
4th avenue, low crime rate. Yes, if you close your eyes, the projects disappear.

Om my lord, you are in such denial....

Keep trying, though.

> WAIT!! - you said that and then recommended the 'better' Flatbush Ave. Forte, Oro and Toren alone
> has like 500+ units. WTF!

And 100x the demand.

Seriously, you are so stretched out to try and rationalize, you're not transparent.

You now have multiple folks all saying you are delusional.

Sorry.

crimsonfilms: about 6 months ago

"4th avenue is in the middle of the biggest housing glut in the biggest housing glut borough."

WAIT!! - you said that and then recommended the 'better' Flatbush Ave. Forte, Oro and Toren alone has like 500+ units. WTF!

crimsonfilms: about 6 months ago

"20-30% declines, absolutely."
You must be refering to Forte's price cuts twice in 5 months. Good point.
stable pricing, great school district, great dining, low crime rate, etc - you really know how to comp them.

"I also take it by your resorting to personal posts that you're admitting you were completely wrong about your original assertion... that one got blown out of the water."

Oh wait... calling people bitter and delusion and I'm resorting to personal posts?
You must be competing for post count or something.

nyc10022: about 6 months ago

I also take it by your resorting to personal posts that you're admitting you were completely wrong about your original assertion... that one got blown out of the water.

nyc10022: about 6 months ago

20-30% declines, absolutely. Not buying in the bubble, call it being a "rebel" or whatever, I just call it not being stupid.

crimsonfilms: about 6 months ago

"No, as I said several times, 4th avenue is an inferior neighborhood."

It is good to be a rebel. I'm pretty sure the market is supporting you.

nyc10022: about 6 months ago

If I had to guess, about 100 times apiece.

Sorry to burst your bubble....

crimsonfilms: about 6 months ago

BTW - nyc10022 - have you actually ever been in those areas at all? Seriously.

nyc10022: about 6 months ago

"You really think that is the comp nyc10022? Then you know less about RE more than I initially gave you credit for."

No, as I said several times, 4th avenue is an inferior neighborhood.

crimsonfilms: about 6 months ago

You really think that is the comp nyc10022? Then you know less about RE more than I initially gave you credit for.
School district is comparable? The restaurants and services (KFC vs Al Di La)? Crime rate? Really?
Do you just crunch pricing numbers when basing your comps? Do you even know the neighborhoods? Are you one of those appraisers from a LI bank that compares a brownstone in PS and Ditmas?

AB-
Totally agree. Abatement has always been factored in by the developers. Anyway, banks don't judge loan application only on monthly mortgage cost but on overall carrying cost (mortgage, FULL tax HOA fees). But that is true of new devs or established one.

JKB: about 6 months ago

ab, couldn't agree with you more. With financing issues, location issues and general lack of charm with all these new developments, the word 'new development' is as much a deterrent as a draw for new buyers in Brooklyn. You really have to be selective.

And not to pile on Crimson, but Flatbush Corridor is pretty much THE comp for the 4th Ave. developments, in my opinion. Sure, you can split hairs on the differences between the two areas, but on most issues, they're almost interchangeable (housing stock, general condition and amenities of the area, access to subways, pricing, etc. etc.). And for some buyers, the Flatbush condos will have the advantage (views, mainly)

And with the economy what it is, all these developments are going to have the same two issues:

1) Downward price pressure because buyers can't get financing for new devs (how many all-cash buyers are going to want to purchase these places?); and
2) A weak and weakening argument that their surrounding areas are going to improve anytime soon.

Buy on 4th Ave. if it makes sense to you, but it's not a great argument to say you'll never get a better deal on a 2 BR in prime Brooklyn than the Argyle.

nyc10022: about 6 months ago

I don't think he's actually reading anymore... he gave up on the shilling.

ab_11218: about 6 months ago

Here's a listing that, in my opinion, is much better. It's not Park Slope, but Windsor Terrace. Closer to the park, the lake and the playground as well as the F-train. Let's not forget that you will actually have a school near by that you can send your kids to, unlike on 4th and 7th.

http://newyork.craigslist.org/brk/reb/1170416404.html

admin: about 6 months ago

110% agree ab, great article.

ab_11218: about 6 months ago

In my opinion, no one should be buying new construction anywhere there is a tax abatement. Once the abatement is over, you will not be able to give these condos away.

Read the bottom of page 2 and first paragraph of page 3, there is a clear explanation why anyone buying a condo, should really think twice or trice before committing.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/08/realestate/08COV.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2&ref=realestate

nyc10022: about 6 months ago

Why not? All fit the criteria you mentioned.
Sorry, you're wrong. You jumped up and down saying there was no comp, bla bla, and there it is.

Sorry.

And saying 4th avenue is a better neighborhood. Ha. They're both pretty crappy. But Flatbush has more going for it.

And, did you miss the massive chops on 4th ave...

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/11108-bklyn-and-fourth-avenue-comes-crashing-down

Whoops.

Try again though.

crimsonfilms: about 6 months ago

Flatbush corrider?
Uhm I went to school in the area (Brooklyn Tech) - you have to be shitting me if you think that is a better location than the 4th Ave between Union and 16th!! I know that neighborhood very well.

Not to mention those buildings are high rises. Nice try though. Why not add the Oro while you are at it.

nyc10022: about 6 months ago

Or, hell, Toren.

Pick anything on the Flatbush corridor.

Better transportation to Manhattan, right near multiple shopping areas - hell, the whole Fulton Mall scene, definitely various stores and services.

Cheaper.

And, on a big street being rezoned, just like 4th ave.

Next...

nyc10022: about 6 months ago

Forte!

next....

Slope11217: about 6 months ago

Comment was deleted by moderator.

crimsonfilms: about 6 months ago

Again it goes back to give me a comp - any comp.
It is pointless to keep harping about what you think instead of giving actual comps. This is about real estate right?
A development 2 blocks from a subway station, 1 block from dozens of restaurants and various stores and services. Decent travel to Manahattan. $675-$750 p/sqft. You are throwing all these hyperbol to make your case yet you have bring any comps. Dumbo was brought up (in the most general way) yet just taking a snap shot in regards to $ per sqft but the median price for a condo is 20% higher! Are there bargains in Dumbo? Sure. Are they the rule- of course not. So we have ruled out, Prospect Heights, Dumbo, Willy-B and LIC. What is left?

I mean there was a resale in 6th in PS around 12 ST a month ago for about $730 sqft. Those units are not exactly falling from the sky.

nyc10022: about 6 months ago

And to make this even easier... noone is saying move to Atlantic Avenue... and, in the same vein, some are also saying don't move to 4th avenue either. Neither has much going for it.

nyc10022: about 6 months ago

> There are a number of devs on or around Atlantic.

And there are fish in the sea.

Not sure how trying to point out the worst part of one neighborhood makes a different neighborhood any better. You're actually making the point worse... that the neighborhood you are promoting is on the level of the worst area of an up and coming area.

That doesn't say much for 4th avenue.

crimsonfilms: about 6 months ago

There are a number of devs on or around Atlantic.

Slope 11217 I love how you pound on the location thing and brings up the whole 'not addressing the issue' yet the dodge name a comp and can't name one. Yeah and I am dodging the discussion.

nyc10022: about 6 months ago

"That being said, I think the number of apartments in Prospect Heights that are on Atlantic Ave is approximately NONE.

On the other hand, the number of apartments on 4th Ave that are on 4th Ave is approximately ALL."

LOL.

Atlantic is often considered the border of Prospect Heights, but thats the least desirable part of the neighborhood. I wouldn't recommend there, either... same way I wouldn't recommend being on the outskirts of a good neighborhood where it gets crappy in other places - just like, well, uh, 4th avenue.

junkman_r_u_serious: about 6 months ago

Aren't there a few developments on Atlantic and Washington? Not nearly the # as were plopped down on 4th avenue but I do think there is some new condo construction over there.

BigA: about 6 months ago

>>I'm not an expert on the neighborhood boundaries in that area, but could you call Atlantic from approximately 6th ave to Washington Ave Prospect Heights? It seems to me Atlantic is just as much Prospect Heights as 4th ave is Park Slope.
<

Yes that's Prospect Heights, but how many apartments are on those blocks?

Crimsonstreet was saying Prospect Heights wasn't a viable alternative to 4th Ave because Atlantic Ave is just as bad. But the apartments in Prospect Heights aren't on Atlantic Ave. Comparing a terrible street with lots of condos to a terrible street with zero condos ain't exactly fair.

junkman_r_u_serious: about 6 months ago

I'm not an expert on the neighborhood boundaries in that area, but could you call Atlantic from approximately 6th ave to Washington Ave Prospect Heights? It seems to me Atlantic is just as much Prospect Heights as 4th ave is Park Slope.

It's all semantics though. Both streets would be horrible to live on.

BigA: about 6 months ago

> What other Brooklyn neighborhood that offers the same amenity and real estate stability at $650-$800 sqft.

Prospect Heights? If you think 4th Ave is bad, Atlantic Ave is better?
<

Atlantic Ave would probably not be any better to live on than 4th Ave. Both are crappy.

That being said, I think the number of apartments in Prospect Heights that are on Atlantic Ave is approximately NONE.

On the other hand, the number of apartments on 4th Ave that are on 4th Ave is approximately ALL.

crimsonfilms: about 6 months ago

You mentioned Dumbo :/