Tenants Buy Stuyvesant Town

aboutspready: about 2 years ago

cc, the ward seems to be like a compost pile. feeds off of itself. inonada is busy poking fun at the ward. maybe encouraging, who knows, who cares? hfs has continually lied about me, called me foul names, and yet oddly seems to feel the moral glow of superiority. i guess it's ok to attack me and call me foul names such as whore and to obsess over a toilet seat that even i don't really care that much about if you have some issues (and i'd say there are some issues). it's fine to attack people who have, btw, spent hours helping people with comps, helping many others (including my husband helping a couple of people for nothing), have formed relationships with a couple of dozen people from the website, etc.

hfs, wtf do you add to this? but i won't really find out, in the unlikely event you have a real answer, because i won't read your reply. but i don't need to read it, because the answer is so clearly nothing. happy holidays. i hope you find some peace.

hfscomm1: about 3 years ago

Remember everyone, all of the legal, financial and real estate advice is from a woman with neither a law degree, experience in finance, nor a brokerage license.

aboutready: about 3 years ago

dwell, the recourse itself is punitive. you don't have to go for punitives, they're just a given. think about it. most of the one bedrooms that have been destabilized have little in the way of damages, so probably half of the 4400 have damages. the ones destabilized recently have greater monthly damages, but less time accrual of damages. so about 2200 units have relatively significant damages, give or take a few. $300mm for that many apartments?

rraphael, i agree with much of what you write. but many of the elderly will not want to buy. the tenants had no voice in '06 when the tenants' association was trying to put together a deal. whether or not it could have been accomplished is now just a matter for conjecture. although a much better conceived notion than TS's in its structure, it too would have failed, so we can only be grateful they weren't successful. but yes, it makes a great deal of sense at this valuation.

i'm fairly certain the GSE debt is $1.5B. maybe you're thinking of the mezz. debt? and in this case i've read and am fairly certain that all but the senior debt holders are doomed. sometimes bad decisions do have consequences. pennies on the dollar isn't exactly a new concept.

rraphael98: about 3 years ago

So it seems like it could happen, (the tenants buying stuytown)

I mentioned a price of 2.5-3B, the price wasnt really the issue,
whether it can happen or not is more of what I was asking.
Also, that price was after all the back rents were paid back.

I thought the fannie/freddie debt was like 3B, maybe I'm wrong,
someone said its 1.5B.

I was thinking 2.5-3b because the lower debt holders arent going
to simply walk away from this are they? Even though they have written
this off they have no interest in just selling and getting nothing.
They would probably want to ride it out and possibly see profits long
term. In this case they would need to be paid off. (comments) Again,
maybe 2.5B-3B wasnt the right number, maybe closer to 2B.

Also someone said why buy when rents are so cheap. I would say the average
price for the 4350 re rent stabilized apartments are about $2,350 1br, maybe $2,550
for a 2br. Who wouldnt want to buy that for $250K-$300K. First the mkt price on an
apt like that is like 550K 1br give or take. Second the mortgage on lets say 275K minus
20% down plus 900 main is about $1,600.

Someone said the original tenants, the other 6,850 whos rent has always been rent
stab have rents of about $1,500. This makes sense to them as well. Also, the 6,850
portion, for some reason, was willing to buy at 4.5B in 06.

dwell: about 3 years ago

w67 said p*nis!!!!!! teeheehee

essentially, treb dams are puni dams

g'nite folks

hfscomm1: about 3 years ago

excellent, now both me and w67thstreet are being ignored by aboutready

aboutready: about 3 years ago

dwell, i'm sorry, i'm not totally conversant. but it's not a question of the court imposing punitives. as far as i know treble damages are just built into this situation. nothing discretionary involved. or punitive. that's my point. it's not a question of punitive damages.

w67thstreet: about 3 years ago

impose penis? What the hell kind of judgement is that?..... oh...

dwell: about 3 years ago

Here, Ct can impose punis cuz RSL allows punis for willful overcharge. But, this ain't a willful overcharge case.

hfscomm1: about 3 years ago

aboutready, is this the Judge Lowe your husband doesn't like?

aboutready
14 minutes ago
ignore this person
report abuse http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/17114-tenants-buy-stuyvesant-town?page=2
dwell, sweets, yes and no. i think the damages issue comes within a different statutory authority, for this, but i could be wrong. and here we aren't talking dhcr. we're talking the state courts. so if there are any unresolved issues, the roberts case goes back to judge lowe, who my hubby says is one of the absolute worst, so the fact that the parties are trying to resolve this without going back to a judge who is landlord friendly indicates to me that TS needs to get this shit wrapped up to get out of the complex. that para was very convoluted and now that i wrote it i think the analysis could be changed, all along the way, but the result is likely the same so i'll let it go.

http://www.nynd.uscourts.gov/bios/ghl.htm
Judge George H. Lowe

George H. Lowe was appointed a United States Magistrate Judge for the Northern District of New York in February 2004. For the previous twenty-one years, he had been a partner at the Syracuse firm of Bond, Schoeneck & King, concentrating in white collar criminal defense and federal court civil litigation.

Judge Lowe is a graduate of Williams College and Columbia University School of Law. Following graduation from law school and service in the U.S. Army, he joined the New York City firm of Thacher Proffitt & Wood as a litigation associate. Subsequently, he moved to Syracuse and for five years was an Assistant United States Attorney for the Northern District. He later was appointed as the District’s United States Attorney, in which position he served for four years.

Judge Lowe has served as President of the Onondaga County Bar Association; Chair of the Fifth Judicial District’s Committee on Character and Fitness; an Officer and Director of Legal Services of Central New York; and a Director of the Onondaga County Bar Foundation; and an Officer and Trustee of the Federal Court Bar Association for the Northern District. He served two terms as a Director of the National Association of Former United States Attorneys and in 2003 was elected as the Association’s President-Elect. In 2002, he received the New York State Bar Association President’s Pro Bono Services Award; and in 2003, he received the American Bar Association Senior Lawyers Division’s Pro Bono Award. In 2007 Judge Lowe was appointed as the Co-Chair of the New York State Bar Association's Committee on Access to Justice. He is a member of the State Bar's Special Committee on Senior Lawyers and is the Chair of the Onondaga County Bar Association's Pro Bono Practice Committee.

aboutready: about 3 years ago

julia, i don't think kindness is an option for this person, sadly.

julia: about 3 years ago

hfscomm1...it's almost Christmas how about being kind for the holiday...

aboutready: about 3 years ago

dwell, yes, about 25,000 units, if you split the numbers, are at issue here. not so many, if you think about it. and 4400 are in PCV/ST. i think a similar number are in another large development. so you have roughly 15000 units that may be affected and in limbo. that's out of all of NYC.

dwell: about 3 years ago

http://www.chpcny.org/pubs/Court%20of%20Appeals%20Decides%20Stuy%20Town.pdf

This article discusses the impact of the uncertainty left by the Ct of Appeals.

hfscomm1: about 3 years ago

aboutready
1 minute ago
ignore this person
report abuse
... "the roberts case goes back to judge lowe, who my hubby says is one of the absolute worst," ...

now we have you on record about a judge

hfscomm1: about 3 years ago

aboutready
1 minute ago
ignore this person
report abuse dwell, sweets, yes and no. i think the damages issue comes within a different statutory authority, for this, but i could be wrong.

uh, maybe because you didn't go to law school?

aboutready: about 3 years ago

dwell, sweets, yes and no. i think the damages issue comes within a different statutory authority, for this, but i could be wrong. and here we aren't talking dhcr. we're talking the state courts. so if there are any unresolved issues, the roberts case goes back to judge lowe, who my hubby says is one of the absolute worst, so the fact that the parties are trying to resolve this without going back to a judge who is landlord friendly indicates to me that TS needs to get this shit wrapped up to get out of the complex. that para was very convoluted and now that i wrote it i think the analysis could be changed, all along the way, but the result is likely the same so i'll let it go.

but there is more than $300M in escrow. i can't possibly think that's simple damages for 4400 apartments, many of which wouldn't get much at all (the one bedrooms).

the problem with the decision was that it was a court of appeals case on one issue of law. you might dislike the uncertainty, but sadly that was all that court was asked to adjudicate. and now you have a banktrupt ll who has to deal with the decision and get out. so they won't likely return to the legal battlefield, and they'll create some presumption of possible obligation but not a certain one. hard for a landlord, i'd agree.

hfscomm1: about 3 years ago

example of aboutready's "moral glow of superiority"

"other than harlem i don't really follow the emerging markets, other than to poke fun at LIC because i can't stand LICC, ericho and carolst. but that's just a pasttime.
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/17038-feeettttt-to-fire-did-noah-admit-to-prices-decreasing-in-the-next-1-3-years

hfscomm1: about 3 years ago

aboutready
1 minute ago
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..." hfs has continually lied about me"

nope, the truth is too good

aboutready: about 3 years ago

dwell: about 3 years ago

Hey, AR luv,

Gots to disagree with you re: treble damages. When I was practicing, had many cases where DHCR did not impose treb dam because I showed O had no bad intent, but rather it was an error. Puni dams are puni because they punish wrong doing. Here (as I read the case), the O had no 'bad intent' & they didn't do anything wrong, but rather (ironically) they obeyed the law by following DHCR's interpretation. Thus, there's no wrong doing as a result of bad intentions or bad actions, but rather a change in the interpretation of a statute.

I know a lawyer who worked on the RS issues & complaints that emanated from the Ansonia; bought a country house & got college tuition for his kids. Yup, Aunt Sonia was the gift that kept giving.

Yes, this decision is karma biting Tishman in the ass for overpaying & for treating Ts like crap. But, I dislike decisions like this because they create uncertainty for many people: Ts, Tishman, banks & NYC. A really good decision would have tied up some of the loose ends so that people could glean where the ultimate disposition was heading & thereby make plans accordingly. I don't like decisions which are game changers that leave everyone in limbo, wondering where it's all headed.

hfscomm1: about 3 years ago

columbiacounty, you just don't get it.
No one encourages me except you and the people of your general repugnance.
I'm only "encouraged" by the people I attack..
That means you, aboutready, and a few others.

columbiacounty: about 3 years ago

inonada: looks like your ward is having a hell of a time tonite. nice work encouraging him.

julia: about 3 years ago

things are so wacky in manhattan...I'm in the market earlier and start talking with the woman behind me on a very long line when, of course we start talking about rents, etc. She lives in a Mitchell Lama bldg. on 24th and 1st avenue...2 bedrooms for $350.00 a month. My jaw dropped and I immediately fainted. Almost.

aboutready: about 3 years ago

dwell, i'm not saying it's right, but in terms of the treble damages issue the statutes generally have punitive built right in, evil intent doesn't matter. result of a century or so of landlords abusing rental tenants (not that your of that ilk, of course).

in terms of the cluster effect, there really aren't that many apartments affected city-wide, irregardless of what some would like you to believe.

inonada, i'd like to revive some terms that were frequently used in the past. forget those that haven't yet been accepted, and as my very geeky daughter would say, multus eheu.

ph41, i can't thank you enough for pointing out (sorry, could have used a better verb just there) my ignorant mistake. lordy, what was i thinking, presuming to reference something without spending some serious time considering whether my spelling were correct or whether i might appear foolish? good thing i don't really care about such things. but i'll be happy to return the favor as soon as is conveniently possible.

but it is strange. for all that you say that cc comes to my defense, i have definitely noticed that you often find some way to attack me, or involve me in your conversation, when cc attacks you. why? you find it witty to suggest that cc doesn't have any friends or sufficient funds to stay in the city and thus must sleep on my couch? so be it, and cc is always welcome to the aerobed if he should need it, but he doesn't and i hardly think it's nice to include me in such a way in your arguments with him. or you need to attack my error because cc points out one of yours? to channel w67th, which i'm trying to do more of these days, nice, nice.

hfscomm1: about 3 years ago

columbiacounty, what happens if you are fed after midnight?

columbiacounty: about 3 years ago

so...you're batman? and he's robin? hilarious.

inonada: about 3 years ago

"inonada - is it possible that the new rider in some way is getting Julia to accept an illegal conversion to market-rate rent?"

Who knows? It'd be suspect to me if I were julia.

dwell -- thanks for that analysis as it seems to provide an unbiased report for many of us who have never read the law or the rulings. Truly does sound like a clusterf-k. I wonder how much the bass-ackwards DHCR interpretation was influenced under-the-table by developers. If so, on the one hand, serves them right (developers) for trying to pull that BS. On the other hand, I'm sure hundreds of LLs acted (and paid prices) according to the DHCR interpretation with no ill intent.

Crap: I thought I was going to take hfs as my ward, but I turn away for a couple of hours, and it appears ph41 has become hfs's ward. Can't look away for a minute.

On the word irregardless:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/IRREGARDLESS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irregardless

Beauty of language is that if enough of us say a word, it gets entered into the language irregardless of whether it was there to begin with or not. Perhaps one day it'll have an "ancient genealogy" like the word "ain't".

hfscomm1: about 3 years ago

columbiacounty, what makes you smile?

I kind of picture you happy in this situation:
http://aniramita.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/gargamel.jpg

columbiacounty: about 3 years ago

i am not obsessed with you; for obsession, check my nutjob follower.

i am, as i have noted before, revolted by you.

ph41: about 3 years ago

cc - actually, more to the point, sorry you're so obsessed with me. Attacks on me totally from left field, having nothing to do with anything? (oh yes, anything that questions, in the slightest, AR's opinions, posts becomes a focal point for you - are you her father? her big brother? her knight in shining armor? I think AR is a smart woman who can speak for herself - but obviously you don't think so)

Again, "too ugly, STOP. STOP ) though that may not be an exact quote of CC.

hfscomm1: about 3 years ago

columbiacounty
1 minute ago
ignore this person
report abuse
...but why the obsession with aboutready? what does she have to do with my criticism of you?

That's actually an interesting question. So ph41 attacks aboutready. What does that have to do with you? Why do you come to aboutready's defense? Shouldn't aboutready defend herself?

Please explain why ph41 can't discuss aboutready but you can?

hfscomm1: about 3 years ago

columbiacounty, what is your obsession of flat screen tvs coming out of people's butts?

columbiacounty: about 3 years ago

but what does one have to do with the other? thats the part that you're missing. i criticized your misuse of another poster's name; if you have an issue with that, great. but why the obsession with aboutready? what does she have to do with my criticism of you?

ph41: about 3 years ago

cc - and now, to quote you, "Stop, Stop - too ugly"

ph41: about 3 years ago

cc: Yes I am a very nice person. Many people on SE would think from your many nasty posted comments that you are the pot calling the kettle black.

I was simply responding to your comment about my misspelling of Julia's name - simple typo that you seized on to make a nasty comment, vs. really wrong spelling of the printmakers' names

hfscomm1: about 3 years ago

this is amusing. columbiacounty says ph41 isn't a nice person. If a nasty person says someone else isn't a nice person, does that mean she really is a nice person?

columbiacounty: about 3 years ago

penthouse lady---you are many things, but nice person is certainly not one of them. for some reason, you too are obsessed with about ready. let it go and perhaps you want to be another friend for the nutjob---hfsuseless.

hfscomm1: about 3 years ago

You also didn't correct aboutready when she used her Yale education to find a way to use the "word" irregardless.

dwell: about 3 years ago

"dwell -- because of the J-51 ruling, the LL likely illegally made Julia's apt market-rate and it should have been kept RS if the Stuy Town ruling is applied elsewhere. Hence, maybe she does have the right to renew on the same terms & conditions, modulo the RS price, but who knows?"

I would say that Julian cannot be considered a RST at this time & therefore, she cannot now benefit from the protections of the RSL. However, depending on how the case resolves, she may be RS in the future. If so, then perhaps the new rent in the current renewal lease may be reduced via a rent overcharge complaint.