Skipping last month's rent when they have your security

maryoga7: about 21 months ago

What if your landlord has already broken the lease? My problem is during this 1 year lease period, during which I have paid my rent on time every month, there have been several unresolved issues. First, the lock on my mailbox has been completely broken, meaning, it does not lock at all, the entire year. They were even given a violation by the city and it has not been fixed, leaving my mail (checks, personal items, etc) vulnerable. Part of the lease agreement is that they will maintain my mailbox. Also, the boiler was broken for the entire winter. It would go on and off. We had many days with absolutely no heat, where i was wearing full outdoor gear and almost crying sitting on my couch. Many calls to landlord resulted in "yeah yeah we are fixing it" and then it would eventually come back on and then break again the next week. Obviously we needed a new boiler. Calls to the landlord resulted in "yeah yeah call the super."....We got a new boiler just in time for Spring. This violation is on record at the NYHA. Also, I have researched this management company online on yelp, etc, and there are over 15 reports of this companies negligence and specifically not returning security deposits. Several people have cited that they will charge $125 per nail hole, and similar absurdities. I think that technically speaking, this company has already broken the lease, and that there is enough anecdotal evidence that they historically do not honor security deposits. Also, I have not damaged this apt.

quetee02: about 2 years ago

my husband and i are currently using our deposit for our last month as our landlord lied about not raising the rent then subsequently notified us 2 weeks prior to our lease ending that he was raising it by 25%/month knowing that we had just had our first child and had no intention of moving. our LL's track record of lying lets us know we couldn't trust him to get the full deposit back especially as we need that $ to move to quickly scramble to get into a new apartment. had he just told us the truth when we met with him face to face about renewing our lease 3 months prior this never would have happened. he brought this upon himself.

splaken: about 2 years ago

Jason, the 4 laws you referenced on the DHCR site are all issued within the jurisdiction of the DHCR and apply to apartments that are regulated in some fashion by the agency. Yes

jason10006: about 2 years ago

"Your article doesn't list any specific case of a tenant being taken to court and/or blacklisted. So still no real world story..."

You are a ruh-tard. From the second link:

"...A similar case is unrolling in New York, where Adam White was set to rent a two-bedroom rent-stabilized apartment in Park Slope, Brooklyn, two years ago with his girlfriend, Judy Schneier, and their son, Jonah. But a routine screening turned up a quarrel between Mr. White and his landlord six years earlier.

Mr. White said in court papers that the landlord repeatedly failed to fix a roof leak, so he withheld two months' rent. The landlord sued to evict him, but ultimately dropped the suit and agreed to let Mr. White keep part of his withheld rent.

After he was denied the Park Slope apartment, Mr. White called First American Registry, the screening company, to correct the record. But by then, the apartment was gone. Now he is suing First American Registry in Federal District Court in Manhattan, accusing it of supplying inaccurate information to a prospective landlord. Nevel DeHart, executive vice president of Registry SafeRent, a successor to First American, declined to comment on the suit.

Tenant advocates and lawyers say hundreds of people, if not thousands, have been banned from rental housing because they once appeared in housing court — hardly an automatic indication of wrongdoing.

"I think it's a huge problem," said Elizabeth Donoghue, a lawyer who represents tenants and is chairwoman of the Housing Court Committee of the New York City Bar Association. Often, she said, a landlord will "find out that the tenant was involved in a lawsuit, but they won't look further than that."

Indeed, said Andrew Heiberger, president of Citi Habitats, a Manhattan brokerage firm, "The No. 1 killer of deals is if you've had a prior problem with a landlord." He added, "It's the single worst blemish you can have on your credit..."

You deserve name calling if you can't fricking read.

twin: about 2 years ago

Name calling, now that's productive. Your article doesn't list any specific case of a tenant being taken to court and/or blacklisted. So still no real world story...

jason10006: about 2 years ago

...and my above post was about how by skipping the last month, people who live in NYC have found themselves on such a list. Or for far less. See a longer story on the same.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/08/garden/08TURF.html?scp=5&sq=tenant%20blacklist&st=cse

jason10006: about 2 years ago

"Your nytimes "story" is just a posting in the Q&A section."

No, dummy, you are talking about a story SOMEONE ELSE POSTED above. The one that jason10006 posted is here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/11/realestate/11posting.html?_r=1

twin: about 2 years ago

Jason1006 - Your nytimes "story" is just a posting in the Q&A section. In fact your helpful link is chock-full of comments from even more tenants being cheated out of their deposits. Even the expert in your "story" responded with "Still, it is common for renters to use the security deposit as the last month%u2019s rent...Since the landlord-tenant relationship is ending, 'there is very little that the landlord can do other than sue for any costs of repairing the vacated apartment that would have otherwise been covered by the security deposit'"

It%u2019s also illegal to not curb your dog. How many people have stepped in dog crap compared to how many people have seen someone receive a ticket for it?

jason10006: about 2 years ago

'no one has listed a personal case of being taken to court by a LL for their last month’s rent."

Liar. I posted a NYtimes story above. A bit more reliable than a random anonymous internet claim.

Mikev: about 2 years ago

in the process of breaking our lease at the permission of our landlord. Since the building changed hands and we do not trust them, meaning they told us if we gave them at least 4 weeks notice they would show the apartment and get it rented, at most they would ask us for one more month if it did not rent. Well we gave them 6 weeks notice and they did nothing, so we did not pay September rent and are letting them take the security deposit against it. Since they did not even attempt to show except to one tenant already in the building, I was not going to give them september to have them then ask for october. All was in writing via email at least so not concerned. Plus since i just purchased a place not really concerned about rent verification anymore.

twin: about 2 years ago

After 64 comments, no one has listed a personal case of being taken to court by a LL for their last month’s rent. On the other hand, several of you have told in detail about being cheated out of your deposits. The naysayers can quote contract law, HPD regulations and various websites, even warn of the horrors of small claims court judgments. But let’s see a real example of someone going to court and then having to move back home after being branded with a scarlet A of unrentablity.

If your landlord hasn’t been aboveboard throughout the length of your lease then don't pay the last month. In the real world a company/individual that won’t fix your broken toilet for 2 years probably won’t return the deposit without confrontation.

Come on people! It’s a part of the NY experience, just like the whole double parking for alternative side street cleaning. Sure, its illegal and sure most traffic agents look the other way but every time you do it you take a chance. And the 1% of the time you get a ticket you accept it and move on.

I had to threaten to take Flatbush Gardens to court before they finally returned my deposit (4 months after I vacated). Meanwhile, my neighbor and friend kept his last month’s rent and they never contacted him again. At least they were consistent, in that they were lackadaisical to the very end.

At the end of the day, take any anonymous online advice with a grain of salt. If you’re the type of person who will worry about a possible lawsuit from an unscrupulous LL then pay your rent and hope for the best. Otherwise move and be merry. Btw, I’ve never had to give references for any apartment I’ve rented. A credit check, paystubs and deposit were reference enough.

mutombonyc: about 2 years ago

jason10006,

I missed it but you are an erudite.

jason10006: about 2 years ago

No, the site mentions sources that are also about ALL apartments. And having been through this with real estate lawyers twice, I can assure you that the rule about not using deposit as last month's rent applies to MARKET rate apartments as well.

The website lists 1 rent-control law and three general rental laws.

"Sources:

New York City Rent Stabilization Code, Section 2525.4
Tenant Protection Regulations, Section 2505.4
New York City Rent and Eviction Regulations, Section 2205.5
New York State Rent and Eviction Regulations, Section 2105.5"

Here is the New York state law, and it applies to ALL rentals.

http://www.dhcr.state.ny.us/Rent/FactSheets/orafac9.pdf

It says

"A security deposit should not be used as a final month's rent. At the end of the lease, if the tenant honored
the terms and conditions of the lease and left the apartment in the same condition as it was when rented,
except for normal wear, the owner must return the full security deposit. If damage was done, the owner may
apply part or all of the security deposit to the cost of repair."

End of argument.

splaken: about 2 years ago

Jason you referenced http://www.housingnyc.com/html/resources/dhcr/dhcr9.html which says- New York State Division of Housing and Community Renewal, Office of Rent Administration. So if the lease isn't part of the NYS DHCR, then what you quoted doesn't apply to that lease. I wasn't making any other point one way or the other.

jason10006: about 2 years ago

"Jason, be careful about using the site you referenced for non rent regulated apartments. "

Mmmm, not that I am not frequently wrong, but I am not sure what you are referring to exactly? I am saying that across the US, including the majority of places where there are not any rent control laws at all, have access to the same few websites that are NOT credit checks - rather they are designed for landlords to do background checks on tenants. Google the term "tenant background check" or "tenant screening" and you will see that these are all wildly differnt data sources, but many of them include looking for things such as skipping out on last months' rent.

Which is often found by the LL file a small claims case.

Sometimes they are the standard background check websites. Sometimes its just a credit check with a different font. Some of them, per the NYT, however have propitiatory data, specific to landlord/tenant issues. So people with high incomes and perfect credit scores are declined because they complained about the previous LLs too much, whatever.

I can't remember it all but here is one of those stories:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/11/realestate/11posting.html

HDLC: about 2 years ago

When it's clearly imminent that the landlord is going to be in breach of contract, there is no reason why the tenant should wait for the breach before taking action to mitigate damages. If you're going to withhold last month's rent, just make sure you have sufficient evidence such that it would be reasonable to anticipate that the landlord was going to breach the lease.

splaken: about 2 years ago

Jason, be careful about using the site you referenced for non rent regulated apartments.

jason10006: about 2 years ago

You don't know a lot. The landlord CAN file a small claims court case. THAT is the ONLY way a LL would appear on a credit report. Otherwise HE IS NOT A CREDITOR!! Learn something. And yes, such a claim can negatively impact your credit report. Secondly and morenimportantly there are specific services that check your rental history. These are SEPERATE from credit reports, and many LLs use the renter background checks to weed out "troublemakers."' The NYT did a story on these saying how people with 850 credit scores were turned down based on such reports. Finally, all of my post college employers ran a credit check before hiring. It's not worth losing a job over.

newbuyer99: about 2 years ago

Just an opinion - if your landlord refuses to do a walk-through ahead of time, that's total BS, and if I were in your shoes, I would not pay that last month.

I've asked for a walk-through ahead of time a couple times, for the exact same reason as you, and each time the landlord accomodated, I paid rent, ultimately got my deposit back. No problems on either side. In fact, the last time I thought the landlord was too generous, since we damaged the floor a bit moving out, and I expected them to deduct $200-300 from the deposit, but they didn't.

Other times, when I heard bad things about the landlord, and/or had already had bad experiences myself, I used the deposit for the last month's rent. Never had a problem doing it that way, either.

Rob103: about 2 years ago

Contract law contemplates contracts being broken. Whoever above said that it wasn't morally right, OK, but the law anticipates contracts can be broken. It's not illegal in the sense of going to jail, or that a crime has been committed when you break a contract. In some special cases and in some areas it can be, but of the most part, no it's not.

Contract law teaches us that in most cases it is good for one party to break a contract if it is more advantageous for them to do so. That means, if the consequences are out weighed by the benefits.

I've asked my current land lord if they will do a walk through of my apartment before I give them the last months rent. Why? Because there are 96 apartments in this place and over the last year I have heard more than once not to expect the deposit back. Are those things true? No idea, but I am concerned because I figure it's harder for me to sue the land lord and win, than it is for the land lord to sue me. The land lord effectively refused, wanting rent first. It doesn't sit well with me.

Now, the other thing is will it affect my credit if I don't pay last months rent on time? I am not sure how it will since my landlord has not reported my payments for the last 11 months, which were all on time. You see the point? They do not record with a credit agency, good luck with sending a letter to one complaining. The only problem is if they sue me and a judgment gets entered, which will not happen (since there's no damage I am aware of, and I would pay anything from a court immediately).

I actually am having a hard time not paying rent because I think it's morally not the best choice, the legal side of me says it's business and not paying is the best legal choice. I am going with the later.

jason10006: about 2 years ago

I am a tenant. I don't own any property.

Again,

From the site:

"A security deposit should not be used as a final month's rent. At the end of the lease, if the tenant honored the terms and conditions of the lease and left the apartment in the same condition as it was when rented, except for normal wear, the owner must return the full security deposit. If damage was done, the owner may apply part or all of the security deposit to the cost of repair."

http://www.housingnyc.com/html/resources/dhcr/dhcr9.html

Stick_man: about 2 years ago

1000+ is should have read. haven't had 1000 rent since rent control queens many moons ago

Stick_man: about 2 years ago

I don't know why landlords think they're some type of authority figure on anything.

The lease is really a starting point for a negotiation in my view because the LL never really follows it to the letter anyway and a court will always rule for tenants anyway.

I've had a leaky faucet for like 3-4 year maybe in an old apt. I didn't bother with this since there were more pressing needs which was like pulling teeth to get anything fixed. Also no heat in the bathroom. And i don't mean the heat didn't work I mean there is nothing -- not even a steam pipe a violation of city ordinance.

I have not paid last months rent on the last 2 places i left. why bother? If they want to sue let them deal with it. I'd rather cross that bridge than deal with me trying to get back my money and be out the 1000 dollars while they take teir sweet --- time gettting back to me (if they get back to me).

jason10006: about 2 years ago

Either way, alanhart, NYC law specifically and unequivocally says a deposit CANNOT be used as last month's rent unless the landlord and tenant BOTH agree to this.

Besides your credit report, this could also show up on the lanloard background check services that exist specifcally to find these sorts of things out.

alanhart: about 2 years ago

mwang73151 sounds like a good landlord, and his post raises a good question. What is being secured in a "security deposit"?
a. physical condition
b. payments
c. both

It seems that various state laws assume either a. or b., but not both.

mwang73151: about 2 years ago

As a small owner, it is very clear that security deposit is a deposit to secure the property, i.e. the apartment is returned in a clean and desirable condition as he/she first moved in. I return security deposit 30 days after tenant moved out. I need the time to have a good review of the apt. It is unreasonable to ask to check the apartment before it is emptied, because damages can be caused during the move, such as the apt door hinge was damaged so it cannot close properly. Wall-to-wall carpeting or hardwood floor showed up damages under furniture. Built-ins got chipped in several small areas which made it unsightly or impossible to repair to a presentable state. Apt is left so dirty and full of rubbish which require several days to clean, and also the time cuts into my time period to re-rent. The cost of loss of time to re-rent never seems to occur to any renters. It is a nuisance to go through courts etc. but I definitely will file with credit checking agencies to warn future owners. Small Owner.

jason10006: about 2 years ago

This keeps coming up. The answer is always "no." Unless you NEVER want to rent again.

landlordnyc2: about 2 years ago

As a landlord you should not think a security deposit can be used as rent......

What if you break something in the apartment? You should be held liable for your actions... We've had people muck up the staircase having the movers bang the bed frame into every wall they see...

Also the tenants would put stickers all over the walls and leave nails from mounted pictures on the wall.

inonada: about 2 years ago

Agreed.

splaken: about 2 years ago

Alright, so basically you had a special one-off situation. And combine that with Honeycrisp which deals with the frequent special situations ... and we get back to my point that first AND last month PLUS security is not norm.

inonada: about 2 years ago

Splaken, the place is from an individual owner. The owner might have asked for first, last, and maybe 2 months deposit at first? Mind you, my credit was over 800, and my income and liquid assets were way up there. I figured there was some over-worrying (having last month so that deposit isn't used in it's place, worried about banging up of nice place, who knows). I don't care about shuffling the money around in time, but even 2 months deposit on top of it all was over the top even for me. So we agreed on a 1 month deposit as I wanted the owner to feel comfortable. The only concern for me was credit risk, so I checked that there was lots of equity in the place so there'd be something to sue if necessary: there was plenty and there still is.

The first benefit was the place was extremely well-priced, so I didn't want to rock the boat. Arguably, I could have negotiated the point and gotten the place regardless. The second benefit was general goodwill and brownie points to be cashed in later from being an ideal tenant. I have since cashed in various chips.

300_mercer: about 2 years ago

The only time I had the issue with security deposit is when I rented for 9 months from an individual. He deducted $1000 cleaning service expense which was certainly excessive. The apartment needed a bit of cleaning which any maid could have done for $100. However, the landlord opted for steam cleaning and other high end cleaning methods.

splaken: about 2 years ago

inonada, I guess I stand corrected. What kind of place was it? Did you agree it in exchange for another benefit?
Honeycrisp, also helpful, though those are all exceptions (I recognize that there may be a large % of exceptions).

Rent control and rent stabilization don't allow this - (actually I'm not sure if someone who is actually under real rent control has any security deposit) so a large portion of the market doesn't have this by law.

Honeycrisp: about 2 years ago

splaken - happens all the time, particularly in the case of questionable credit, students in need of guarantors, foreign nationals with no credit in the US, etc. etc. often you may find landlords requiring 6 months' upfront in a combination of rent and security; in the case of bankruptcy, up to one year of a combo.

inonada: about 2 years ago

Splaken, I have done first, last, and deposit.

columbiacounty: about 2 years ago

hmnnn....

splaken: about 2 years ago

I haven't heard of any instances where a landlord gets first AND LAST months' rent, plus security. That is a pretty big first check on a relative basis no matter what the monthly rent.
Curious if anyone knows otherwise.

jim_hones10: about 2 years ago

i doubt in this instance that the landlord asked for the last month of rent up front. in the last few years that has been uncommon. i assume from the op that the security deposit is just that.

JMGJAG: about 2 years ago

So, when you're moving in, and they want 1st month, last month, and 1 month's security,
the "last month" is NOT your last month's rent?

jim_hones10: about 2 years ago

downtown1234, it's called tenantalert if a landlord ever filed a claim against you, it'll show up.