PS 41 or Dalton

cccharley: about 10 months ago

I didn't read this entire thread since it's over a year old. Your child will learn more in public K than private. The publics start academics much earlier and push reading. What do you want? I assume the OP of this thread has long since made a decision about where to send her child to K. I am also assuming her child got into Dalton - not an easy fete. I'm sure either will be fine. The price and commute to me is way too much if you can walk to your local public and it is one of the top schools. Yes it's tougher to get into the top publics now as well. Ours had a weight list this year as well. Glad we are already in since we went since preK.

So Village Owner - which did you choose?

JButton: about 10 months ago

lots of kids didnt get through the lottery in ps41 this year. i know quite a few and it is getting tougher year after year.

Brooks2: about 10 months ago

Great input jdmcandthecity!

GA_12: about 10 months ago

I wonder, what did you choose.

falcogold1: about 2 years ago

Warren Buffet never went to Dalton and ended up selling dilly bars at Dairy Queen.
Clear gloss lipstick...frosted pink too ostentatious for a midwestener.

NYCMatt: about 2 years ago

"re being "just fine"; i want to try to set them up to be more than "just fine" in case they ultimately want to be more than "just fine"--however THEY end up defining all that"

"Just fine" = unlimited potential.

Not going to Dalton doesn't mean the kid will end up in frosted lipstick selling dilly bars at Dairy Queen.

jdmcandthecity: about 2 years ago

This thread has been very interesting.

I am a pediatric occupational therapist currently working at a public school in the Village with some amazingly dedicated and talented teachers. I have worked all over the city for more than 15 years with every socio-economic status with children in both public and private schools. Anything having to do with your child is really your decision and I always try to respect that. However, if you have a good public school, I would go there over commuting. I would save the demanding atmosphere (and money) for what I feel is a more appropriate age - high school.

A five year old may benefit from more than "playing with play-doh and coloring in the lines", but how much is debatable. I certainly wouldn't have them doing fractions, unless they had some genius predisposition for math. In fact, I believe in the US we sometimes are building "houses" before "foundations". We are so worried about providing everything, we sometimes forget the basics. Some kids just are not developmentally ready to write at the age of 5. Sure, a child should be challenged, but not stressed out. Play and games are really the work of a young child. This was an interesting article...
http://www.newsweek.com/2010/07/10/the-creativity-crisis.html

I would say the most important thing is to make time for your child, love them, discipline them, expose them to what you can, spend time with them. Make sure they have down time, unstructured and unscheduled time to play and have fun. Be involved in the school and/or communicate with the teachers... so much of my clients' success comes from the ability of their parents to work with me and carry over things at home. Public or private, pay attention to cues that the child may not be in the right setting, but also recognize that dealing with different environments and personalities is a real world learning experience in itself. Even public schools can be demanding. I had an elementary client at NEST+M who had loads of homework and was not always a happy camper. His Mom was not sure the environment was right for him. I was seeing him for some handwriting and sensory processing issues. He made great progress (in large part because of his mother) in the 2-3 years we worked together, but when I wrote a report to discontinue his services the school did not turn it in and decided he still needed therapy (!). It was a little too much.

As for myself, I went to public schools (rural and suburban) and had parents that really didn't push me beyond getting me to school and asking about my homework occasionally. They were there for me. I felt loved. They exposed me to different experiences, but they didn't overindulge me. I played outside A LOT and loved to read and make art. They also let me eat candy and watch television. Somehow I made it to Columbia University even without being drilled on SAT words over dinner and learning French in kindergarten. I went on to travel a lot and become an artist in my free time. I learned Spanish, how to sail and a number of other well-rounded interesting things. I think I ended up more than "just fine". I believe even if I had not received a full scholarship and only gone to a public university instead of an Ivy League school that I would still be just as intelligent.

Wbottom: about 2 years ago

my kids have always lived within a 10 minute walk of whatever schools they have attended--key

send your kids to the most challenging school academically that they can get into and can handle, at every stage

and i would beg borrow or steal before i let $$ get in the way of my kids being in the strongest academic mix

and there are generalizations that can be made about both public and private school communities--typically these tell more of the insecurities of those delivering than of anything real

re being "just fine"; i want to try to set them up to be more than "just fine" in case they ultimately want to be more than "just fine"--however THEY end up defining all that

Unicorn1951: about 2 years ago

There are great public middle schools and high schools in Manhattan and you kids can get an excellent education You have to visit them. My children experienced public and private and I preferred the fact that they were surrounded by all financial levels not just the top one percent.

NYCMatt: about 2 years ago

"Public middle schools are, in general, not very good."

If your kid is smart, he'll be just fine.

tm2mc: about 2 years ago

My wife and I had to make a similar decision - PS 41 or an uptown private school. We went private. Not sure it was the better choice. My kids love their school which is very important. The commute is fine but it was strange in the beginning (takes us less than a 1/2 hour door to door). But I'm not sure the education is better. My kids only have 11 kids per class. It feels more like a country club enviroment. Also, money is an issue and $70K per year (net) is a killer. The issue with PS 41, in my opinion, is what do you do when you reach 6th grade? Will Dalton hold the spot? Transfering to other private schools has become very competitive. Public middle schools are, in general, not very good.

NYCMatt: about 2 years ago

"and 10023 is right--if you go public, you'd better be very proactive on every front, including supplementing their academic experience, and prepping to test to apply out wheteher to private or public, and eventually, possibly, to hunter or specialized--"

Why?

Wbottom: about 2 years ago

and 10023 is right--if you go public, you'd better be very proactive on every front, including supplementing their academic experience, and prepping to test to apply out wheteher to private or public, and eventually, possibly, to hunter or specialized--

Wbottom: about 2 years ago

i had a kid at private and at public--went to both myself in nyc--if you can affrod dalton, do it---if the cost is not even meaningful, double do it

drdrd: about 2 years ago

My thought from the beginning, & one I hear echoing through many of the posts, is don't underestimate the parental involvement necessary in being sure your child is getting a good education. I always say that the school is only as good as the student & I'll add that the student is only as good as the parent who is sure the work is being done.

West81st: about 2 years ago

villageowner - I'm glad your D is OK. Compared to her health, everything else is noise. You have great options, and there's no wrong decision. You seem to have the parenting energy to deal with the inevitable hassles of the public school system. Dalton is a turnkey solution, which is wonderful for many families and overkill (though by no means a bad choice) for others. I agree that it's important to know your kid. It might be even more important to know yourself.

300_mercer: about 2 years ago

Villageowner, Hope your daughter is fine now. I do not have children but I would think spending more time with the children is very important - assume commuting to Dalton will cut into that time. Why not Grace school or some other private school close to you if you want your daughter to get private school education.

villageowner: about 2 years ago

Did this discussion really become about whether or not my kid really got into Dalton? So funny. Actually, my daughter had a serious accident in the early winter (everything is totally fine now) so the schools (all of them--Dalton, Ethical, Grace Church, Village Community) very, very generously gave us extra time to figure things out. I was so focused on the medical stuff, in addition to my job and overseeing the apt. renovation that had already started, that I have been somewhat remiss in being on top of schools decision. I never thought I would regret buying in the village but I do have to admit it's a mixed bag.

nyc10023: about 2 years ago

Or his kid got into Dalton off the WL.

nyc10023: about 2 years ago

I believe that PS41 had a lottery for non-sib K entrants this year. Which would mean that it's possible that village found out after his kid got into Dalton.

nyc10023: about 2 years ago

Since I post on the golden trifecta (SE, UB, YB), I'll say the same things I would have said on UB & YB. BTW, did your kid take OLSAT? You may be facing another hard decision in a month.

My kids are in or going to a "good" public, one has learned to read (hurray!) & now +/-/X to my satisfaction. Partner & I spent many good formative years in privates. I'm a tiger-parent wannabe, so I try to keep apprised of what's going on at the G&T/citywide publics in terms of curriculum. I also buy huge amounts of supplemental material. Any class my kids want, they get. I try to get them out for 2 sporty things/week.

My gut reaction to your posting is to send to Dalton if and only if 40k (+5%minim/year over 13) per kid is an amount you can comfortably part with. It's not money that you might need later on for retirement or college. Also, allocate some money to outsourcing some pickups and dropoffs. Don't try to save $ over cabs or drivers.

My issues with private:
1) Copious amount of wealth (tempered, some say by better racial+economic diversity than top geneds) but much depends on culture of school. Being the poorest kid in a posh private made me ambitious. My partner was also the poorest kid, he didn't even notice it. Interestingly (in response to Rosina's theory about first years), I was private to public (so foundation laid) and partner was public to private (took a year to catch up).
2) If the private doesn't suit, harder (I hear) to get help transferring to another private.
3) The cost - hard to justify if there's a reasonable chance of kids getting in later on. If kids can't get into same caliber school in higher grades, then would they have thrived in that school to start (impossible to answer). I know, cost doesn't matter to you.

My issues with public:
1) Large(r) classes, poorer facilities, less-seamless afterschool activities.
2) All the usual teacher quality+tenure gripes - but up close and personal, I'd say that 90% of the teachers in our public are fine. I'm still waiting for my kids to connect with that one magic teacher who will be life-changing for them. Arguably harder in a larger class to make that connection.
3) Curriculum - so far, I'm okay with the reading & math (I supplement heavily in math). Social studies curriculum sucks (but I'm of the opinion that the U.S. curriculum is a failure). No science curriculum (we are both sci. majors, and it's okay IMO not to have science in school in lower grades as long as they read about it at home & take classes outside).
4) Bottom line - we have the time, energy & money to supplement many of the perceived failings at home. And we will revisit privates later to save $.

Send to Dalton, IMO, unless you are hard-core public for personal reasons if $ is truly not an issue.
If you send to Dalton, you'll make someone on the PS41 WL happy.
If you send to PS41, you'll make someone on the Dalton WL happy. Be prepared for occasional feelings of guilt when you are dissatisfied with PS41 and wish you had sent to Dalton. The reverse is rarely true, because it is much easier to go one way than the other.

Matt: Sorry, they don't color & play all day at "middle-class" zoned publics in NYC.

rosina: about 2 years ago

I"m not sure if i belong in this argument but i will give you my earnest advice which comes from raising two sons who on the surface appear fairly normal and with no significant scars or noticable tics. They in turn have an array of children in Manhattan at Catholic schools, international preschools, and Dalton. From my own experience with education, I feel that the first 3 years in school are critical. Get the best you can afford, i.e. Dalton, and then you can go public if you prefer as the groundwork/basics will be set for life. In actuality, we have a granddaughter at Dalton and i am amazed at the depth of the program. That being said, i was also amazed at the tuition but if the cost is not an issue, then chin need not drop.

front_porch: about 2 years ago

Third -hand, based on watching friends' and clients' kids, I'd say Dalton, partly because it seems 41 functions as a de facto private. B)ut this is not an SE question, it's an Urban Baby question.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

JuiceMan: about 2 years ago

You got it falco, but got to send the kids to 2's and 3's first at $25k a year to get'em good and ready. I'm thinking by K, the kid won't need school because everything he needs to know will be on the iPad.

falcogold1: about 2 years ago

JuiceMan!
Get that babyjuice ready. BabyJuice enters preK in, I'd say, 3.5 years.
I'm guessing that make the tuition in first grade $40,000.
That a lot of Juice to squeeze.
I smell private achool. Food and shelter are grossly over rated.
I think your right. The cut off date for admissions is long past(just checked).
Could be buyers remorse or nervous parent anxiety.
Here we go...send your tyke to Dalton and when you decide that it's not for you yank'em out and send'em to public. Quality and individualized attention rules the day in this town so be happy with your choice.
As every graduate of public school will tell you, "it worked for me"!

jim_hones10: about 2 years ago

Ar, I'm guessing the un int school.

JuiceMan: about 2 years ago

Could the decision to go public been made already and VO is now looking for anonymous strangers to make him feel better about the decision? A bit of non-buyer remorse?

romary: about 2 years ago

clear about skatey eight posts ok VO is a man. you know what, nothing cast in conrete, you can board/blog from here to east overshoe and get that many opinions. you sound like thoughtful guy - you:your partner go with your gut. you can quantify:qualify till the cows come home and may still 2nd guess. the pboa from this process can render one incapable of making a decision. Fio - Figure It Out.

falcogold1: about 2 years ago

jojo10,
had the same thoughts.
Kinda late in the game to ponder considering the endless hassle of the process.
Completely crazy group to ask such a question.
"Hey RE Junkies and assorted nut cakes, what do think of an expensive exclusive private education as compared to a reasonably good public school?"

I smell a lack of sincerity.
Flmazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzo (just for old time w67)

jojo10: about 2 years ago

VO, as someone who very recently went through the nightmare that is the private school admissions process, I have a question: if you have the choice of sending your kid to Dalton, haven't you already accepted and put down your deposit? Thus you risk losing not only your deposit but the full $38K (or thereabouts) given that some schools will apparently try to go after you for the full year's tuition. I can imagine someone asking this question about Dalton vs. a G&T program, since one doesn't find out about G&T programs until after one has to accept or decline a private school admit, but this seems like an unusual question for someone that presumably knew about the PS41 option all along and could have made this decision risk free back in Feb. I am just curious so regardless, good luck with your decision.

needsadvice: about 2 years ago

Oh, I should let you in on the dirty little secret; a lot of very smart kids in private high school NEED tutors just to pass. This means the teachers aren't teaching effectively. Didn't happen to my kids, but for a lot of classmates, it was true. If the teachers aren't available for extra help, then what are you paying them for? Ask what percentage of students need tutoring. If it's over 5%, run.

needsadvice: about 2 years ago

@village; just saying we're trying to help.

If we are going full into the public versus private experiences, I'll continue.

I sent my daughter to a private Pre-K for big bucks. It was actually worth every penny. They introduced her to fractions, reading, letters, handwriting basics, class discipline (sitting still, being quiet, etc) and they taught her to sew. She's almost an adult and she still sews for a hobby. But the pressure was tremendous. At a school assembly, they had pre-k through third grade in the gym, and you could have heard a pin drop n there. That's not natural, IMO. She was having nightmares about getting to school on time and she was starting to be panicky. That's why I took her out.

Son in ordinary Pre-K, mostly coloring and writing his name. Nothing out of that.

Both private from grades 6-12; worth every penny. In high school especially. They chose from wonderful classes, including psychology, economics, Shakespeare, digital arts, astronomy, amazingly difficult AP courses. Spend the bucks here, no question.

Again, the emphasis should be on what programs they offer. Go through the course descriptions with a fine-toothed comb. Figure out how much pressure your kid can actually take. No sense in freaking them out early, it'll just bite you in the butt when they try to do the homework every night. Trust me, you do NOT understand this year's version of math. And next year it will change again.

I wish I had paid more attention to the reading programs in elementary school, my son would have had an easier time of it. Go and ask a LOT of questions, have them walk you through a reading and math lesson plan. Don't just trust them, even if they are a fancy private school. There is no reason your kid should come out of kindergarten not knowing how to read, at least on a rudimentary level. After first grade, they should read fluently.

Good luck. It only gets harder from here.

falcogold1: about 2 years ago

I don't know much about PS41 but, if you applied your child to Dalton and your child was accepted then you already know that Dalton has a very unique teaching philosophy which I am would think differs dramatically from the public school. You should already have a notion as to your child's ability to function at Dalton, given it's long term academic intensity. If you are of the means and your child is of the ability then the commute will work itself out. Entry into Dalton is easiest at the beginning because they are filling a whole class. If it works out then your child graduates from Dalton with an excellent education fully prepared to handle the rigors of college. PS41 means several school changes in the future.
Interesting...
The cut off date for accepting admission is either right now or very very soon.
Hard to imagine at this late date, considering the angst of the process, that your not writing that check and collecting your prize. It's expensive but, is there anything else that you would consider a more heart felt or valuable investment.
By the way anyone who tell you there is nothing special about this education has no first hand knowledge of the school.

aboutready: about 2 years ago

honesy, nasty and illiterate is no way to go through life. my daughter goes to private school, and i must have been too politic if villageowner doesn't think i recommend it. i do, although i respect the choices of others and understand that it depends on the child, the family and the program.

JuiceMan: about 2 years ago

Try this question on Urban Baby, you will sure to be flamed! The streeteasy crowd are angels compared to that collection of snots.

One thing to ask yourself is the importance of private vs. public as your kid gets older. It is more difficult to get into private once you pass the early school years because of their admittance policies. For this reason, it is much easier to transfer to PS41 from Dalton than the other way around. For this reason alone I would tell you to send your kid to Dalton and if it goes well, great and if not, you could easily transfer to PS41. This approach will also give you time to consider a move closer to the school should you decide the commute is too much. No need to make that decision before you know if you and your kid like the school.

jim_hones10: about 2 years ago

Ar, so you don't spend on your kids schooling or housing. What exactly DO you and hubby spend on?

villageowner: about 2 years ago

Thanks, needsadvice, for sharing your experience. No thanks for being rude about it. And I'm a man, not a woman, so the snarky "Ms." is not necessary.

Thanks everyone for all the helpful advice. Very telling that no one recommends going private--seriously, that says something.

maly: about 2 years ago

REmom, not necessarily. My daughter is in kindergarten in one of the top 10 public primary schools in the city, she's one of 23. Her best friend is in a very good private school, 1 of 24. I think the main difference is how fancy the facilities are. My kid's school is super clean, has everything that counts, but nothing insanely top-of-the-line like the private school, which has an amazing gym, a cafeteria that would make Conde Nast proud, and so on. At the smae time, the public school has the advantage when it comes to partnerships with arts organizations. For very little money, my kid can learn to sing/dance with Broadway actors, draw/paint with professional artists, get writing workshops I couldn't get into, the list goes on. And I have the moral satisfaction to know that all the money I give supports all the kids, not just mine.

alanhart: about 2 years ago

George W. Bush said that phonics is an unproven experimental technique that's not worthy of funding. So your son learned to read better than your daughter did.

needsadvice: about 2 years ago

The most important thing is not really private or public; it's what programs they offer. In elementary school the programs need to center around strong reading and basic math. I have sent a son to private elementary and a daughter to public elementary. Here are my reading results;

Son-private- experimental reading program that equated the letter Q to a picture of a bubbling pot of water. Supposedly, the pot makes a "qua" noise when it bubbles. Major BS program that was dropped 2 years later. Result- heavy tutoring in fifth grade when it was found he couldn't actually read.

Daughter-public-basic phonics, with heavy emphasis on independently reading (and being tested on) a large volume of chapter books in grades 2-5. Result- excellent reading skills.

What you need to do, Ms. Condescending Village Owner (for someone seeking advice, you're not particularly nice), is go down to the schools and ask EXACTLY what do their programs entail? If they don't make perfect sense to you, then skip that school.