Finding Rentals Online vs. Hiring an Agent/Broker

jason10006: about 11 months ago

I would amend NBalzac as follows: renting coops is generally MUCH more a hassle than renting condos. I would divide that para into two. Most condos require a lot less paperwork and hassle than coops, and also don't have the 2-year maximum that coops do.

rb345: about 11 months ago

NBalzac:

I agree. Your posting was very thoughtful and contained a lot of useful
and helpful facts.

hoc84: about 11 months ago

NBalzac, thank you for you thoughtful response. I think many people will find your post useful.

Al_Assad: about 11 months ago

"they are hard to avoid and extremely annoying"

That's so true! And if you see one, you know there are others hiding in places you can't see. New York seems to have a particular problem with them; other places i've lived in weren't as infested. I mostly see them later in the day and at night, never in the morning. Are they lazy and just want to sleep late? And if you live above a restaurant, forget it - there's no way to avoid them.

Oh, sorry - you were talking about BROKERS. I thought you said roaches...

huntersburg: about 11 months ago

Anyone used the "Shop for a Broker" link up top?

jason10006: about 11 months ago

And Jim Jones admitting that the vast majority of brokers are no good only helps the argument AGAINST them for rentals. Unless you have an iron clad reference about a broker, don't bother. There are no Zagats or Citysearch ratings for random brokers, even if the work for the big agencies.

jason10006: about 11 months ago

"FOr rent by owner" on C-L is mostly legit. No-fee by broker are mostly B-S listings.

You should have a standard introductory email that says, politely, words to the effect that you are ONLY interested in the exact unit advertised, and if its not available, you won't come see the place. Even slime brokers get the memo.

rb345: about 11 months ago

I just rented two No Fee rentals on Craigslist, and have two more up now, with
possibly an additional two to follow. I strive to be completely accurate in my
ads, and answer all questions from prospects truthfully.

There are many other owners of building managing agents posting there who do the
same.

Brooks2: about 11 months ago

another website-- http://www.urbansherpany.com/Home

JohnMiller: about 11 months ago

Try the Glenwood buildings. They are very well-maintained with great lobbies and amenities.

somewhereelse: about 11 months ago

I've never paid a brokers fee. Wouldn't minded paying one for a great deal, but never had a broker find me anything I cared about. At the high end, I find the better rental buildings have their own offices, and it is very easy to find them.

On the low end, thinking like walkups, I find that the best deals come through the midsize concerns that own/manage 20 buildings, and have a lot of similar inventory, and generally maintain them. I have friends that worked with 2-3 of these on the UES, got pretty good deals, and didn't have to look crazy hard (they just followed their listing updates on the web site).

In the middle (older doorman elevator buildings, in my head), lots of no free complexes as well. Similar program to above, just with lesser apartments. I think of all the Regency buildings on the lower upper east side.

The names escape me, but generally you find 20 of the same small sign walking around the UES.

NBalzac: about 11 months ago

Clearly, the broker can help compress your timeframe for looking, and that alone can be worth it. So, I’m starting from the premise that you have either the lead time or the free time to look at a lot of places. I’m also assuming that you’ve already used the internet to get some rough idea of the price you’re willing to pay for what you need.

That being said, the better you know the neighborhood, the more mainstream your needs are, and the clearer you are on your trade-offs (e.g., price vs size vs location vs layout etc), the less you need a broker.

Here's my take on some of the factors:

- Apartments that are priced exactly correct with the market will get rented pretty easily.
- Apartments where the landlord wants a bit more than the prevailing market price will need to be shown a lot, over and over. They're looking for that elusive tenant who slightly overvalues the unit's positive(s) and is indifferent to its negative(s).
- Straight rentals (as opposed to rented co-ops and condos) are generally more expensive for what you get. Condos and co-ops are a bit cheaper, to overcome the paperwork burden and the high application fees. As such, straight rentals need a lot of traffic to get filled. These are the apartments that'll get widely advertised online to drum up traffic.
- In my experience, it takes a lot of looking to get what you want in the straight rentals market and not overpay. If you're looking at mid- or high-rises, turnover is much higher in the less-desirable "lines" (floor plans) in a building. So at any given time, the inventory of less-desirable floor plans available is high, with people tending to renew leases over and over in the better ones. As a result, you wind up with more of the mediocre units available at any given time, and you can feel like you're beating your head against the wall over and over, building after building, trying to encounter a unit that doesn't make you go "meh."
- Where a broker comes in with the straight rentals is that they may (buy only MAY) have a set of buildings they watch closely where they will figure out more quickly that a desirable unit is on the market. In that sense, they can save you a lot of time, compared to chasing out to see everything that's vacant on your own.
- In renting condos or co-ops, a broker can add some value in helping you keep from getting snagged on any tricky requirements or paperwork. In my experience, the obstacle here is the management company that runs the building and blesses the paperwork on behalf of the building's board. They have zero incentive to deal with you directly, and would just as soon keep you more at arm's length via a broker. Makes life easier for the mgt co if they turn you down, too (because you haven't met them directly).
- Now, there are some straight rental mgt cos (someone mentioned Pan Am above, I think) that only work through brokers. I’ve never rented from one of those, so I don’t know if they’re desirable and/or accurately priced, vs. buildings that will rent to you directly. It stands to reason that a building needs a smaller in-house staff if it outsources showings mostly to brokers. In theory, that could make prices a tiny bit lower, but that’s just a guess.
- The townhouse/walkup and small-landlord markets are their own little ecosystem, it seems, making it tougher to generalize. In these buildings, it seems that the super plays a bigger role, and the landlord can decide how available they want to make him/her for showings. Policies seem to run the gamut of a super showing the unit to anyone who buzzes him, to having set times daily where the unit is left unlocked and you can just come look, to where you have to aggressively chase the super down to get him to show you the unit. In the latter case, turnover of apartments slows down significantly. And, the market has less information available about exactly what’s going on in those buildings (compared to a staffed rental office where everybody can call anytime to get updates). I think there are brokers who carve out these sorts of buildings as their niche, and your ability to use shoe-leather to overcome their info advantage is probably a lot slimmer.
- The most talented brokers who handle both sales and rentals may vary a lot as to how helpful they are, even from week to week. Some just love doing deals, and on a slow week will happily work on rentals. Others will save their energy to do everything they can think of to move a sales transaction, which is rarer but a lot more lucrative. They might only grudgingly handle the rental of past sales client’s condo as a favor. So, it’s hard to know whether a given broker is motivated to work hard to meet your needs, especially since they know they’ll be competing with the internet at the same time.

Hope this helps.

huntersburg: about 11 months ago

If those old time landlords could just learn from Jim how to repeatedly hit the shift key and press 1 at the same time.

Gregsinitiative: about 11 months ago

Part of the issue is that the old school landlords are not of the generation, headset or technical proficiency and lack the basic know-how of how to even work a camera, or write a good description with all the buzz words for their property, let alone, where to post it online. This (and the next) generation of tech savvy on-liners like ourselves will determine the true "value" of agents and brokers. But at the end of the day it comes down to whether or not you want to invest the time in sifting and sorting through a lot of the trash that is out there to find a decent apartment. If you are flush with cash, respect the service and value of a TRUE professional, or simply have better things to do with your time; hire at least one good agent and hedge your bets by working with 1-2 agents from different firms. Realize that in the end, after all of the tf conerstone, rockrose and Avalon, no fee cookie cutter conglomerates, often the smaller more unique properties are owned by old school landlords that work often exclusively with brokers and you will have to pay a fee.

rb345: about 11 months ago

In today's economy landlords dont need to use monkeys to open doors
when they can hire recent college or law school graduates for less.

columbiacounty: about 11 months ago

no doubt you've spotted another major conspiracy. way to go boner.

jim_hones10: about 11 months ago

Most and many.......explain in your best english, cunty, the huge discrepancy. Use websters as needed.

huntersburg: about 11 months ago

>excellent way to pick up some tax free dollars as well as cheat non operating partners.

Columbiacounty, you seem to know a lot about fraud and unethical behavior.

huntersburg: about 11 months ago

this is a fruitful discussion. Its devolved into the difference between most and many. Congrats you two.

columbiacounty: about 11 months ago

so....in the deluded world of jimboner. most and many mean the same thing.

is english a second language for you?

jim_hones10: about 11 months ago

Cunty:. "and why would an unscrupulous unit owner not want to get undeclared income....."

Most and many:. Semantics used by retards trying to win an arguement.

columbiacounty: about 11 months ago

have you figured out the difference between most and many?

columbiacounty: about 11 months ago

where is the part about most unit owners are unscrupulous?

columbiacounty: about 11 months ago

where is the part about the huge conspiracy?

jim_hones10: about 11 months ago

I think you are so fucking dumb you actually forgot what you wrote about an hour ago:

"remember that many times a portion of the brokers fee gets kicked back under the table....."

Did you write that, or your imaginary friend?

columbiacounty: about 11 months ago

i made no claims of a conspiracy much less a huge one.

you distort and lie here and supposedly for a living.

good luck.

jim_hones10: about 11 months ago

When did i say unit owners were unscrupulous? YOU are claiming a huge conspiracy.

Ive bought many a liquid lunch, paid for nights out, ball games, holiday gifts, etc. This is simply good business practice. I havent ever bribed anyone to get them to give me a listing.

So, down to the semantics. You say many, not most. What percentage would you say? You seem to know alot about tbis.

columbiacounty: about 11 months ago

the only one suggesting that most owners are unscrupulous is you.

kickbacks by the very nature are not standard....only stupid brokers say that anything is standard

how can i explain why you claim to have never heard of this?

perhaps you should consider the difference between the word many and the word most.

jim_hones10: about 11 months ago

Does this also happen on the sales side?

jim_hones10: about 11 months ago

So most unit owners are unscrupulous?

What do you suppose is the standard kickback?

How come i have never seen this referenced anywhere else? Never in the news, the paper, anywhere? How long and with how many involved parties in this?

In the case of open listing accounts, do multiple brokerage firms pay off certain parties for the rights to show their properties?

jim_hones10: about 11 months ago

The ironic thing is that there is a high probability that the op will end up paying a fee to a broker represented property anyway.

columbiacounty: about 11 months ago

hmmn. lets see, why would an owner of a single unit choose to use a broker rather than do it themselves?

and why would an unscrupulous owner not want to get undeclared income, i.e. kickback on the fee?

if you really are anything close to what you claim you are, you know perfectly well what goes on.

jim_hones10: about 11 months ago

And how does it account for the 9 out of 10 condo or coop owners who chose to use a broker? Is money changing hands in those cases too?

jim_hones10: about 11 months ago

Cunty, how would you know this?

columbiacounty: about 11 months ago

the only monkey here is you.

jim_hones10: about 11 months ago

So you'd rather pay a higher rent rate, which will mean a higher renewal rate, then pay a fee one time for a better priced apartment? Who's a monkey in that case?

columbiacounty: about 11 months ago

they are and they will.

remember that many times the a portion of the fee to be broker gets kicked back under the table to either the owner or someone in the management company. excellent way to pick up some tax free dollars as well as cheat non operating partners.

hoc84: about 11 months ago

Thanks all for your responses. I have decided not to get a broker.

It seems that online search is getting easier, and these middlemen are getting less and less relevant. I just don't understand why don't more owners and management companies list online with no fees. They can clearly ask for a higher rent if no fees are involved. You can literally hire a monkey to schedule an appointment and open the apartment door for a showing.

jim_hones10: about 11 months ago

Dumb and dummerer

huntersburg: about 11 months ago

No, I have no idea what you wrote.