Need Your Suggestions and Perspectives

huntersburg: about 10 months ago

>No one on this board is a lawyer.

No one?

>But didn't you say your husband was?

She said her husband is a crappy lawyer:
"My husband had threatened to go to NYS Supreme Court and asked for their lawyer's name (husband is a lawyer), but unfortunately, my husband did not follow up. I do not expect husband to initiate since he does not hassles. (haha, that is why he is only working very selectively now)."

lovetocook: about 10 months ago

No one on this board is a lawyer. But didn't you say your husband was? If so, he's in the best position to say whether you have an executed contract or not. He's also in the best position to suggest what to do to get your money back whether part, all or none.

huntersburg: about 10 months ago

Brilliant

wanderer: about 10 months ago

Don't tell them your plan. Make them think you are settling with the 1 month fee. Only when you have your 50% back then go to small claims.

wanderer: about 10 months ago

Take the 1 month back and agree to the 1 month fee. Then go to small claims and argue undue influence. You will win. make you you have everything documented.

huntersburg: about 10 months ago

The two of you are remarkably naive.

inonada: about 10 months ago

You can look up ACRIS to verify the owner of the property.

rlr689: about 10 months ago

Hmm, interesting. A google search indicates the landlord's address provided on the lease is a tax-exempt congregation in Brooklyn, NY.

rlr689: about 10 months ago

Sunday,

I wondered about using the the ethnic descriptions, just as I wonder about this:

"I see what used to be predominantly "Black" neighborhoods in Brooklyn turning over as other groups buy them out, renovate (at times cheaply) and then charge fairly high rental rates for border neighborhoods."

I was struck by social phenomena with different ethnic groups staking out various parts of NYC. Also, I think the "Caucasian" person might have been part of the ploy to present an area as safer than it actually was. Let's face it. Race does matter, even in this day and age, in terms of perceptions of safety and danger in a neighborhood.

rlr689: about 10 months ago

Eceryone, Don't let crescent's comment make you think this was a futile exercise or a therapy session. I want to thank all of you with your sincere attempts to assist with this matter and to read through so many details. Hugs to you all across cyberspace.

rlr689: about 10 months ago

I did email agent #2 immediately upon departing the rental office (might have been rented for short term use but I am thinking that is a way to trace agent #2, at least) letting him know that the lease could not be signed because of the missing parking bay clause. The date and time on the email will show that it was shortly after money was paid but lease was not returned with all signatures.

cresent, I beg to differ. The remarks made have reinforced certain ideas of my own or have given me things to think about. I believe the address on the lease for the LL is legitimate. So, my formal complaint(s) will be to that address. Also, another option is to go back to the Bushwick unit and find out from current tenants who the LL is and if that is the same person on the lease I have. More than anything else, this thread has allowed me to focus on what the issues were and to work on refining my version of what happened to the court and other authorities.

Sunday: about 10 months ago

Just call the local TV station already (Howard Thompson's "Help Me Howard", Arnold Diaz's "Hall of Shame"), you know you want to!

Don't forget to include the following though, because I like to know why that info is relevant:
>>>"Agent #2 is a Hasidic Jew and it sounds like all the main players are. Agent #1 who first showed us the apt. was a Caucasian..."

crescent22: about 10 months ago

I am getting tired of this. This is more therapy session for the OP than strategy session.

If she doesnt want to deal with her adversaries AND cannot find them, what hope did she ever have. What did she plan to achieve coming here? Suing them is pretty self explanatory- we dont help there much. Everyone on this board knows that complaining to the DA, REBNY, or DOB wont ger her any tangible result. It was all about creating leverage with the agents, which she is shying away from.

huntersburg: about 10 months ago

Emails are another story however.

huntersburg: about 10 months ago

Landlord's oral promise about parking will be hard to prove.

huntersburg: about 10 months ago

> Inonada, excuse my ignorance. How do you badger people who are so shrouded in mystery with only the lease address for the LL and cell phones for the other agents?

That's not the only reason inododo's suggestion is stupid. If they give you $1 or $7599, that check will be evidence of a settlement when you show up to court seeking more money.

crescent22: about 10 months ago

If you cant even find them now (they have no other listings), it is a scam and even the proper authorities will not be able to help you. Even if you sue them, how do you expect the "authorities" to serve them or find them if you can't?

Isle_of_Lucy: about 10 months ago

I'm sorry for your loss of your Mom, and I'm sorry you had to go through this. But now it's time to keep it simple and get it done.

Have your son's four friends paid 20% each toward the $7,600? If they have, you're only out $1,520, and you wiggled out of this scam relatively unscathed. People are scammed for a heckuva lot more, and it sounds like you're dealing with a lot now. Let it go.

If your son's four friends have *not* paid, and the $7,600 is all *your* money, I would still go to small claims court, and try to get back $5,000. Keep it simple, let them give you the max if there was indeed fraud, and take your lumps. In the grand scheme of things, the $2,600 deficit is still not that much.

Finally, I have to throw this question out there, because I don't know.....is it common in a rental to submit certified checks before looking over a lease (signed or not)? I mean, the LL could have verbally promised you five cars in the parking bay, he could have promised you a rose garden --- isn't it the norm to read the lease before submitting the certified checks? I could be wrong about the entire process, I don't know at what point it is customary to exchange funds. I know when purchasing, there is no money that changes hands until the signed contract has been executed.

rlr689: about 10 months ago

Also, Triple, I think there are indeed unscrupulous people in the rental market taking advantage of the very tight supply, especially for "well priced" units. I see what used to be predominantly "Black" neighborhoods in Brooklyn turning over as other groups buy them out, renovate (at times cheaply) and then charge fairly high rental rates for border neighborhoods.

rlr689: about 10 months ago

TRIPLE,

EXACTLY! This thing smelled of a rat from the beginning. I should have known better but I heard the rental market was brutal and that Bushwick was up and coming (I did not realize until later that this only applies to certain parts of Bushwick). But the tactics from the beginning were troubling. I was just anxious to get this thing going for S and friends because their other party of 5 guys had already signed (yes, actually signed) a lease 2 blocks away. Also, S and his group had just lost another apt. in the same area because they did not act the first day. So I had that as the context of what influenced my actions.

Inonada, excuse my ignorance. How do you badger people who are so shrouded in mystery with only the lease address for the LL and cell phones for the other agents? Would that not be considered harassment if I tried repeatedly to "badger" them. These people give me the creeps. I would rather deal with the proper authorities from this point on.

inonada: about 10 months ago

Here's an idea if you can pull it off: get part of it back through badgering, and then do small claims for the rest.

Triple_Zero: about 10 months ago

"Sunday, 4/1/12 - On first visit to a Bushwick Brooklyn apt. ... I brought check for $3200 as requested by Landlord (LL)'s agent #1 to put down deposit of one month rent. We were told that two other parties had submitted applications for the apt. And we needed to bring check in to show our serious interest and not have apt. rented out first to other interested parties.

2) Monday, 4/2/12 - I get call from LL's agent #2 that there was a problem and the $3200 rent was only good if my S and friends had moved in on 4/1/12, the same day we had seen the apt. ... rent would be $4000/ month for a later move in,"

This makes it look like they were planning some sort of scam from the outset. Asking you to sign for the apartment on the same day that you first see it isn't a surprise in a tight rental market, but imposing a 25% rent increase, totaling nearly $10,000 per year, because you didn't move in in under 24 hours, seems ridiculous.

Is this standard these days?

rlr689: about 10 months ago

Haha, huntersburg, now you are naive, "They SAID they WERE willing to take half the $7600," but it was no guarantee. In fact, based on previous hx, I would say they would have continued playing hardball and eventually would have taken the whole amount anyway. These are like bullies who are not satisfied until they get everything they can from people who back down.

I do have some time in the months to come and I hope to address this in a more equitable manner through whatever channels I have researched to be appropriate. We never took possession of the apt. and I gave them notice about the missing clause and unsigned lease by the tenants/ guarantor in a very timely manner (given the fact that they had also used very strong sales pressure tactics to push this matter through before all parties could be gotten together to even read and respond to lease terms. Whether I have a case will be determined by the powers that be. But certainly I will not just drop this matter. That is not what I have chosen to do.

huntersburg: about 10 months ago

With all due respect take your lumps and move on. They are willing to return half. Is the difference worth youraggravation, when youy are simultaneously focused on your mother's death. That's how you got into this mess you had too much going on.

Small Claims is also a laughable idea given the difference between what they are offering and the maximum allowable claim. It may be 6 months before your case would even be called and you dont get to pick the date. If you try nonsense with multiple claims, expect multiple appearances while it gets fixed back to one case. But suing the Hasidim in Brooklyn, ... even the Kings Cty DA thinks twice.

rlr689: about 10 months ago

So there is the other opinion that only one signature by someone who was misrepresented as a tenant is enough to make this an ironclad lease? NYCMatt, that is why I put quotes around the word "adult" for myself, recognizing the tenants as adults, though supposedly with less life experience so I handled some of these details. It turned out none of us were "adults" when it came to dealing with the slippery slope of NYC rental market. Though I have to say I learned a lot about the darker side of human nature in all this (not just by reading books, watching movies, but in interacting with seedy characters in real life).

NYCMatt: about 10 months ago

RLR, you signed the lease. Period. It doesn't matter whether you signed it as a tenant, a guarantor, or as an "adult" parent (which, incidentally, your kid is also a legal adult).

rlr689: about 10 months ago

rb,

The point here is whether we can even consider the lease as having been fully and correctly signed and thus fully executed? Remember I was the only one who signed and I really had no official capacity in the lease (I was not intended to be a tenant) unless you consider the "Co-signer" signature as a fully executed lease, even though all the other major players/ tenants named (the guarantor also incorrectly named as tenant) had not signed.

My role was as the "adult" parent who made the contacts and negotiated terms for the lease. Just as if I were the personal broker for my S and friends.

rb345: about 10 months ago

rlr:

1. I feel for you - but you might have fouled up
2. once a tenant signs a lease he forfeits 1st months rent and security if he doesnt follow thru
3. some of what you describe smacks of fraud
4. but NY sets a high threshold to assertion of a fraud claim
5. I havent read your whose post but if you feel aggrieved sue in Small Claims Court
6. you will have to do so in Brooklyn because Suffolk Small Claims Court doesnt have jurisdiction
over a defendant who lives or works in Brooklyn

rlr689: about 10 months ago

crescent,

One of the fathers wanted to go to small claims court for the entire amount but nixed the idea when hubby told him the $7600 was over the small claims ct amount. He also happens to be the only one of other tenants' parent not working. The other 3 parents are extremely busy and one is out of state.

They have been kind to give us time to handle this without any complaints (except perhaps for the parent who is at home). I feel I need to turn my attention to this matter now that my pressing family/ personal issues are no more. I just need to strategize and I am using the expertise here to form a plan of action.

The good news is that after two more lease attempts, S is finally settled happily in a rental that is working out for him and his friends.

huntersburg: about 10 months ago

> Perhaps, but does that come into play before the lease is executed?

You have concluded that the lease isn't executed. I don't know how you reach that conclusion. I haven't reached any conclusion on that matter, but I did take note of the fact that money changed hands, keys were delivered, and signatures (possibly but not definitively incomplete) appear on both sides of the agreement.

There is no such thing as a "minority party" and the fact that a signatory or party to the lease is not a tenant is not of primary relevance.

crescent22: about 10 months ago

That doesn't matter. It didn't matter to them when they doubled the penalty unilaterally. Offer them the half month settlement on threat and evidence of intent to sue and demand they abide by the original verbal agreement.

Your choice whether you sue them once for $5000 or try to herd cats to sue 5 separate times. I'd be surprised if the other tenants just sat there out $1520 without doing anything themselves for 4 months.

rlr689: about 10 months ago

Below the line for the guarantor's signature was typed in "Guarantor." So again another inconsistency. The guarantor was named a tenant in the beginning of the lease but then was expected to sign in the position of a guarantor.

rlr689: about 10 months ago

And, Ionada,

You are right. That lease was inconsistent in regards to where I stood. The lease named me as a tenant, as well as spelling out the names of all 5 tenants and the guarantor's name (also as tenant, now that I think of it). However, I was asked to pen in a line for my signature and to write below the line, Co-signer since my name was originally nowhere in the final page of the lease where there were lines for signature for the 5 tenants and the guarantor (their names all typed out in the final page).

rlr689: about 10 months ago

crescent,
We already offered to settle for 1/2 month but that was when agent #3 upped the "penalty" to a full month.

Yes, there is proof that the other 4 tenants (besides my son) paid me $1520 each either in personal check or certified check.

Ionada, your logical thinking is something I follow completely, but I do not know the intricacies of contract law for rental leases. So, I or husband will have to follow up on this research.

crescent22: about 10 months ago

Your case hinges on whether the lease documentation states the names of each tenant in the text (I assume it does) because that establishes inonada's point that there is no executed contract if each person's required signature was not given. There is no contract with you as signatory if you were not the only one in the lease text.

You need to go back to them and threaten to do what ab11218 says and offer a settlement on the 1/2 month terms; show that you have done the paperwork and are on the verge of filing if they do not pay up right now. THen follow through if they don't.

If you go the court route...
If you try to file 5 separate cases for $1520, doesn't each claimant have to prove they paid $1520 to either you or the agent or the landlord? Did all five even actually pay $1520 to someone back in April?

Don't ever negotiate with multiple people again.

inonada: about 10 months ago

"Generally leases are written to have joint and several responsibility."

Perhaps, but does that come into play before the lease is executed? Even if it says that the lease is considered executed if LL and a subset of tenants have signed and delivered (I've never seen that on a standard lease form), the OP did not sign as a tenant.

rlr689: about 10 months ago

Brooks2,

I think that is a good idea! However, I think I will do that first with mom's "hospital-induced" early demise. Shame, shame, shame Downtown Hospital and Beth Israel Hospital.

Seriously, I do think this rental lease issue is a larger problem with all the crooked dealings by brokers and LLs, especially in this overheated rental market.

Brooks2: about 10 months ago

5) call Arnold Diaz-- Shame shame shame

rlr689: about 10 months ago

Ottawa,

1) The agreement was for $3800/ month rent, with one month rent and one month security deposit ($7600) to be paid to LL at time lease and keys were picked up. I did not understand how the LL could be so sloppy and not insist on all signatures for the lease before keys would be turned over. But apparently, this outfit only cares about getting the money first. And, "possession is 90% of the law"?

2) The contract had only the LL's signature and mine as co-signer. There were still empty spaces for FIVE tenants and ONE guarantor to sign the last page of the lease when I left the agent's office with the keys (after leaving behind the 2 certified checks for total of $7600 or $3800 each with each labeled clearly, "First month rent" and "One Month Security."

3) I know. All of you are helping me in this regard. I started writing last night while I was very tired and could not think in an altogether clear or organized manner and after a good sobbing over mom's death, so yes, I have to work on refining this a lot.

rlr689: about 10 months ago

Huntersburg,

Your point about the defendant just requesting small claims ct to consolidate the multiple claims is a good one. I have been disinclined to go this route. THough hubby wants other families to take responsibility for foing after their portion of withheld $.

1) I believe there was fraud in representing me as a tenant on the lease (there was no discussion or agreement on that).

2) I was asked to sign as a co-signer but my then current credit history, income were not checked for purpose of my being any way responsible for the lease (though I had given some older account info initially).

3) I do want to report to NYS DA Office and Consumer Protection Agency on the high pressure rental tactics, misrepresentation (of myself as a tenant and the missing bay parking clause on the lease).

4) I also want to file a complaint to DOB that at the time the lease was drawn there were missing documents LL needed to file with DOB. I am not sure it matters that the LL is in full compliance now, if that is the case?