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if you don't like kids and have no friends. This building id PERFECT for you!!!!!
kids are not welcome. Neither are friends!!! Condo board president says no more than 3 guests allowed!!!! unbelievable!
yea and a want to be terminator that's always in the gym screaming at everyone, trying to intimidate so he can have room for his aerobics
I'll second the dictator comment above. Lived here for 10 years and never seen anything like it. The older residents (including the Board President) waging active war on owners and renters with children over what was once a play space upstairs. Del Boca Vista meets the terminator.
Yes they can 212mike
Can an HDFC co op vote to opt out of the program?
Yes, once you purchase it doesn't matter what you make any time after. Cash purchases either are gifts, inheritance, or a profit from a previous sale. For resale income restrictions will go up but they won't go away. We explored un-HDFCing for our coop and it's near impossible. There are rules in the property deed of what the property can be used for and the property taxes will go up considerably increasing the maintenance considerably. Some buildings have enforcement mortgages that you might have to pay as well.
NYC Matt, yes many people have lied to get an apartment and depending on location original owners can sell for a lot but if the coop wasn't foolish enough to reduce or eliminate the flip tax there is little opportunity for a cash windfall. Most HDFCs are not run well and have terrible financials limiting financing options for potential buyers. HDFC isn't perfect but the city continuing to be the landlord for these buildings would probably be worse.
"Once you are in the apartment, there is nothing stopping you from getting a new job that pays above the income limits."
Which is what you'd have to do to be able to afford these apartments in the first place.
Or just pull a Charlie Rangel and lie outright.
HDFC is one of the biggest legitimate real estate scams in the city today.
Yes, there is a bit of a gold rush mentality out there with at least some of the HDFC's, especially the one's in Manhattan. It's only been in the last 5 years where the Harlem HDFC's have been seeing prices out of line with the income restrictions. HDFC's that were originally built as luxury buildings tend to sell at astronomical prices, while the one's that were originally constructed as tenements tend to be closer aligned with the income restrictions- but still very expensive. There are HDFC's in Harlem where the prices are reasonable, but the boards are very strict about the amounts as well as the source of the downpayment (i.e. no parents buying for children).
That said, once an HDFC, always an HDFC- as posted earlier, don't count on the income restrictions going away. It's not a very common situation. That said, not every board is so strict, and they will allow for situations like parents buying for children. As to determining family income- the restriction is only applicable at the time of purchase and resale (your future buyers income). Once you are in the apartment, there is nothing stopping you from getting a new job that pays above the income limits.
The standard requirements seem to be 25% DTI and 2 years post closing of maintenance and mortgage. If you have 6 times that may set off the fact that your DTI is a bit over 25% or you could pay down some debt to get there. Co-ops aren't required to state their requirements and most don't disclose so make sure you have a good broker who will know about different building requirements and be able to present a good total picture of you on the application.
As swiftykat said, each coop has their own set of requirements. The seller or their broker should have let you know what the requirements for the particular coop you are attempting to purchase in before you signed the contract of sale.
Hi sonata0401. When you say your post closing liquidity is about 6x...6x of what? Many coops look for buyers to have at least 2 years worth of carrying costs in post closing liquidity. Others require that buyers have liquid assets in multiples of the purchase price. All depends.
I am in the process of purchasing a unit in a coop building in NYC. My debt service ratio is 28%, and my post closing liquidity is about 6x. How flexible are boards in considering these two financial measures?
yes hofo sorry, Ive approached reading glasses age and not used to making sure I always have them yet. :)
Yes that is correct but you can still own 3 units in the same complex with one being your primary, per the requirement you listed:
Co-op or condo owners cannot own more than three residential units in any one development and one of the units must be the owner’s primary residence.
hofo, as of a couple years ago primary residence is required.
details on the link i provided
Cooperative and Condominium Tax Abatement
The deadline to submit the 2016/2017 Co-Op Tax Benefit Change Form is February 15, 2017. All forms must be postmarked by February 15, 2017. We encourage you to submit your form as soon as possible. If you have any questions, please click here or contact 311.
Owners of cooperative units and condominiums who meet the requirements for the Co-op/Condo Property Tax Abatement can have their property taxes reduced. The amount of the abatement is based on the average assessed value of the residential units in the building.
Abatement percentages are as follows:
Average Assessed Value
Benefit Amount Per Year
$50,000 or less
$50,001 - $55,000
$55,001 - $60,000
$60,001 and above
The co-op or condo unit must be the owner's primary residence.
You must have purchased the unit on or before January 5 to qualify for the abatement for the upcoming tax year. If the unit was purchased after January 5, you can apply for the next tax year.
Co-op or condo owners cannot own more than three residential units in any one development and one of the units must be the owner’s primary residence.
Property must be classified as a Class 2 property.
Co-op or condo owners cannot be receiving any of the following exemptions or abatements:
420c, 421a, 421b, or 421g
Cooperative properties are not eligible for the Clergy exemption
The co-op or condo property cannot be:
a Housing Development Fund Corporation (HDFC);
a Limited Divided Housing Companies, Redevelopment Company;
a Mitchell-Lama Building or
in the Division of Alternative Management Programs (DAMP) Program.
Units owned by a business (LLC) are not eligible.
Units held by sponsors or their successors in interest are not eligible.
Units owned by a trust are eligible only if the unit is the primary residence of the beneficiary of the trust, trustee, or life estate holder.
I think for Co-op, it doesn't need to be your primary to receive the credit. I think the law is if you own 3 or fewer apartments in the complex you can still apply and receive the rebate for all three units. So you can live in one and rent the other two out and still qualify.
When I purchased my first co-op I didn't know anything applying for the rebate and I was out of pocket for the amount of the assessment that my building levied to claim the rebate.. When I moved to another apartment (in the same building) I knew to apply. I seem to remember being ineligible for that year because I had moved in after the deadline and also for the following year. Apparently, that is the rule. I also remember having to establish that the apartment is my primary residence. My building routinely claims the rebate as a one-off assessment each year. They factor the revenue into the budget.
Thank you so much for your helpful comments. I will check the bylaws.
BTW I don't mean to suggest that property managers are scary, or mostly dishonest; that has not been my experience. In my experience all the PMs in my life have all been careful and honest with my money. I'm just a stickler and believer in good accounting practices, and when they are not followed, I do not like it, even if nothing bad happens as a consequence. My friends who've lived in self-managed buildings without professional property management have often wished they lived in a bigger building with a real managing agent.
The property manager is an agent for the board, not an agent for the residents of the building. Technically if you're not on the board, the agent does not work for you, but of course practically speaking you call the agent to do things for you as a resident.
Property managers have lots of opportunities to commit fraud if the board is unaware of the hazards. I just sold a condo unit run by an incredibly naive, clueless board and just about kissed the closing table when the whole thing was over. If the board is unaware or easily conned by things like Christmas gifts, a property manager can pad expenses by supplying only the canceled checks instead of the invoices, or can provide invoices from companies that the PM controls for services that were not needed, not done, or over charged for. And that's just a couple of things they can do.
All that said: Check the governing documents (bylaws usually) to see what the board member qualifications are. If ownership of shares is required, then check ACRIS to make sure the PM meets that requirement, and all others. If that is the case---in my humble opinion having the PM on the board is no worse than having them not on the board. So Zoe, I would not be worried at all if I were you. If voted off the board, the board can still use the very same PM as their agent, who is also an owner of shares.
Everyone buying a co op or condo should investigate the property manager before signing on the dotted line. Find out if they get good reviews, make sure they are licensed. If the board is ignorant, or worse, you may not to reconsider buying into that building.
Is the property manager also an owner in the building? And is there any indication the board is sophisticated about managing the conflicts of interest inherent in a board member supervising his or her own work?
I am new to a building whose Property Manager is also on our board. Is this a typical arrangement? I feel that should an issue arise with this agent, I would have no recourse because this person is also on the board.
In my mid-20s, I purchased a small studio in Midtown. Since I was younger than most buyers, I offered to front extra maintenance and mortgage into an escrow account for a specified time period, which showed I was serious about the process. Fortunately, the Board limited the escrow to just 2 years of maintenance but it definitely helped me get approved. I highly recommend offering more than the 2 years, especially if you have enough liquidity and really like the building/unit.
I can get you a loan commitment from a lender even before you have identified the property you want to buy. . That could give you some leverage. This is far different than a pre approval. Therefore when you go to contract, the lending process is faster and seamless.
Licensed Mortgage Broker since 1990 NMLS#60631
Licensed RealEstate Broker since 1987
As a general rule of thumb when buying a co-op; 25% debt to income (some adhere strictly to this number. Others will be okay with 26%-29%). 2 years loan payment/maintenance liquid post close. Plenty of boards are okay with 1 year if income and dti are solid. Also bonus v salary can factor in. Though it certainly looks good to have well funded retirement accounts, they won't be considered for the liquidity number.. Boards will also weigh all the variables; dti, salary, employment length, savings- meaning there is not just one factor that will eliminate you.
Then you have what I call the 'Park Avenue corridor' where you are looking at 1-3X sale price and minimal financing allowed (applies to some UWS buildings as well).
It can be very frustrating and difficult to know what each board wants to see. Certain buildings are obvious. If a client has just 1 year liquid we always ask for guidance when scheduling the viewing.
The Burkhardt Group
I just bought a cooperative on the UES. They looked at the debt to income ratio first and then the liquid assets. Our broker tipped us off to the "debt to income ratio" before we submitted offers to any of the places we saw. He said to plan that 25% was going to be the cut-off.
Your debt-to-income ratio is also a crucial component. Even if you have strong liquid assets post closing, if your debt-to-income ratio is higher than, say, 30% (with many co-ops requiring even lower numbers--it's not uncommon to see 25% as a cut-off) you will not be considered.
We are a professional couple living in Portland, Oregon. My husband is one of the most prominent architects of our city. Look up Portland Brewery Blocks and the Portland Armory. His firm designed those and many other significant buildings in Seattle also. He recently had to retire because of Parkinsons. Both of our adult children live on the East Coast, one in New York City, and we thought this would be the ideal time to move there. We are an incredibly close family. I have worked in the news business for years, as a reporter and anchor. I took time off to raise my family and now am planning to go through the NYCf teachers fellows program, hoping to make a difference in a school in NYC with special needs. I was born in Seville, Spain, grew up in New Jersey and moved out West 25 years ago for a job. We made an all cash offer, had excellent financials and impeccable reference letters, some of which were from our current neighbors who went on and on to say what decent, kind and interesting neighbors we are. We were so excited.
Tell us about you and your family so we have better context to reply.
I would recommend being very cautious about buying into this building. If you do your checking, you will see that all or most of the units 'for sale' now were 'in contract' two months ago. We tried to buy unit 9f back in September, made all cash offer, had impeccable credentials and references, would have made ideal neighbors. Board strung us along for two months and we had to do the calling to find out we had been rejected. Very bad experience. My question is… why are these four units back on the market?
I'd be careful.
Don't buy in a building where your would-be fellow shareholders don't want you investing in the quality of your apartment and the building.
The color is not the issue, the person who advised you on this probably has in mind that a board may be offput by candidates with disruptive renovation plans. Painting is generally not one of those.
If it doesn't come up, don't bring it up yourself. If they ask about renovations, answer briefly and truthfully -- you may bring in a painter but don't plan anything extensive.
Why would the board care if you paint your walls off white or any other color? As long as you are not painting outside your apartment no one cares.
The walls of the co-op I want to purchase are white, likely for showing. I already know that I want off-white in the living room and seafood in the bedroom. Both are very light colors. I am told by all not to even mention or suggest I might paint during the board interview.
Any suggestions? Thank you.
Board has discretion on many items , shareholders would need a super-majority to vote down certain issues
Our building has allowed people to use their apts as pied a terre.
Now the Board has said they will no longer allow us to sell to anyone who wants to use it as such. Can they do it? Shouldn't this be up to a vote of shareholders as it impacts on potential resale value?
Grogan and associates sent me C&C for January they forget to put the 5 percent surcharge to fix the roof and the violations we do not need an English teacher here we need someone who understands how maintain and repair a building as well have skills to have civilized and productive conversation how address issues free of thread and yelling like fool at end of the day if you intelligence to do whatever job you do actions not words serve the the Grogan and associates I do not believe have these tools and actions they taken trying to resolve the issues in building I believe proof fact and they should be in another profession other people are looking into there actions as well Thank You
I believe that this is the forth or fifth time they are trying to resolve the roof possibly more .This summer Micheal and m at beekman received major violations at this buildings.I believe this gives creditably to my words I believe this building is becoming or is an dangerous building at the end of the day I believe Micheal and M at Beekman board are to hold responsible as well as Grogan and associates,this some homework I believe this truly an unusual situation I believe the board are taking get so comfort in having liability insurance I believe when and if the lawsuits come they are going to be surprised like I said I believe this is a truly unusual situation having done my homework and speaking to other persons I believe they will be surprised by there insurance company I have made quite a bit of information pubic and few few surprises Thank you
jelj13 ... what does your comment have to do with this thread ?
I lived in a newly constructed condo with the latest and greatest state of the art roof. It failed throughout the city wherever this style roof was installed, even in a building across the street built by a different developer. We had 3 new roofs within 15 years until we finally found the proper replacement. The first roof was a replacement from the manufacturer. The second was a re-do of the replacement along with parapet work. The third was a totally redesigned roof that finally worked! We had 3 different managing agents during that time frame.
I don't see why you wouldn't need board approval, if I'm wrong somebody correct me. The building was presumably paid the rent (maintenance) it was owed by shareholder who defaulted, if any, because the building is ahead of the bank in getting paid. The bank just sold its asset, which was shares. I see the situation as similar to an inheritance, where board approval is typically required.
I recently won an auction for a co-op that was previously REO'd. My question is, will I need board approval to close on the property?
It may be a situation that has to do with the transaction rather than the buyer. For example, if the Board didn't think the price would set a good precedent for the building they may reject the transaction regardless of the buyer.
Exactly, what neighborhood is this in?
Where is this co-op located ?
A few other notes:
>>Or if the board saw a no-go situation coming, wouldn't they likely just remind people what is acceptable and what isn't and give the buyers a chance to change gears and submit an application that was potentially acceptable?<<
>>Either wait and see what something looks like on paper when submitted, or remind seller what is acceptable let them work with buyer to adjust & submit<<
No. If the buyer is unacceptable because of financial reasons there is no way to 'fix' that. If your income or liquid assets are deemed too low to comfortably carry the monthly costs after purchase then it is what it is. No way around it. Boards do not like to waste time wading though packages if it is clear from the get-go that the applicant is not acceptable.
>> But wouldn't the seller know up front what was acceptable and what wasn't <<
Not necessarily. Sellers are often completely clueless on board/building policies. It is not at all uncommon for a buyer to be rejected before submitting a package, especially if there is an issue with guarantors or co-signers, which is a deal-breaker for many boards.
The selling agent should have done his/her homework, though, and understood what is and is not acceptable in a buyer in this co-op. You are lucky that the rejection came early, presumably before you began spending time and money on due diligence, etc. But it is a bummer to have gone through the trouble and expense of drawing up a contract if there was already a known kibosh on the deal. I'd take it up with your broker or the selling agent, though it is unlikely you'll be able to recoup any money.
Coops usually only want to see last 2 months of the bank statements, so if the deposits were made before 2 months, you dont need to request the letters. If you are financing, your bank may also ask for clarifications on multiple deposits - they should be satisfied with the wedding gift explanations and you an show a copy of your marriage certificate, so that they can see that these events were close in time. I had exactly the same situation with clients and their bank was satisfied by the above xplanations.
Can you tell us more about the co-op in question, e.g. what neighborhood, what price points,
interesting , never thought of this
In addition, the board can ask for a gift tax return from the gifter(if the amount is >$14K from one individual) to make sure this is all legal.
This is a question of art -- how much money relative to your income, and how long have you had it? If you've had it for more than six months, then no. If you've had it for less than three, then I probably would. Ditto if you've had it for six but it's a substantial chunk of change relative to your finances.
The Board should follow by-laws , no matter who's elected/appointed
See page 5 at http://www.ag.ny.gov/sites/default/files/pdfs/bureaus/real_estate_finance/Condo.Problems.pdf
We live in a small condo (11 units commercial ground floor), converted more than 20 years ago, where the sponsor has retained several of the units the commercial space. As a result, he has 55% of the votes and still controls the Board by appointing non-owner individuals that respond to him (4 out of 7 Board members). Is that allowed? Isn't there a requirement in NYC that the sponsor relinquish Board control within 5 years of conversion, regardless of its share in the condo?
Oh dear..........what a tough situation.
I was kvetching about my apartment on this board a few months back, and somebody on the board wrote: you should just move.
So I pass that advice along to you. We moved out in mid Sept and are enjoying the peace and the quiet in the new place.
My main problem is the noise. That the cat runs around (and the tenant as well) at 2 or 3 am when I'm trying to sleep. Or that things are being dropped overhead and I can't get a good night's sleep. The lady upstairs apparently is retired and never leaves the apartment. Our building has bad acoustics between floors so you can hear everything from one floor to the next. I had her stomp around one time when I had a cold and was coughing so it goes both ways. I talked to the super when I first moved in about her stomping and he claimed she had rugs everywhere. They really don't seem to be helping much. I've heard this cat for about 2 years ever since I've moved in so I'm pretty sure it's here to stay and that the neighbor is entitled enough to feel that she can let it run loose. Maybe I will talk to her or the super tomorrow about the noise and if it continues I will write a letter to the president of the coop board.
In my building, we're allowed 2 pets, cats or dogs. We have one neighbor whose red tiger cat seemed to get out in the hallway all the time. Someone from the building staff went into the apartment and discovered that there were actually NINE red tiger cats there. They were so much alike that you couldn't tell them apart. That's one way to beat the pet rules!!!!! You couldn't tell that she had so many cats - no odors, no noise.
You refer to the neighbor above as "tenant". Could it be possible that this person has a "grandfathered in" pet for a tenant that was allowed pets when they moved. If that is the case, forget the cat and speak to your neighbor about the disturbance and if that does not work, then talk to the board. Cover yourself so that you do not come off as a mal content which I don't feel that you are.
Possibly one of the larger size glue traps might work in this situation.
Streeteasy.com defaults to Sales or Rentals if you want it. Can it be set to default only to your choice borough?
Their's a limit to how low a seller can unload their apartment
Wanderer: Useful info, and well worth the time to read. Thanks!
here you go, might not be the latest info but it gives you a good idea of what the board can do.
The board may reject the proposed sale, as it diminishes the value of all the apartments in the building (or, more accurately, the values of shares in the corporation). Your contract contains a statement that the contract between you and the seller is contingent upon the board's approval of you and the contract terms, so yes, the co-op can keep the contract from being completed (if the contract doesn't, you need a better lawyer). If your application has been denied, it is unlikely they're going to invite you for an interview. Your broker should speak with the sellers broker who can maybe suss it out with the seller and the board to ensure that the board isn't mis-reading the sellers concession as a reduction in the price per share. If the board is holding to a particular price per share, you can either pay up, or walk.
Separately, why on earth would you not have market comps in front of you when you made your offer?
Not an expert at all but weren't boards left and right rejecting sales prices that were too low during the credit recession of 2008-2009?
It's important to have a Board with high standards .
I would submit that a "strict" board is good , even when sellers complain that they can't sell ( they were happy buying with the same standards though)
Move. Good time to sell, rent a while and do more research before buying again. Worked fine for us.
Why don't you join the board and convince some like minded people to join you. Effect change from within.
I would sell right now after 1 year here, except spouse won't agree (commute's too good/hates to move). But I'm sure either the board will change or we will be gone in a few years.
Looking back, pre purchase, the only clues were: building not clean relative to its price point ($950 square foot low floor currently); numerous small neglected jobs around the building (leaking outdoor faucet pulled out of wall, failure to keep things painted, smelly trash area with houseflies); board involved in a stupid lawsuit.
Good question. Given all the seemingly endless problems where I live now?.....yes, the strict, slightly crazy UES co-op was better than this.
Then there're lots of small-time developers out in Brooklyn who built would-be condos during the last boom, got 421a, got caught in the bust and rented them out instead, but neglected to tell tenants they were RS: http://nyti.ms/1PxsHw7
These are cases where someone takes advantage of the middle class , due to shortsighted policies
CIpriani guy, Peter Cooper Village lady, all unfairly benefitting at cost to other taxpayers.
The Cipriani guy's apartment being RS is a great example of the magic of 421-a.
The rental unit there at 450 W 42nd gets a 20-year tax abatement. This year Related is paying $273,000 rather than $5,500,000. In return, the apartments have to be rent-stabilized. What's great for Related is, the base rents
started so high, so they get the benefit of no taxes while not taking a hit on income. The tenants do get the benefit of guaranteed lease renewals, so it's not entirely one-sided.
I lost count of the Cipriani guy's cases. Lots, NYS and federal.
NYS does have a 50-hour pro-bono requirement for admittance to the bar. Then your biannual fees go to indigent legal services.
A lot of lawyers do pro-bono work, but there's no requirement. A big firm's website will list what they're involved in.
If you're a lawyer at a storefront in Ridgewood, reduced to representing notoriety-seeking comedians, pro-bono might not be high on your due-to-society list.