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Yes Dan. We also give our clients a signed letter and of course the check from my company is clearly marked as a commission rebate. The IRS has also ruled on an individual case that was brought by REDFIN Realty, of course that was for that particular buyer, however it does give an indication of their position.
The Burkhardt Group
Agree with West81st and vsle65 -- definitely best to consult your accountant and/or lawyer. It is my understanding as well that rebates are not taxable as income, but rather deemed a reduction in basis. However, since the rebate is not reflected on any closing document, when I give clients rebates, I deliver the rebate to the client with a letter that describes our prior agreement regarding the rebate so that it is evidenced somewhere tangible. This protects both me (so that I don't get taxed on the rebate) and my client (who now has a piece of paper evidencing the source of those funds).
Digs Realty Group
Keith B. has researched this topic pretty thoroughly, and all the feedback he has obtained indicates that a commission rebate to the buyer is NOT taxable income. That's why we don't issue 1099s to our clients. Naturally, you should check with your accountant and attorney to confirm that they share this view.
As for the effect of the rebate on your basis, a dollar-for-dollar reduction of your basis seems logical. Since the rebate doesn't show up on any paperwork from your closing, you are basically on the honor system to adjust your basis. All I can say is that's probably the right thing to do. Again, consult your accountant.
vslse65, calm down. Most people who ask specific questions like this are not seeking professional advice; they're just looking for some initial direction before asking the question for "real" (and being zinged by a $1200 bill).
Sometimes, a question is just a question.
Ask your CPA.
I cringe when people ask strangers on the internet about law or accounting. I'm not being harsh (and hope you don't misconstrue), but these matters are best handled by pros.
We're not talking about the best place to get a bagel...
Hi, are you still interested in finding a buyer's broker? Please feel free to contact us at 718.412.0000, our office is located at 3727 Riverdale Ave near W 238th St.
First-time home buyer here. Can anyone recommend an exclusive buyer's agent for Riverdale co-ops? My preliminary experience with a dual broker last year was less than satisfying when he tried to push one of his listings on me the same day I met with him.
Do exclusive buyer's agents even exist for Riverdale? My research has led to disappointing results.
Many thanks for any advice!
Are Upstairs' services available in C0lumbia C0unty? Or is it limited to counties with homes with second stories?
Congrats Ali and best of luck! (btw, it still says front_porch). ;)
rb, where were you when I was 15? ps I am going to email you to ask for your floorplan guy. West81, I'm going to email you too... would love to have a meal!
and thanks for the good wishes all!
Congratulations, Ali! I like your new business address. Let's hit Sun Cafe for sushi (or Bouley after you close your next big deal).
My sales contracts were 90 days post contract and only to those listed by selling agent as prospective buyers.
What is the typical term for a commission tail in NYC broker contracts? I (not using a buyer's broker) saw an apartment in late 2012 that was de-listed by late 2012. It was then re-listed by the same brokerage. It was then de-listed again, about 10 months ago. Shortly after it was de-listed for the second time I reached out to the selling broker to inquire if the apartment went under contract and made a soft indication of an interest to make an offer, but it seemed that the seller was not receptive at that time. I'm looking to transact directly with the seller now and trying to figure out if they will be on the hook for a commission. Thanks!
We have interest in this property but see a good number of violations and HPD actions. This could just be caused by the initial construction as NYC violations are bound to happen during the construction phase. I am wondering how renter and owners of this property rate their experience now? Is there good sound proofing? Are there problems with leaks? Do management and residents tend to get along? etc. I very much like the loft look but would just like to be sure the lifestyle is right for me
What do people make of "...with no demising walls" in the 50 Bridge St. building description? No death-causing walls!? I think the broker meant: "with no walls to compromise the space..." or something similar. I know being a broker means trying to find new forms of rhetoric, but I see so many malapropisms in these property descriptions that when it comes time for me to sell, I'll market my own property--without 'demising' the walls or anything else.
Hey aboutready, how was your vacation? You getting ready to send the kids to school?
Thanks Jazzman, that is definitely not enough money for Aboutready to trade in life of leisure.
The answer is here - http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes419022.htm
@Jelj13 you do know that Zillow owns Streeteasy.com right?
This merger will be very interesting. @Jelj13 I agree with you they do have horrible user interface and sometimes it can even get confusing. This just means that those looking to buy can find without a broker, those looking to sell can do so as well but will have a harder time dealing with the buyers without the broker. (My opinion). Who's going to follow up with 3 month worth of paper work, and would you trust someone who isn't a professional with hundreds of thousands of dollars or millions of your money?
I'd like to see how that affects the format of StreetEasy. Both Zillow and Trulia have terrible websites. We were thinking of moving out of town and found their information on houses inaccurate.
What does the StreetEasy crowd think about this?
it is cheaper to go coop but limited budget usually means coops will not accept if strict. stay within your means
LOL why would you do all the leg work yourself? You PAY for a broker by the commission being included in the price. Why not take advantage their services?
You're expecting white glove service from agents in the Rolls Royce of real estate markets in this country -- with a Chevy budget. Sorry, but it's true -- you simply are not worth most agents' time. It's like walking into Tiffany and expecting the staff to drop everything to engrave your tin ring you found in a box of Cracker-Jack.
Another satisfied customer of the Burkhardt Group here! I purchased a lovely studio in Manhattan for under $500k in 2013 with their help. You should do alot of your own legwork using Streeteasy and other sites but when you find the right place, call Keith and Christian. They will expertly take you through the rest of the process and, best of all, you get a check at closing. Call them, you won't be disappointed.
I work at The Corcoran Group and would be happy to help you as I've worked with various budgets.
Some of you can't read,
Some of you are waaay too lazy,
Some clients know more than you about the biz,
Some of you don't even KNOW what your clients want,
Some of you make last minute appts, and then don't show w/o even calling,
And you wonder why we have such a bad rep?
Have some F'ing courtesy/decency to your colleagues, tenants, clients, mgmt companies, etc...
- Rant over
I'm in contract now with my apartment, using Real Direct as our brokers. We had a great experience - multiple offers and in contract after about 2 weeks. The only downside for the seller is that it's time consuming to show the apartment to each inquiry, but for us, the savings from not paying a huge broker fee was very worth it! I would recommend it to someone who has the time, and is extremely knowledgeable about the marketplace.
Sorry for the slow response. I didn't see this posting. Buyer's should have some comfort that we vet all of our sellers and confirm all of the information in the listing just as we do for our Agent Managed listings. Our team is involved with every inquiry that comes in, and we often lead the negotiation. Furthermore, we are the point person on all documents and ensure that the financials, offering plan and deal sheet are distributed to the appropriate people. While there are potential pitfalls to all deals, we've become quite adept at spotting and fixing them due to the volume of deals we see. So in a nutshell, our Owner Managed program is not a FSBO - it's an alternative brokerage model that allows the seller to show the home, but they are assisted every step of the way by our licensed agents to ensure a smooth transaction .
@douglasternnyc - One of the apts I'm interested in is listed on realdirect.com. Can you speak to how RealDirect brokers would be involved with closing a deal and working with the buyer? As a potential buyer, I'm a bit wary of how organized and truthful the seller would be about the property. Will the RealDirect broker be the point of contact to get the building financials, house rules etc? Will they also be the ones setting up the board meeting etc? Thanks in advance for your input!
I am the founder of RealDirect. We have worked with hundreds of sellers over the past 3 years and we are a licensed brokerage as well as a member of the Real Estate Board of NY. We work with sellers in both a full service "Agent Managed" capacity as well as our "Owner Managed" program. For owners who are inclined to sell themselves and have the time and ability to do so, the Owner Managed program is a great deal and has been very successful. We advise the sellers every step of the way, but they show their own properties (again with our guidance).
Of course not everyone is successful (although the vast majority are). Some Owner Managed sellers will try us simply to test the market at a very high price for a month, an if they don't get it, they de-list. Others have properties that are "under water" and need to net a certain price or they won't sell. Still others may think they have the time to show, but then they realize it's too time consuming. For those clients we offer them the option to switch to our Agent Managed program and get a refund on whatever they have paid against our commission.
If anyone has any specific questions about how we work, I would be happy to answer them in this thread or over email. And if anyone wants to speak to our sellers - active, closed or de-listed - I would be happy to put you in touch.
1. Sibbald was quoted and followed in SPRE, which is less than 40 days old
2. an attorney cannot be a procuring cause o his or her own purchase
3. SPRE and Sibbald are really clear about that
4. an attorney acting as broker must bring 3rd parties to enter into a deal
I have intentionally tried to avoid addressing your "straw man" because the underlying question which initiated this conversation was whether an attorney may/ should collect a commission when purchasing a home and whether an attorney must obtain a separate real estate license to do so. As I have stated numerous times above, an attorney may act as a broker and receive a commission without obtaining a real estate license. Whether a broker has sufficient ties to the parties or a particular transaction (is the "procuring cause" to use your term) to entitle the broker to a fee in a particular transaction is not the topic of discussion. Nevertheless, lest anyone be misled by your postings, I will address your (unrelated) points.
As you know, SPRE Realty v Dienst sought to better define when a broker's link to a particular transaction is sufficient to entitle that broker to a commission. It distinguished between the role of a broker sufficient to entitle the broker to a commission from a link between the broker, parties, and transaction which is "indirect and remote," and, therefore, insufficient to warrant payment of a commission. That case does not discuss at all whether an attorney may collect a commission for property purchased by that attorney.
In any event, the law which regulates the payment of commissions to licensed brokers, agents ,etc. is Real Property law Article 12-a. Attorneys are specifically exempted from Article 12-a by Real Property Law Section 442-f. If you can locate a statute or case which holds that an attorney may not collect a broker's commission on the purchase of real property by that attorney, I will read it. However, I have not found anything which says that. In fact, as stated repeatedly by me above, the opposite is true.
By the way, I was able to locate Sibbald v Bethlehem Steel. It would have helped if you had mentioned that it was from 1881 (and predates Real Property Law 442-f). In any event, its holding is similar to SPRE Realty and does not address commissions payable to attorney buyers.
Hopefully, this "sideline" discussion will not prove distracting to a reader interested in the original inquiry: whether an attorney may collect a commission on the purchase of his/ her own home and whether an attorney must obtain a separate broker's license to do so. The answers remain that an attorney MAY collect a commission and a separate broker's license is NOT required.
I read the article you attached. It suggests only that ...
Ottawanyc isn't even qualified to be Canadian, not sure why you are listening to what he says.
1. looked at Cianelli
2. at it says is that an attorney doesn't need to be licensed to act as a real estate broker
3. it doesn't address the procuring cause point I have made
4. SPRE Realty v. Dienst does
5. it is a May 20th First Department case
I read the article you attached. It suggests only that the attorney may not serve both as a broker and as the attorney for a party simultaneously. I agrre with this, but this is not what we have been discussing. The discussion has been whether an attorney can serve as a broker and receive his/her commission for doing so. Sorry for the homework assignment. It is just that the law is so clear, that I thought the best advice I could give you would be to read Real Property Law Section 442-f for your self rather than rely upon (some inaccurate) representations of the law as set forth above.
I attempted to read the case cited by rb but cannot locate it. It must not be published. I would be happy to review it if rb would attach a link. As for the case law rb has requested, please see Application of Cianelli, 16 AD2d 352; Weinblatt v Parkway-St. Johns, 135 Misc. 743 as well as Attorney General opinion 108, all of which remain unchallenged good law and hold that an attorney at law is not required to be licensed as a broker in order to act as a real estate broker.
My posts have been consistent and truthful and it is my hope that hey prove helpful. I will again suggest that you read the law yourself to avoid being misled.
BEST APARTMENTS.INC - Do not work with Joe and Richard.
These people told me that broker fee is 15% and non-negotiable because they have to pay another broker (I still don't understand why I have to sign with two different brokers in different companies).
I wasn't happy with it, but I decided I took the apartment and signed the application.
The day when I signed the contract, I met the other broker first time and found out that the broker fee was 10.5%.
I was so angry and wanted to cancel the contract. To me, it was not about the money. I could not stand with this guy, because he lied.
After 1hr arguing, nothing changed. I just had to pay 15% broker fee.
I really regret that I believed this guy and signed the contract before talking to the other broker.
rateyoubroker.com domain is for sale, site no longer active.
I've had my fair share of problems with brokers. This is the reason I've started my own brokerage company-New York Home Experience. Our goal is to deliver truthful expert advice. We work one-on-one with our clients and you'll find we are ready to listen.
Please contact me at: Jonathan@nyhomeexperience.com
Hello Nut. This is not how it works. If total brokerage is 6%, 3% goes to the attorney/buyer and 3% to the selling/listing agent. It does not cost the seller anything. It is is 5%, it is 2.5/2.5. It is no different than with
a "buyers agent." The attorney buyer co-brokers. Whether the seller chooses to pay the 3% to the attorney buyer or decrease what the seller is owed by the 3% (you could add it to down payment if it makes it easier to understand) does not affect what the seller pockets.
That is nut how it works.
"It is within reason that you could approach a broker about a listing and say you are self represented and therefore expect the final purchase price be less the 3% buyer's brokerage commission (2.5% if the broker is operating on a 5% commission) as you are not represented by a broker."
I think one needs to be careful about how the dollars work in asking for 3% reduction. Let's do the math: on a 1M sales price, total brokerage is 60K. If you ask for a 30K reduction by representing yourself, the sales price drops to 970K. The total brokerage is now 6%*970K = 58.2K. So the "broker" still gets almost the same amount of commission (58.2K vs 60K) and you indeed benefit by 3%. However this comes out of the seller's pocket by 30K, and effectively the seller is paying a total commission 8.82% between the reduction to you and the commission to the broker: i.e. (30K 58.2K)/1M = 8.82%
So, in reality it maybe hard than it seems on the surface to simply ask for a 3% reduction since it is really funded by the seller. The "broker" is still netting about the same commission after the price drop (i.e. 58.2K vs 60K).
From the attorney comments above, it seems that using an attorney has its challenges too.
Like many things, devils are in the details and it is easier said than done.
Prana Risk Insurance Services, LLC
Who isn't they?
Baier, what neighborhood was this in?
1. I rented an apt Saturday: to tenants
2. many brokers called about my rental
3. some were very helpful and professional
4. others enraged me by their abusive conduct
5. if you continue to look try to find one broker you trust and work
with him or her exclusively, and be loyal to them and respect
their efforts, even if you don't want what you are initially shown
Is there a forum out there for broker reviews: gossip or praise? I went to Yelp and saw a discussion that those reviews (mostly for renters) seem to get removed.
I just went apartment shopping this weekend, to buy, not to rent, and had some good experiences, and some bad. I saw one place by some wrinkly old bag that treated me like something she found on the bottom of her shoe. I know I come off young, but I have money. I wasn't in love with the place, but dealing with her certainly soured my thoughts about it as well.
I had some positive experiences too, but you know, this is New York. If something's too good to be true, it probably is. I'd like to cross-check them too.
To negotiate a deal without a buyer's broker is similar to walking into court as a pro se litigant. A buyer will be overwhelmed with the not only the process but paperwork involved to complete the transaction.
We are available as both a buyers and sellers broker. My company is New York Home Experience. We provide truthful expert advice and are ready to listen.
Please contact me to discuss a working relationship with our company: firstname.lastname@example.org
help deciphering the up-to-date information is helpful.
A buyer broker can be really beneficial. I recently helped a client purchase a home in NYC. My clients did NOT have to worry about paying my fee for using my services as the seller was paying the fee already. Many buyers who go directly to the listing broker think they will reduce the amount they pay for the apartment. When in fact, the seller has ALREADY agreed to the amount they will pay the seller and selling broker for procuring and brokering a deal. As a selling broker, I was able to help my clients deciphering the up-to-date information, help with the board package and board interviews and help with any questions or concerns along the way. Had my clients not used a broker they would have provided much for financial information and might have quit along the way due to the time it took to get the process done.
W81 -- I have done it every which way under the sun, and your assumption is about what everyone does, which I can't know -- but on the face of it, what you say sounds right.
"So go buy in London then.
NYC won't miss you."
Trying to educate trolls like you that you are being fleeced. You work for the board of realtors or something? Didn't think so. They have high standards there. GSE equivalent "no degree loans".
Charles how very Easter of you in that photo!
Oh yay; content!
and your lawyer's fiduciary is to you alone--his/her job is to keep you out of trouble--and s/he is comparatively cheap: couple 3 g's
I have a question regarding moving out during a doorman strike. If the building won't allow move in or out (they have already said this) and I can't move out before the possible strike date am I responsible for rent if the strike goes beyond my lease termination date and my stuff (but not me) is still in the apartment?
Compensation and agency are two separate things. That said, brokers -- not agents -- collect compensation.
LES agent said "licensed colleague" -- and it's not clear to me whether that means "another agent at my firm" or "a friend who's a broker at another firm."
If it's the former, your sponsoring broker may have rules about how these situations are handled, and it may not be up to you. (At my old firm, if the agents hadn't set up share percentages beforehand, the sponsoring broker would call it 50/50). If your broker is asking you for a recommendation, then I think nah's guidelines are a sensible way to think about it. I certainly wouldn't go under 20% in any case.
If it's the latter, the offer was put in through another brokerage firm, which collects the entire compensation, and your friend is in the position of having to decide how to compensate your firm. The friend will probably pay whatever his firm's standard referral fee is (those seem to be running around 20-25%) plus maybe a top-off.
If this IS in your control, I would say the ultimate way to think about it is, "what payout would you want if your position was reversed with your friend's, and you were the one who got a deal through?"
Because honestly, if you know another agent or broker who can cover for you, and who makes your clients happy, it's worth a lot of money to you to keep that relationship strong.
I generally love these topics. The answer you are seeking isn't as simple as you might think. While others many not see the relevance, I think it's important to know or account for previous time spent with the "client." Meaning if this is someone you've worked with for 6 months, shown 30-40 apartments and had a last minute scheduling blip, then I would convey that to your colleague and I think somewhere btw 10% and 20% is appropriate. I'd personally air closer to 10%. However, if you are using the term "client" loosely and lets say you met the client on a Sunday two weeks ago at an open house and said, "hey, I've got a great place to show you," which you did on a Tuesday and then your colleague brought them back on a Thursday, for example, I'd be splitting that 50/50. In fact, Realtyjack does raise an interesting point about who took and presented the offer. If your colleague did, you would greatly simplify the process at this point by splitting 50/50 and not leaving room for later questioning. Obviously this goes deeper in terms of brokerage, agent production (you versus your colleague) and so on.
Whatever you decide, be true to the nature of this situation. If it was a one off showing it's a 50/50 split. If you've spent months of time and invested money then pay 10%, maybe 20%, which comes from your earnings. Not gross earning.
1. your colleague acted as your sub-agent and is not entitled to a commission
2. ten percent of your commission would seem reasonable and fair
3. but i would not hurt to poll brokers in your firm and ask your colleague
1) If you colleague took the offer, you may be not be entitled to anything since you may not have procured the offer or negotiated the terms of the agreement.
2) The split should have been worked out before the showing by the party you asked to assist you.
this was blown out .. Town is back on track and doing fabulous. Thats why it was rated as one of the best places to work!!!!
Interesting read, provides a more detailed account of the situation.
P.S. She was very kind to me when I was searching for an apartment in NYC. Lovely, down to earth person. At the time, she was with another agency, I believe Eliman.
Is Susan Singer still with Town?
I think this is the second top producing agent to leave Town since this all began.
Generally, Article 12-A of the Real Property Law provides that anyone who, on behalf of another and for a fee, 1) negotiates a sale, exchange or rental of real property, 2) collects rent, or 3) negotiates a commercial loan secured by a mortgage must be licensed as a real estate broker.
All licensed real estate salespersons in New York are required to work under the supervision of a real estate broker. A salesperson cannot operate independently.
I would like to know that if there is any other way to work as a salesperson but being an independent contractor?If someone can't be self employed would it be possible "to employ" the broker?Or any other solution?