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>Oh, and in case you are wondering, I am white.
Buyers Beware. I was recently rejected by this board. I am an ALL-CASH buyer, with sterling credit, abundant liquidity (cash and marketable securities sufficient to pay for more than a quarter century’s worth of maintenance (!), and no, I am not talking about my 401(k) investments; this is unrestricted, cold, hard cash), a net worth many times the value of the apartment, unblemished employment record (gainfully employed and well-known and respected in the same industry for over two decades, working for a major US company), and excellent references. Oh, and in case you are wondering, I am white. Go figure. No idea what these people are looking for. I really liked the apartment and I would have been a nice, quiet neighbor but in hindsight it’s probably better that I didn’t get in because selling in this building is obviously a nightmare. My attorney had warned me about the many rejections he noticed in the minutes of the board meetings but given my circumstances/credentials, he didn’t think I would have any problems. He would be wrong. Palace coup, anyone?
Assume your turndown #s are as a result of reading the board minutes. For the same period (Mar 2012 - Jan 2014 there appear to have been 28 completed sales (based on my quick read of SE data), so a rejection rate of about 14/42 (rejects / (rejects actual sales)). Roughly 33%. Any board members care to weigh in on how that compares to their building? I know a buyer in the building who certainly didn't have liquid assets 3x the purchase price, so perhaps her shirt was particularly sparkly. Perhaps you should talk to *another* broker about how he would manage prospective buyers and get their package through the process. That is what you pay them for, after all.
Either that, or they've trained brokers to prequalify better, or to run a potential buyer through the mini-board before flipping the in-contract switch. That'd make the building look easy while still keeping the riff-raff out.
have paid much more. Can't have it both ways.
The board may be trying to raise the financial/sartorial tone of the building, which means training the broker community. As with a dog or baby, that entails constant repetition.
Also, the building seems to be going through a demographic blip, with a high ratio of estate sales. That means lots of would-be flippers trying to get in on the cheap, so a high rate of turn-downs.
There are easier buildings, though. My own co-op across town is less than half the size, so fewer sales to go on, but the board hasn't turned anyone down in many years.
Another reason for low pricing - The board is incredibly strict and the rejection rate is similar to that of an ivy league university. Take a look at most of the units for sale today such as 16E. This one has entered into contract 4 times in the past year, and it never sold due to four rejections. Good luck if you ever want to sell
Regarding our building contractor..........it's been a few years since we used him and have recommended him to 3 or 4 people who have used him. I have never heard a bad word from anyone. Indeed, I bump into his people on occasion and everyone seems happy. So if you need a recommendation, send me an e-mail email@example.com. Doug Anderson. Apt 31h
Finally, we are 100 yards from the best subway station in New York City. We go to the theater at night and find that it takes 15 minutes from the front door of the building to pretty much any broadway theater and the trains are generally empty.
AMA1 your comment is total BS! You're so wealthy why would they ever reject you? The so well respected, why would they ever reject you? And Wow! You're White as well (Like we all assume it would be ok you were rejected if you were a minority). What an insulting and racist post! And, again, I'm calling total BS on everything your say! I went through this process with this same board recently and had no problems at all. Rejecting certain people protects all of our financial interests (remember each tenant is a a business partner). I'm sure you were rejected for a good reason and I'm happy you're not my business partner (or loose cannon, racist neighbor). Being careful as a board is a good thing that adds long term value to our building. Case in point: How much $ did residents have to cough up to cover the expenses of other residents becoming insolvent during the the recent economic implosion? ZERO! Yes that's right....zero. because the board has been doing it's job all these years! Don't get bitter...Get Better! Get your act together and one day you will be able to live amongst this quality group of people. Oh and by the way, this group includes many many minorities, who are obviously of higher quality than you (obviously they weren't rejected). Palace Kudos...to the board that is.
Hahaha! I'm calling B.S. on your entire post AMA1! I strongly believe, having been through the process, the board reviews potential buyers based on their financial position, type of character and intended use of the apartment. The fact that certain people are rejected who present a risk (financially, safety or quality of life) to the other tenants ("business partners") is a good thing, not a bad thing. Who would post an honest comment saying "sufficient to pay a quarter century of maintenance", "unrestricted, cold, hard cash", "net worth many times the value"? And then to top it off, YOU ACTUALLY ASSUME, WE MUST ALL BE WONDERING BY NOW IF YOU'RE A MINORITY SO YOU CLARIFY....."OH , IN CASE YOU'RE WONDERING, I AM WHITE" ! How extremely sad and offensive that you would say such a thing. Your attorney noticed a lot of rejections in the board minutes he reviewed? But given how great you are, he didn't think you would have a problem? Which is it? Did he warn you, or, did he not think you would have any problems? Whatever your motivation, your post, in my opinion, is a fabrication -of whole cloth! I'm happy a loser like you is not one of our business partners!!! You being rejected has made my investment more valuable -not less!
And correct that ACRIS can mis-file things. E.g., a filing for 771 WEA is under 711.
Complete novice here -- how much do you think it would cost to turn a place like this into a liveable building? High-end and low-end... I'm just a single guy and don't use up much space, but I would love to buy something to generate real estate income. Thanks!
I have a client that is highly interested in this location/building. Would greatly appreciate any further details pertaining to this new construction. Please call at 917-945-1886 or e-mail at Eyal@anchornyc.com
pier, I've always gotten the impression that it's the former .. but I'm really talking out of my hat as I've never sold there. My advice for potential buyers would be to quiz the listing agent on what the board might be looking for.
Oops, got my building-counts wrong. There're five LT cond-ops on the east side of WEA, and three on the west.
Right, the four Park West Village condos had no ownership interest in the lots along Columbus. They stayed under-developed, with the just the tennis courts and some retail, only as long as it made sense for the owners.
At LT, the sponsor kept the air rights for the four LT cond-ops on the east side of WEA and for the new condo at 200 WEA. The sponsor then used those to build the new rental building (Aire?) at the Amsterdam corner.
I don't know whether the sponsor has done anything with the air rights for the four LT cond-ops on the other side of WEA.
Real Estate NY, when the tennis courts were razed there were no coop or condo buildings there. The open land by Lincoln Towers is too small for anything.
ali, by strong as 3 years, or does that just you can't be short on the typical 2-year guideline? Of course I mean generally since no one speaks for the board.
wow...can't believe it's 5 years since the credit crisis. I remember July 2007 when the credit tightening began and Sept 2008 when Lehman went under? Remember how crazy it was? The world was ending, however absolute pure fear never took hold to take the economy completely down. I remember Buffet swooping in to save Goldman and GE with those loans. I was saying to myself here is the perfect capitalist and man of power to swoop in to save these mega power companies. Remember these boards? How crazy they were? it was posts every 20 seconds. Now it's every 20 hours. Remember how Manhattan real estate held firm as subprime lending never infiltrated past the coop and condo boards? That was a crazy time and a once, maybe twice in a lifetime event to take advantage of. Buffett certainly did, you and I did, I wonder who else? Anyone else buy in 2008-2009? Stand and be recognized! Scouts honor now...
Juiceman! You remember the beatings huh? You took some major shots as well. We were a very small bull group when the next depression was "imminent" but we stood firm. Congrats to you as well.
stevef, the man who bought low and took a beating on this board for it. Now, laughing all the way to the bank. Congrats!
Man that turnaround was fast....fastest I've ever seen.
Yup. I was one of the nay sayers, changed my tune in 2011 as the LIC market continued to show signs of stability; a place people wanted to live and own in. Yes hats off to the clients we worked with that bought there in 2011!
Wow, it seems as if LIC is the hottest part of the LIC-Greenpoint-Williamsburg area.
19 days on the market on average! Wow. Hats off to all the folks that bought 4-5 years ago when many on this board said the neighborhood would never take off. http://streeteasy.com/nyc/market/reports?utm_medium=email&se_id=1009311&utm_source=marketing_email&utm_campaign=1031_Marketing_Email
"But you told me to look at the streeteasy condo/coop index which takes its data from hundreds of sales at all price levels, and when it didn't fit your thesis, you decided its not a good indicator."
No. My statement now is consistent with my statement weeks ago. And I wrote about this long ago on UD as well. The SE Index in times of volatility underestimates market price action. Period. Just like it underestimates the % reflation from trough to peak, it underestimates the % decline from peak to trough. At the end of the day, who cares about averages. Its useless. How does it help us today. It doesnt. Every building is its local marketplace, and in an ifefficient/illiquid market like Manhattan real estate, all that matters is the sellers need/motivations to sell and the bids that the market will produce. At the most granular level, averages do not help buyers devise a bidding strategy or a seller properly price an apartment.
urban: Ive read your stuff for years and respect it. and I agree that in certain segments the damage was substantially more than 20-25%. But you told me to look at the streeteasy condo/coop index which takes its data from hundreds of sales at all price levels, and when it didn't fit your thesis, you decided its not a good indicator. the truth is that there were very relatively few deals done at the trough because if you didn't need to sell you weren't selling, but of the deals that did get done, the average was down 20-25%. Your mileage of course, may vary.
@bf - was out of country but oops! Your right, I was thinking trough to peak. Still, the one thing the SE Index very much underestimates is market price action in extreme volatility. I was in the field at that time and experienced the destruction starting in late late 2008 and bottoming in early 2009. Some fearless buyers bailed out a few lucky sellers in Sep/Oct 2008 b4 the destruction was really evident -- I remember blogging about it and although lehman failed and stocks/credit were in the process of rolling over, brokers & consumers still did not yet see just how bad it was (until early 2009 when desperate sellers kept lowering prices and products still werent moving).
It was a price point specific time as credit markets shut down. What I mean is, the high end was way more hurt than the studios and 1br market as both bids and financing for anything 2M was non existent. So imho, the peak to trough from mid 2007 peak to early 2009 bottom was prob more like these approximations:
<1M: -27% to 30% from peak
1-2M: -30% to 33% from peak
2-5M: -33% to 36% from peak
5M : -36% or more in some cases from peak
Going back into time and place, these approximations depict deals signed into contract around the feb/march 2009 time period. That was definitely the period of highest fear and the lowest deal activity we had from the crisis. I recall classic 7s on park ave with views trading at 37 to 40% discounts in feb/march and brokers talking about coop board rejections due to price alone. I had a deal on E87 that was rejected on price, my only board turndown ever. 1 month later I got 8% more from a less qualified buyer and poof, board approval. Median sales trends wont capture the intensity of the cliff dive, nor the reflation; I would guess the SE Index prob captures 65-70% or so of it. Just lack of data I guess and the difficulty in creating a price action model for this market where buy side perceptions/bids are real time but sales data/comps are lagging.
Thats why I posted that W81st street COMPS thread where he goes over specific cases which to me is the most interesting way to get a feel for this markets changes over time.
Steve is retired in Florida.
Would like to hear thoughts on how tough this board is? Thank you.
Can anyone confirm bedbugs in this building?? Thinking of going to an open house here this weekend, but don't even want to go inside if there is a bedbug problem...
Why the mass exodus from this building ? Not bedbugs again?
I would add that there can be damage done by listing for 30-60 days and not getting to contract, especially in this fast moving market. Perhaps a cliche, but the term "stale listing" is relevant and powerful. If you price incorrectly, don't reach your market and essentially stumble out of the gate; the world will know, it will be visible to all on SE. If you do go it alone, make sure you get it right!
Some of you know me as a photographer but most of you don't know I'm also a licensed agent.
However, I got my license out of necessity , not because I wanted to be a real estate agent. When I took over my family's RE portfolio, I fired every broker/agent because they were terrible and brought nothing to the table. If an agent can't bring something of value, what's the point?
OTOH, there are those who believe only agents are clueless, that "The client is always right". I beg to differ. There are owners I refuse to work with because they are just as bad as many agents.
Bottom line is that real estate is a huge investment. This isn't buying/selling a TV on Craigslist. I understand why an owner wants to go FSBO (who wouldn't want to save 4-6%?). But again, I value my time more than anything (especially since I'm 50 yrs old). I'd rather shoot a gorgeous sunrise in Montauk than deal with a nightmare real estate transaction.
Good Luck with your sale Mr_LP. Hope you have a smooth, low stress experience.
Kudos to vslse65 and csn for the wise words. I'm a real estate agent and I can tell you a co-op transaction is complicated and time-consuming. By all means, go with your gut regarding the sale of your apt, but I think you should invite an agent or two over to at least get a good idea of the state of the market and price opinions as part of your decision-making process. Ask them directly what they can offer that makes their services of value to you. The transaction is intricate to maneuver and buyers today are highly educated as to what to "look for" when considering a purchase. They will have questions regarding every aspect of your building. Be well prepared with answers to queries that run the gamut -- from amenities to zoo animals kept as pets. As other have mentioned earlier, a seasoned co-op attorney is a must. So is a thick skin and the ability look at this sale as strictly a business transaction.
Why would you NOT go with a broker? That makes no sense. Find one that is familiar with your building and your board as well as your neighborhood. You'll be much better off
Or at least the right AGENT could make the difference between your getting approved within two weeks or four months, if the package isn't thorough and complete.
Sponsor doesn't own any of the units except the one in which he lives
I too am interested in this building so any input would be appreciated. Thx!
I just read thru the entire thread from 2007. Current or former owners: can you please provide feedback on your experiences living here? Is the building financially sound? Does the sponsor own too high a percentage of the units? Any help would be greatly appreciated. THanks
Note to 5 months ago:
Now that the City has gotten into the business of creating from whole cloth and immediately selling air rights (vs. transfer of existing air rights, as has been going on for some years), don't assume that a shrimpy little building that already sold its rights away can't be ripped down and replaced with more dreary placeholders for the dirty money of oligarchs and the like. Plus the usual TFBs, of course.
Coy Wolf, the only way that you or anyone will be able to tell is if you hire an architect to conduct a zoning analysis. Anyone who think they know is kidding themselves
Wow. Thanks so much NWT, and Ali!
I don't really work the East side (and wouldn't comment on whether views are protected if I did -- that's a job for lawyers) but it's worth pointing out that of course Maison East has a D-line. On the lower floors, they seem to be 1-BRs; on the upper floors, a small Jr. 4.
The developers of 1438 bought the air rights from 1430. 1430 can't be built higher than it already is. That's why those higher-floor E-line glass rooms cantilever over 1430.
Then you have a whole block-front to the south, from 81st to 80th, of old tenements.
Check the Department of Buildings for each one. The site will say whether it's landmarked. (I'm pretty sure none of them are.) Then check ACRIS for the ownership of each one. They'll probably be different LLCs, so see whether they have addresses in common, or anything to indicate whether one underlying entity has been buying them up. Also check the addresses on the tax bills.
Big developers like the Brodskys don't buy shitbox tenements to sit on them forever, collecting retail rents from thrift stores.
On the other hand, you won't be paying for an unprotected view, and you could be dead and gone by the time the developer accumulates the block-front.
You could also get lucky. E.g., a low building across the street from me, allowing a river view, got landmarked just when its owner was looking to sell for redevelopment. Or look at those tenements on First between 64th and 65th that just got landmarked. Nobody imagined they ever would be, but there're always surprises.
Elle, thanks so much for your comments. I do think that there are many unique units in the building that will find the particular buyers suited to them. I especially like the one bedroom units. They are fantastic and remind me of Old New York.
The maisonette is certainly unique, but it will take an unusual buyer to pay more than the purchase price from the sponsor.
10BE has the potential to be an awkward combination given the unusual layout. I'm not sure that many buyers will want to go to the trouble, when there are so many combinations that are much more natural than this one.
I appreciate the information on the Board requirements. They seem reasonable.
On the maintenance point, I dont think it is terribly high (especially when compared against the sister building across the street). 75% of the maintenance costs are fixed in the form of RE taxes and Labor. The other variables are tightly controlled. The 1 bedrooms on the market now have around $2200/month maintenance which I think is not unreasonable for a pre-war doorman building on the UES. Also bear in mind this building has NO mortgage
Yes there are a high # on the market. One is in contract. Two are total fixer uppers (the 2nd floor and 10th floor triplex). The Maisonette is very unique, though right now I think it is priced appropriatly I think the 10th floor combo really has the most potential to be something special. I think it is just coincidence. If you looked 12 months ago you would have found 1-2 units listing which is average for any given time. These are unique units
The board is reasonable right and not overally difficult. There needs to be very solid liquidity post closing and the ability to service fixed maintenance/mortgage costs for many years should income deteriorate. I think 2-3x assets post close is a good ballpark
Ella - Could you briefly explain why the maintenance is so high in the building? High level of service? Few units? Recent upgrades?
There are a number of units in the building on the market, which is unusual given the tight inventory. Does it have anything to do with the difficulty of the board? Is it possible to broadly outline post-closing financial requirements from the board's perspective?
Amity95 - I live in this building and used to be on the board. If you have further questions I can help. Not sure if it is too late
Wow, this is worse than a meltdown because a toilet seat is broken.
Also last my computer and cell have hacked at least interesting give credit just felonies
I contacted x amounts goverment agenies so now I receiving death threats last time I stopped at the local percent to report the death threats they where not to helpful or friendly so get interesting now keep you up dated at least it is not boring Good Night Thank You
Winter is coming I believe the building is becoming unsafe I put the blame with Grogan and ass John and Tim Grogan and the board who retained the grogans m at beekman That being said we will have to leave to court system this is becoming a labor of love and a matter of honor I believe life changing event. Thank you good night
I would really be careful and suggest getting your own inspection for peace of mind.
Our previous apartment had ongoing problems even though the owner repeatedly tried to argue that it was - oh - because of all sorts of BS including 1. my houseplant (I had one orchid) 2. our books 3. an old leak from years before that had since been fixed (not true at all - it leaked badly throughout our entire stay there 4. mold was now dead and couldn't hurt anything when it was dry and on and on. Plenty of health issues and aggro - get it checked.
That explanation sounds odd. There would have to be moisture in the air (presumably from a leak) for mold to form. Temperature alone wouldn't be enough to create the level of severity you describe.
I would definitely consult an environmental remediation specialist and include language in your contract about seller and management's knowledge of the situation so that you have all the information available. Would they ever provide you with the original reports from the incident?
Overheating alone would leave the air bone-dry, so no mold, just nosebleeds, headaches and nonstop colds. I'm guessing that said tenant then over-humidified the overheated apartment, resulting in heavy condensation, and thus mold.
In any event, in coops any leaks from exterior walls or from in-wall plumbing would be their responsibility, and their insurance would generally cover damage to your apartment and belongings.
How much concern should one have in looking at an apartment that had mold remediation performed 6 years ago?
It appears that they used a reputedly company. We're planning on using our own home inspector for extra peace of mind.
The issue was in several rooms, but it seems to be remedied now.
The management's explanation for the cause was that the tenant at the time kept her radiators at an unreasonably high temperature. I'm not sure if I buy that or not, because I thought mold was usually related to an actual water leak .
Thanks for any advice / insight. We don't have any experience with this issue.
What new building under construction on the UES has a little dispute going on with the Architect vs. the concrete guys?
The construction appears to be on hold until remedies are addressed.
@Crescent22.. Care to elaborate?
risky move late in an upcycle
if you go without broker they might be able to pay for your transfer tax. I was offered this althought didnt end up buying one.
But if it's just a condo do own research and go by yourself and get 3% discount which is normally offered to agent.
A buyer's broker with experience in new construction should be very helpful..The commission for a buyers broker is paid by the seller, in this case the developer, sponsor .
Licensed Real Estate Broker since 1987
It's really telling that the Times's rent/buy calculator is basically made or broken on the apartment value growth assumption.
That said, this doesn't look half bad (Apt A1103):
01/09/2009 Previous Sale recorded $1,080,478
09/30/2014 Listing sold $1,550,000
Sale recorded $1,500,000
Looking at this building for a client. Interesting to read these past threads, 1931...sort of missed this call.
And lets not forget your massive leverage on a tanking "investment".
Factor in what a 10% decline does for you!
They don't put anything for the risk factor in.
Point well taken, JohnDoe. I find that oddity in the AMT tax worksheet inexplicable (the 25% reduction in exemption). It makes for a funny-shaped curve when plotting AMT liability against income.
That apartment is lovely. And barely usable by anyone who needs two or more real bedrooms. All the kids in this class ($3 million apartments) have more than 9 feet (if that) to live in.
You could save a million by going for http://streeteasy.com/building/45-east-62-street-new_york/6b and get a better building and location, but there the maintenance is $2K more.
No idea. They're probably looking at sales of other B/C/D -lines in the same building (the A has an extra maids room) and then adding a premium for the renovation.
The two back apartments have fire escapes, but I don't know how much having one outside a window hits the price.
NWT: So if you're comparing this to a large Classic Six (LR Library, DR, Kitchen Maid's, BR1, BR2, tiny BR3) where do you think it'll trade? This seems expensive for a Classic Six on a side street in a 50% down building. What are they using for comps?
It was built as eight rooms. The LR was very small, though, and pretty much useless because of the four doors to foyer, DR, library/4th BR, and hallway. Even now, expanded into what used to be library/4th BR, it's none too large. The kitchen is split in two because of the plumbing for the former maid's bath. I'd compare it to classic sixes, with the tiny BR about the size of an old maid's room.
3H's only exposure is to a little courtyard, while 6E faces the street. Maybe that's part of it.
This building really perplexes me there are two sales in the building with similiar room count and SF unit 6E sells for over 1.5M while unit 3H sells for $925K what is this huge difference in price? Any theories why this happened?
Not at Costco prices...
Sounds like something you can buy at Costco
seems like the building sold very well