45 East 22nd Street
Condo in Flatiron
A relative has the opportunity to begin attending the 7th grade here next fall. What is she in for? What should she know? What should she be think about? What questions should she be asking?
My family knows no one with a kid who has attended and we don't know what the experience will be like. Of course, we know it is said to be a great school, but we don't quite know why. Anything you all have to share would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
Hunter is a good HS. It was just ranked BETTER than Stuvyestant by US News & World Report.
Since when is a bronze medal better than gold?
Me thinks bx sc and Stuyvesant r much better and more well rounded in terms of social aspects of hs. Hunter is too small and not as recognized as those two. But the school has to fit a child. If a child wants to be in a 2000 kid environment and wants lots of opportunities to meet a diverse student body of all socio-economic walks, cool. Some kids r better off not partying till 2 am, taking a final bf 1st period then crashing in sheep's meadow after a upperclassman/underclassman ultimate game.
I'm not sure I understand--likely because I know little of Bx Sci or Stuy. But if a student can go to Hunter for 7th and 8th grade and then attempt to get into Stuy, for example, is there any downside of Hunter? It seems to guarantee a pretty excellent 7th and 8th grade at the very least and offer a great "fall back" if Stuy etc don't work out. Am I missing something?
I think Stuyvesant is the best, but I might be a tiny bit bias being an alumni and all. With that said, I think all three are all great schools. However, keep in mind that Stuy and Bronx don't take 7th graders.
Kyle, if your relative considers Bronx Science at some point, I'd be happy to put you in touch with my husband's cousin who taught there for many years.
Not as well-informed as many on this board, but judging on what I recently read, people will KILL to get their kids into Hunter High School.
This is all very helpful so far. Keep posting! The commute from Brooklyn is going to be a challenge and we're looking for all the reasons it will be worth it--if this is to happen, it'll take quite a few of us to make it work.
I think hunter is great, but many hunter kids don't/can't test into Stuyvesant or bx sc - hehehe-
It's a bit of urban myth that Stuyvesant or bx sc does not have a great arts/English program. In fact mr. Moskowitz and his debate team (back in the days) always produced a nationally ranked debate team second to none. My verbal was in fact higher than my math split in my sats as were many of my peers.
Both Stuyvesant and bx sc have a ton of sports and clubs a kid can be part of and bx sc has that great campus, now Stuyvesant has a now campus as well. Hunter imho has always felt 'anally pinched' to me in terms of allowing kids to have a 'full' high school experince. I rarely met or saw Hunter kids at keg parties in ukranian dance hall or loft parties.
Hunter is a cool stepping stone into one of the science school. The alumni network and reputation is amazing. I've had several friends who say they studied harder and the education was more intense in hs then in college, and for anyone going into an elite ivy, it's the best training ground. All three (hunter/Stuyvesant/b sc) are probably better academically than all private schools. I'd like to say a lot of the private school kids take the science exam or are 'afraid' to take it. Heheheehehe
I have 3 children at Hunter and one at Bronx Science. Hunter is the hardest to get into of the three (Hunter Bronx Science and Stuy) but the best fit for your child is most important part of all. While I would have liked my Bronx Science child to have gone to Hunter so we had them all in one place, Bronx is definitely the best fit for him. We are very happy with both schools. The best thing about Hunter is the quality of the kids. While the teachers are great, it is the kids spurring each other on that make it a great place. My kids all do sports and music and yes, facilities are not great, but they make do. It is worth it. And Hunter kids are out at the parties too, the experience I have with my kids is that Hunter, Stuy, Bronx Sci kids tend to be together more than with the private school crowd. Which I don't think is a bad thing.
I went to St. Uyvesant, but so long ago it seems like a different millenium [I'm really getting on in years], and I'm sure all of these schools evolve or devolve over time.
My take on it remains that the "science" schools are not really so heavily weighted towards math and science in curriculum, teaching excellence, or student interest, but are broadly focused towards academic excellence (plus, lately and unfortunately, playing the Ivy-admissions checklist game). There's no comparable liberal arts public high school with 9th/10th grade admission, so all those kids wind up there, and it all works out.
That said, if your relative thrives on a bit of academic pressure, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend Hunter for now, and even through high school ... I doubt more than one or two of its students miss the cut for Stuy/B.S. anyway, unless they do so deliberately.
The only general downside to Hunter beginning in 7th grade, I imagine, is integrating those newbies with their students who've attended from their fetal days.
Kyle, where did you go to school?
Many political types who have their choice of sending children/grandchildren anywhere they want (and lets face it they do) choose Hunter. It is known as an excellent, challenging, nurturing environment. May not be relevant to today's Hunter but someone I know attended from kindergarten through HS in the 70s-80s and his is one of the most grounded, committed, kind and yes successful, in his own definition--gave up corporate career for academic--people I know.
More to the point,in 2007, someone who could well afford private school and bought their apartment due to its location in an excellent school distance was absolutely overjoyed when his daughter was accepted to Hunter even though it meant committing to a schlepp.
i attened hunter high school 7th - 12th grade as did one of my sisters. my other sister attended stuyvesant (didnt get into hunter) and my brother attended bronx science (didnt get into hunter).
overall it was a great experience for me and my sister. we had lots of friends at both stuyvesant (we had sports, math team and chess rivalries with them) and socialized with friends at stuvesant as well as some of the private schools located around hunter.
i agree with jackny - there are some great techers at hunter and some good facilities / some bad (although being able to go the central park for gym and the met for art class are nice) but it's the students that make it special. and as strong as hunter is in the humanities it always seems to have a very very strong math / science group of students gravitating to a particular group of teachers. several of us were able to take math classes at columbia as part of our later year education at least back in the day. incidently, everyone at hunter had the option to go to college after the 11th grade or stay to work on independent projects / take additional ap classes etc for 12th grade. it is technically an idependent school - not governed by the board of education but by the board of higher education - it was set-up years ago as an experimental school as part of hunter college.
hunter probably isnt for all - but it was great for my sister and me and started life long friendships with some of the most diverse, interesting, well rounded and smart people we have ever known. sometimes hunter doesnt show up on the 'lists' due to its independendence/non board of ed status - or its smaller size per class - but in terms of percentages, rest assured that it generally outperforms every school in the city with an occasional drop to second or third place.
i think it was last week's ny magazine article that, in discussing primarily the absurdity of getting into hunter elemntary and how silly iq tests are for little kids - mentioned that nearly half of hunter's graduating class goes to an ivy league (certainly not the only test of sucess and maybe not even a good one) - far higher than any otehr school in the city.
and kylewest - my sister's son just got in and would be doing a long commute too - perhaps my nephew will end up being friends with your relative...
I think it's worth noting the difference in who usually makes the decision on choice of school (parents vs. kids decision):
How many 6th graders want to attend or know about Hunter?
8th and 9th graders taking the exam for Stuy and Bronx know what they are getting into.
Yes, exactly, and that's why I think Hunter students who don't get into Stuy/B.S. are simply managing their parents.
Thank you all. I'm going to pass on all your comments to parents of the child. Alanhart, I didn't attend school in NYC but rather attended terrific public schools outside the city. College was New England small liberal arts. I certainly know many people from my college years who attended NYC's private schools, Stuyvesant, Bx Sci, Bklyn Tech, etc. but somehow didn't know many Hunter grads and this was all back in the 80s so impressions are dated. Hunter has a day where accepted potential students can come visit next week so that will be important.
> Hunter is a good HS. It was just ranked BETTER than Stuvyestant by US News & World Report.
Because it factors in socio-economic factors and gets it WRONG.
Stuy sends a LOT more kids to the top schools, does much better at Westinghouse, etc.
> Since when is a bronze medal better than gold?
Ha, I love it! Only in alpo's world.
"w67th, i'll defer to your knowledge here. but isn't hunter a better choice than bx sc and stuy for a kid who is not as math/science oriented? the hunter people i know tended to be more history/english sorts. as such, if true, it might be a better choice for some kids."
Nope, this is a mistake. ultimately, its the student body that makes the school.
And the Stuy exam actually weights English scores HIGHER. The writing/artsy kid scene is HUGE at Stuy. They win tons of awards and such there, too. If you want the top math, sure. But they also have a fantastic english scene as well.
Hell, remember, Frank McCourt came from Stuy.
"Yes, exactly, and that's why I think Hunter students who don't get into Stuy/B.S. are simply managing their parents."
Actually, the real reason is that many of the Hunter kids don't actually belong at Hunter anymore, let alone Stuy.
The stats show that at age 6 or so, only 25% of kids testing genius will test it again at age 18. It improves slightly with age, but the fact is, it is less accurate the arlier you get the kids.
Meaning tons of kids who enter 9th at Hunter would not be able to get in if they took the tests again.
Stuy gets a smarter bunch because EVERYONE has to pass the test at the age its more accurate.
"Many political types who have their choice of sending children/grandchildren anywhere they want (and lets face it they do) choose Hunter"
Only because you can't start kids at Stuy in kindergarten (and the other schools are so bad).
This is just awful logic.
a very samll percentage of hunter high school actually comes from the elementary school - so the entering class is tested in 6th grade.
not sure what that bronze medal hunter science school is but i dont believe it's the hunter being discussed - hunter is not grades 9-12 nor is it located on the westside of manhattan on amterdam. this appears to be a different school. the hunter being discussed doesn't show up in many rankings due to it not being part of the boaard of ed.
in terms of percentages, hunter is generally number 1 in the city in merit semi finalists, finalists, etc - but its smaller sized class also keep it off of many of the lists as it has fewer nominal amounts in several categories vs the other larger strong schools like stuyvesant. and incidently, the not so math science oriented hunter has produced westinghouse winners and several members of the us math team (starts withe the AHSME) over the years...
And Hunter just toasted the much larger Stuyvesant & the rest of the city in the NY City Chess championships. No knock to Stuyvesant's long stellar well earned history and performance in math science chess etc - but just an indication of things not being so black and white.
somewhereelse: "Frank McCourt came from Stuy."
Just to clarify, Frank McCourt was a teacher there, not a student.
I was fortunate to have him as my creative writing teacher when my regular teacher was out (maturnity leave I think). I believe he was actually retired at that point. It was a fun class. We even learn a couple of Irish songs and he read excerpts from the book he was working on, Angela's Ashes.
Spiderman, you're right. It does appear to be a different school.
Spidey. Note all the adulation on hunter is academic. How many Nobel prize winners does it have? Fwiw, bx sc And Stuyvesant always kicks hunter in the sports arena. Does hunter even have a swim team? I know their fencing team sucked. Fwiw stuyvesant and science produced some excellent national calibre athletes.
Look all schools have a normal curve, the top 20% of stuyvesant/science can go toe to toe with hunter's student body. And yes most of the Stuyvesant/science made an 'adult' decision to take the exam and enroll whereas, it has been my experience hunter kids always felt a little coddled.
So in closing, if you want a large and diverse student body, the opportunity to enjoy the social aspects of the city, have a 'normal' hs experience of trying out for teams, going to a prom, making out with some hot chicks, and being challenged academically, then go science school route. If you want a hard core can't burn off steam masturbating till college kid, well hunter's waiting for you.
> but somehow didn't know many Hunter grads
I had 20 high school classmates with me my freshman year at Yale. I believe the Hunter number was 0.
I think anyone who gets a choice among any of Sty, Hunter and/or BS is in great shape!
Assuming they are willing to commit to academic rigor. Personally back in the stone age I was rejected by all three (my parents weren't crazy about BS because of the commute but would have gladly dealt with it if they had the option). I wouldn't have lasted a semester because I was much more interested in "sex, drugs and rock and roll and what was happening on corner of 6th ave and 11th street" than anything that went on in a classroom. Maybe today kids don't have as much leeway to f-up as we did but it seems to me that all of these schools still require kids to not only be smart but have discipline if they are going to succeed.
But as I say, making a choice among them is a problem one could only hope and pray for!
lizyank, agree with you 100%
One more thing to recommend the "brainiac" schools if one has the opportunity. At this point they are wonderfully diverse both ethnically and by socioeconomic status. Attendance at Sty or BS (I don't know about Hunter) assures that middle/upper middle class kids will be interacting with immigrants from all over and kids from disadvantaged backgrounds as peers, and sometimes as superiors within class rankings, not just as nannies, maintenance people or bus drivers. Since the kids at these schools may be among the future leaders, the importance of exposure to different types of people is really critical.
Liz, did you buy your drugs locally, or opt (as so many around town did) to go to Stuyvesant to buy them from an enterprising young student?
Another example of how Stuy isn't so hyperfocused on math & science is how many prominent trained liars went there: Jimmy Cagney, Tim Robbins, and Lucy Liu among them.
If I recall correctly, the Wikipedia has extensive lists of prominent graduates (by trade) for each of the high schools being discussed here, but I'm too lazy to look them up. (Admission to a good high school is no indication of an industrious nature ... maybe cultural bias or something else.)
Spidey. So let me get this straight, half of the senior class disappears? Wow that must make for a sad and lonely prom. Did you go to the prom with your sister? ; )
no idea what hunter sports are like today but you are right that they were/are far from strong. that said, all the major sports except football existed - and aside from producing a few basteball players who played in college we had a junior olympic swimmer my year, a 4:25 miler and a third baseman that went on to start during some pretty good division 1 years at Princeton...
again - a little out of touch with how ' hot ' the student body is now a days - but there certainly were plenty of normal kids as well as the young working models and actors/actresses of stage and movies...
as i mentioned, i had and still have plenty of stuyvesant educated friends (and a sister) and many of them are pretty accomplished personally/professionally. It's just not so black and white that the students at one vs the other get a superior anything - just different.
w67: very very few decide to leave for college early - senior year is a great time at hunter. although i didnt go to my prom with my sister it was someone pretty funny when i look back all these years later - someone who has gone on to become fairly famous but that's a whole other story...
Our official high school prom was at Hef's Disco and Party Room at the New York Playboy Club -- and of course the facts that the drinking age then was a fully-unenforced 18, and that the event was set up as full-club access with private-party door control at Hef's Disco and Party Room, made for some extra-good stories.
It's one of my great regrets in life that I had too much attitude to attend a senior prom, least of all my own, because now I find myself without full bragging rights.
Is basteball some sort of competitive home economics sport?
Spiderman27, whole other stories are made to be told here. Proceed, and name names.
obviously you missed out on a superior high school education if you don't even know what basteball is :)
The Hunter Basketball team just won it's 3rd League title in the last 3 years. The baseball team has been consistently strong as well, despite limited facilities. The kids make it happen.
I have found Hunter to be very strong in Math/ Science as well as humanities and Stuy/ Bx Science strong in humanities as well as Math/ Science. Alanhart described it well as a focus on academic excellence. If a child is prepared to work hard, it is difficult not to be enthusiastic about attending any of these three. And there are a few other public top schools in the city as well, I just do not have the first hand knowledge to talk about them.
I understand Townsend Harris in Queens may be close this level.
Alan, we bought our drugs from sources far removed from any place of academic nature, financed in large part but having sold catnip to kids from Long Island (as well as some from uptown, sorry) in Washington Square park. The key was to make sure purchases retail and wholesale were made without the knowledge of the neighborhood "elders" (think Uncle Junior) who took a very dim view of area kids involved in such indulgences.
"Another example of how Stuy isn't so hyperfocused on math & science is how many prominent trained liars went there: Jimmy Cagney, Tim Robbins, and Lucy Liu among them."
Paul Reiser. Thelonius Monk. One of the Beastie Boys (and Lucious Jackson). There is a long list of notable writers, although I don't know writers so well.
The music program is fantastic. I also forgot about that. Tons of notable music alumni.
But back to movies/tv... Ben Gazzara, Ron Silver, Martin Brest, Robert Alda, Thomas Calabro (the dude from Melrose Place!) They were always big on the acting front.
"Look all schools have a normal curve, the top 20% of stuyvesant/science can go toe to toe with hunter's student body."
I don't think the top 20% of Hunter can even go toe to toe with the top 20% of Stuy. Again, see who goes to Harvard/Yale/Princeton/MIT. Stuyvesant dwarfs hunter there, and I belive its even beyond the size proportions (certainly was my year).
btw, if we wan to go by %s, on the WSJ admission to the top 8 colleges as a % of student body, note that Collegiate and Brearley are nearly TWICE as high as Hunter. Its not even close.
In fact, Collegiate, Brearley, Chapin, and Trinity get a larger % of their kids into the top 10 schools than Hunter. St. Anne's is basically tied (but I think this was an off year, they're normally tops). In total, Hunter only got 24 kids in, which isn't particularly good given we're talking about 8 top schools. Stuy got nearly 3x as many in, and it gets harder with each one.
BTW, they also used to publish SATs by high school. Regis and Stuy were always neck and neck, Hunter wasn't...
somewhereelse, you are coming across as kind of creepy vested in the ranking of a high school. Not to get too carried away, but I don't think there's any question Hunter is pretty excellent for a student staying in the public school system. Comparing it to Chapin just strikes me as silly. Your kid gets a very different view of the world at Dalton or Chapin than a free public school.
And the metric you site is bizarre in terms of "top 8 schools." Top 8 defined how? Are you including Williams College or Amherst or Swarthmore in that "top 8" even though these 3 have ranked as the top 3 liberal arts colleges in the country pretty much every year for the last 30 years? I'm not so sure measuring how many kids get into Cornell is a better measure than asking how many go to these Little Ivies.
My point is you're getting pretty strident here and I'm not sure why.
> And the metric you site is bizarre in terms of "top 8 schools."
Tell WSJ they're bizarre. I'm just sharing their stat.
But Williams and Swarthmore were included in that 8...
Funny because I was just going to say the same of you.
Somewhere else, I don't know where you are getting your information but for instance, for early admission results THIS YEAR Hunter has had 7 kids accepted at Yale. Out of a graduation class of 200 students. Stanford University has accepted 3 students from Hunter early admission, there have been none from either Stuy or Bronx. I am a big fan of Stuy and have one of my kids at Bronx, but I am just giving these facts because I don't understand your putting down of a very fine school. Literally already 30% have had acceptances just from early admission at Brown, Penn, Dartmouth etc. By the time 'regular acceptance' come through, it is likely that 50% of the class of 2010 will have been accepted at the 'top colleges.' Which I would imagine would translate to the 'top 20% of Hunter going toe to toe'to with any school in the country.
> I don't understand your putting down of a very fine school
I don't understand where you think I "put down" a school....
"Which I would imagine would translate to the 'top 20% of Hunter going toe to toe'to with any school in the country."
That wasn't the comparison, someone tried to compare it to the top 20% of Stuy. Which, in my day, would have been more like 100%, not 50% (between Harvard/Yale/Princeton/MIT alone, there were 100).
> Brown, Penn, Dartmouth
BTW, Brown, Penn, Dartmouth weren't on the 8 list, they're a signficant step down according to most of the rankings. If you threw Cornell in that list, which is the same in my book, I remember 50-60 Cornell acceptances my year when they published the stat (it was my safety school).
kylewest hunter is a GREAT school. I went to college with a few Hunter kids and they thought it was super easy compared to Hunter. I have about a dozen friends whose super smart kids did not get in so congrats. It is much better than Bx Sc and Sty. Smaller in this case is better. Ask what is the average SAT score in the school and you will be blown away. I have nothing nice to say about Bx Sc and STY and literally everyone I know who went there had a really hard time getting into their first choice college b/c of the competition within the school. If graduating class has 500 kids Harvard will still take 2-3. Smaller class is better percentage wise.
bela, wow, you really know nothing. you make big claims, with pretty much no facts. The 1 or 2 "facts" you have are wrong.
> If graduating class has 500 kids Harvard will still take 2-3
Not if you are Stuy....
> Ask what is the average SAT score in the school and you will be blown away.
Again, Stuy's was higher last time they posted these.
Once again, not to swift with the facts...
There are also high schools in Nebraska that get folks into good schools because they have to fill the quota. If your goals is to maximize your chances of getting in, go to nebraska. Or deep springs. Or wherever there is a shortage.
But are you getting the best education?
The competition at Stuy is part of what makes it so great. If you can't hack it, you can't hack it. Maybe Stuy isn't for you. Maybe Harvard isn't for you, either.
But the success of Stuy folks in life is a great testament to its success.
And the competition is how you get there.
If being pushed to work hard and "only" making Cornell is not a short straw. If anything, I think its better for the kid. Not everyone can be tops everywhere. But if your goal is to get to the top as easy as possible (of course its not really the top then) then maybe Nebraska/Hunter are for you.
somewhereelse, come on now, a little friendly rivalry is one thing, but you're being a little silly. Of course Hunter is an excellent school.
somewhereelse, it is odd for an adult to be so vested in a discussion like this. you're still sounding so strident. why is that?
He's just sorry he didn't get to go to Hef's Disco and Party Room for his senior prom. That's all.
Hmm, okay... Well, there's absolutely nothing to lose by going to Hunter for 7th and 8th grade--if it's not the right place for your relative, then the specialized HS test is easy enough to take at the end of 8th grade.
But really, I think it's sort of absurd to have this huge an argument about the test scores and college admissions of Hunter vs. Stuy vs. Bronx Sci... That shouldn't be the thing that matters. First, it's incredibly difficult to compare schools as different as Hunter and Stuy. They're completely different sizes, any vaguely relevant statistics don't match up. But really, that shouldn't be the important part. These "top schools" are very narrowly defined, as someone above said. The Ivies are not the only good schools. Hunter and Stuy kids get into absolutely fantastic colleges, it's just that not all of them are Ivies, and so not counted into the statistics. There's absolutely no reason to think that Hunter will hurt this kid's chances of getting into a great school--and more importantly, a school they want to go to and ARE PREPARED FOR. That, I think, is the biggest selling point of Hunter, from a college-y perspective.
But I'd rather answer the original question--what should she know/be prepared for?
I'm currently a senior at Hunter, and I've absolutely loved it. It's the students that make it so fantastic--being surrounded by smart kids after the hell of neighborhood middle school was such a relief for me, and for all of my friends as well. (Very few students come in from the elementary school, for those complaining about the inaccuracy of the elementary admissions test. It's not as if they "dilute" the intelligence of the student body in any way.) In the later grades, it occasionally feels like a pressure cooker, but Hunter does a lot to make sure that students' transitions in are smooth. Still, she has to be prepared to work. No more coasting, no more being the smartest kid in the class--but it's okay, because for the most part, the teachers make you WANT to work. Still, it can be jarring if you're not ready for it.
That's really the best advice I can give for 7th and 8th grade at Hunter. 9-12 is its own challenge (though totally worth it, in my opinion), but by that time, your relative will likely have found some upper-termer friends to ask for guidance about that. (Probably my parting bit of wisdom to her would be: don't be afraid of upper-termers, because they're generally pretty nice, and don't be afraid to ask for help if you need it. The Hunter community is very supportive!) Best of luck to you and your relative!
facts: 90% of applicants to specialized HS's applied to HCHS and didn't get accepted. almost none of those accepted decline to attend HCHS and ultimately attend a specialized HS. almost no HCHS students leave HCHS to attend specialized HS's after 8th grade. Simply put, HCHS gets first dibs on the city brain trust--sorry somewhere, you seem to have an investment youre trying to spin
and the specialized HS's are all great places and so is HCHS---true gem assets of NYC that should be better attended to by our system---
for applicants: HCHS and the specialized HS's are not optimal for all kids--if economics allow many kids will do better in a private, better-resourced environment--lotta work at these school to keep the kids top-notc---privates get more from class time and greater hands on attention
important re acceptances at HCHS and the specialized vs private: way fewer legacy/development candidates than at private schools--also, those that can't get significant scholarships at ivies etc, who aim for an academic career, are counseled to attend cheaper state schools and save their money for grad schools---example daivd bauer, HCHS winner of Intel in ibelieve 2006: one of the brightest young preople of his generation, hands down, attends ccny---and apparently thriving there
somewhere, you should take your dogma elsewhere
see spiderman27's post for his family's illumination of HCHS "first dibs"
I'm a Harrisite (an alumna from Townsend Harris). The total student body hovers around 1000 so it lends itself to a closer, tighter-knit community.
Despite the small size and short history, we can boast our share of nobel laureates, pulitzer prize winners and Westinghouse/Intel finalist among other distinctions. A school to consider for a balanced curriculum between math/science and humanities.
> facts: 90% of applicants to specialized HS's applied to HCHS and didn't get accepted.
Thats a made up stat.
Even if it were right, it stills says Hunter is EASIER to get into... because FAR LESS than 10% of applicants make Stuy.
"almost no HCHS students leave HCHS to attend specialized HS's after 8th grade. Simply put, HCHS gets first dibs on the city brain trust--sorry somewhere, you seem to have an investment youre trying to spin"
This is nonsensical. Clearly you didn't go to Stuy. ;-)
There are quite a bit of very good schools that folks want to finish, which means 8th grade. I went to one of them. NOBODY applied to Hunter. ZERO. Half the class applied to the specialized. Only 2 made stuy (and both ended up at ivies).
Hunter is missing out on all the kids who want to finish 8th grade at current schools.
> almost no HCHS students leave HCHS to attend specialized HS's after 8th grade
Few leave Baruch to go to Harvard, too. Of course, how many actually get in>
face it somewhere--you got declined at Hunter--either based on your non-qualification to take the HCHS test or your failure to test well enough to get in--you would have gone if you'd been able to get in in, and not gone to stuy--so you settled for stuy 2 years later--thus the chip on your shoulder
rephrase (unnecessary for those who understand the process): 90% of specialized applicants were either declined by HCHS or didnt qualify to take the HCHS test (based on cutoff for 6th Grade Standardized Tests--the didnt qualify part probably explains why NOBODY at your school applied to HCHS--a point reinforced by tha fact the only 2 got into STUY--what school was that from whence you launched into your beloved STUY?
past 4 years total of 7 kids moved to specialized HS's from HCHS--5 to stuy
clearly you went to stuy--i went to neither stuy nor hchs--
and it must be the ivy part that has provided the intellectual foundation for all that you accomplish endlessly here on streeteasy---youve been quite successful with all this---very impressive
In the 1940s, when my mom and aunt went to Hunter, kids from all over the city tested in, and it was a great school because it took the best of the best. When my friends went in the 1980s, they said it provided with a great broad education without many of the social challenges of the top-tier privates. I understand that today, diversity is a challenge, and that the facilities are older, but I'd still say it's one of the top schools in the city.
there was a recent article in NY Mag where they talked about current day hunter..
"face it somewhere--you got declined at Hunter--either based on your non-qualification to take the HCHS test or your failure to test well enough to get "
Wow, if this is all you have - personal attacks - I guess we all know you lost the argument!
> the didnt qualify part probably explains why NOBODY at your school applied to HCHS
Nope... TRY AGAIN!
Sorry, you're wrong, chip.
> thus the chip on your shoulder
if only 2 from your school got into stuy, clearly very few would have qualified to even take the hchs admit test, let alone get in
and no personal attack, just a safe bet that you either were not qualified to apply to HCHS based on your 6th grade standardized test results, or that you applied and were not accepted
no chip re stuy--awesome place
stuff like your representation that hchs is analagous to baruch with stuy harvard, indicates your chip--which reinforces the statistically likely case that you couldnt go to hchs
done with you--got work to do--pls continue to bask on se in the glory of your stuy ivy pedigree--its very entertaining
"90% of specialized applicants were either declined by HCHS or didnt qualify to take the HCHS test (based on cutoff for 6th Grade Standardized Tests--"
Again, EVEN less of the pool made Stuy! THe hunter cutoff is easier!
somewhereelse: why are you engaging in this childishness of arguing your high school (which was some place you have moved beyond many, many years I ago I gather) is better than another great school? It isn't informing this thread in any meaningful way. "I went there and it is SO much better " is kind of embarrassing for an adult to be writing.
I'm telling you: http://tinyurl.com/yznhx82
"if only 2 from your school got into stuy, clearly very few would have qualified to even take the hchs admit test, let alone get in"
The folks who qualified just... uh, get this... didn't apply. Sorry to burst your bubble.
"and no personal attack, just a safe bet that you either were not qualified to apply to HCHS based on your 6th grade standardized test results, or that you applied and were not accepted"
You can keep repeating yourself, but, wrong again!
Why are you trying SO HARD to tell me what I qualified for and didn't?
Why such a vested interest?
Why keep repeating lies?
You get rejected by Stuy, too?
> stuff like your representation that hchs is analagous to baruch with stuy harvard, indicates your
> chip--which reinforces the statistically likely case that you couldnt go to hchs
Again, you can keep claiming it over... and over... and over again.
But you were wrong before, and wrong now.
> done with you--got work to do
Yes, thats why you keep posting about me here.. and on at least 2 other threads (about this topic).
Yes, so done... talk about a chip!
> --pls continue to bask on se in the glory of your stuy ivy pedigree--its very entertaining
Yes, I can see you are "done"! I get it.
Clearly you have some sort of inferiority complex, a need to knock others down.
You got denied from the ivies, too!??!?
btw, kyle, if you have such a problem with the comparison, perhaps you should comment on the multiple posts that actually started it... and kept it going. It wasn't my argument...
Swe is correct. Most kids that applied to Stuyvesant never even tested for hunter. Again I will point out hunter is more 'parent' driven and as such the student body is 'diff'.
A 'normal' parent would not want to split his kid from a 'happy' middle school where the kid has his friends from 1st grade. And a 'normal' kid would protest any such change. I got honor/tested full tuition to a boarding school, refused to GO. Physically refused to leave my middle school. High school was a different matter as my entire class testing and moving around.
Fwiw even within the science exams the top 30 students are 'segregated' into honors at the get go. So I'd bet $ that my scores would've kicked any hunter geeker. But yes, like in all aspects of life there is indeed a 'normal' curve and 'luck' involved in love/life/education.
a. My mother went to Hunter.
b. My husband went to Stuyvesant.
c. I like my husband better than I like my mother.
so therefore d. It follows that Stuyvesant is a better school than Hunter.
Can we move on now?
w67, great points. And, I didn't want to talk about my personal situation, but you hit it on the nose for my situation and many others like it who I went to school with.
"High school was a different matter as my entire class testing and moving around. "
Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner!
And stuy was definitely very kid-driven, I will say that. Yes, there were clearly some kids pushed by parents, but distance and size helped, and there was a lot of freedom once you were within the walls....
I think its a good option for middle school, absolutely...
Alpo is the one who brought if off track in 2 ways... 1) started the comparison... and 2) started talking about high school.
maianess is a great ambassador for HCHS. Thank you for your contribution. As maianess said, there's no downside to attending 7th and 8th grades at Hunter.
Kyle, you have your work cut out for you. The kid took the test and now the parents are dithering over the commute from Brooklyn? Was the kid taking care of younger siblings after school? I can't imagine your question, "is it worth it?" coming from Chinese immigrants. It's a matter of values. Your relative is being offered an opportunity for a superior education; that's why s/he took the test. If the family doesn't believe it's worth it, discussions of attending ivy schools are beside the point. Rare is the kid who makes it to an HYP school without family support.
Katie. Thanks for your input. But if you reread my post asking for info, I didn't ask anywhere "is it worth it" as you quote me as saying. We are gathering information that goes beyond the obvious. That is not dithering. And frankly stereotyping every person emigrating to NYC from a country of over a billion people isn't really helpful. I don't think my original post suggests anything other than my family being one that takes education very seriously. We think it important to take the time over the next week to simply gather information and opinions so the guidance we offer and the ultimate decision is informed and based on facts and entered into without unnecessary anxiety on the part of my young relative. I don't think my original post was insulting in any way, but your response reads as insulting and distracts by supposedly responding to issues no one has raised or even suggested.
"Rare is the kid who makes it to an HYP school without family support."
Absolutely... but I've also seen a lot of kids burn out on that exact path because of the wrong type of family "support". I saw quite a few kids, often Asian, who were heavily pushed by their parents while living at home, and the kids were extremely high achievers. Then they got to college, suddenly got to make their own choices, and had trouble adjusting. My graduating year's "most likely to succeed", GPA well above the harvard cutoff, student body president, the guy we thought would rule the world... effectively failed out of Havard. Eventually got his degree, but there was some extra time and a readmittance....
If there is a moral of the story, I guess its that family is super important and super necessary, but I think its more about kindling the fire of desire and drive within the kid himself - so he can go out on his own - rather than just pushing the kid with a stick.
kylewest: "The commute from Brooklyn is going to be a challenge and we're looking for all the reasons it will be worth it--if this is to happen, it'll take quite a few of us to make it work."
That does sounds like you're asking whether 'it is worth it.'
The answer to your question: Yes, it is worth it if the kid wants to go.
Well, Sunday, I think I said "will" and not "if" and there is a difference. Whatever. It doesn't matter. As so many threads on here become at the hands of several of the posters, this one has degenerated into unnecessary acrimony between a few people dominating the posts. My relatives read this thread. FWIW, I offer what one wrote to me a few moments ago:
"[After reading the Streeteasy thread,] I was tempted to keep [my child] at MS XX in [our neighborhood]. I can't stand the whole 'whose better' discussion because those who engage in it almost always omit any focus on the quality or experience of teaching and learning. The focus on measured achievement for bragging rights is what puts me off anyone ever going to Stuyvesant, because it is surrounded by so much of that and filled with kids who buy into it."
Many on here surely got wonderful educations. I can only hope that whatever school my relative goes to will provide not only an outstanding education, but also will provide an environment that nurtures a sense of humility, restraint, thoughtfulness and kindness.
In point of fact, if things haven't changed (and they DON'T!), Stuy kids counterbrag and put on a big show about not caring how well they did on exams and assignments. So not really "filled with kids who buy into it."
kylewest, are you kidding me? You are going to deny that you asked whether the school was worth the commute even after I quoted what you wrote?!
It was a fair question to ask whether it's worth it. You don't have to be defensive about it.
Ok, more answers to your other questions...
We are talking about a school where kids take a tough exam to get in. Therefore of course your relative should expect a competitive and high pressure environment with heavy work load. Some kids thrive in that kind of environment while others will crack. The parents will have the greatest impact on whether the kid grow up to be a balanced individual.
KyleWest: hard to wade through this and glean any wisdom! If your relative is someone bright, who doesn't feel intellectually inspired in their current environment and longs to be in a more challenging environment,Hunter is perfect. I went to Hunter and honestly I don't think it was THAT hard, and I was a pretty lazy student who was always pissed off at my parents for not letting me go to performing arts. I certainly thought it was less difficult than college, and I did not--lets just say-- go to Harvard. Back in my day(late 80's--very early 90's) there was certainly a kind of intellectually elitist attitude, but I don't think that prevents people from growing up into balanced individuals.In a sense, Hunter is more about the kids. Everyone is smart and a good percentage are very focused. I actually didn't find that the teachers were so great, but I may be in the minority there. I think many Hunter graduates feel it was a much more incredible, stimulating and inspiring experience than I found it to be. It's really a school that can be what you make of it. You have all the resources at your disposal and an environment that promotes excellence. But to excell and really get all you can out of the environment it needs to come from inside. Some people would do better in a more nurturing private school environment. I know very little about stuy, and cant comment. Certainly in my day it was absolutely not true that being at Hunter denied you any normal high school interaction. I was as much of a partying shallow teenage idiot and was as social as any of my private school friends. I suppose the top level of brainiac bookworms didn't have a part in that kind of external social life, but then it was still an environment that did not marginilize the obsessive brainiac bookworms so that is nice too. Certainly there is no downside to going for 7th and 8th grade--if it is not a fit, your relative can go elsewhere afterwards. Good luck!
Thanks, Sunday. I've been busy. Kyle clearly said:
"WE'RE LOOKING FOR ALL THE REASONS IT WILL BE WORTH IT -- IF THIS IS TO HAPPEN"
The "IF" part of the statement is the problem. It's not what you say, "my family takes education very seriously" it's what they didn't do. I believe you take it seriously enough to try to convince the parents now. If they were already serious, they would have been gathering information long before the kid took the test; they would already know other parents with kids at HCHS (is there no PTA to contact?) who have long commutes (and maybe even had the kid meet some kids to ride with); and they wouldn't need relatives to post on SE after the fact. You said the issue is the commute. Questioning the commute is a symptom. The issue is commitment to education.
There are many kids who have talent who will not get a great education because the parents don't understand what commitment means or how to act on it. These kids may do well later in life, but they will not have the opportunity – and one which I recognize is a double-edged sword – to attend the most demanding academic institutions. If that's an opportunity these parents want for their kid then, by all means, get caught up on the research. But do recognize the parents are woefully behind the curve on this and the reason they didn't do this before is that is was NOT a priority. It's clear they have not been exposed to the culture. They don't have the benefit of friends or family who went to top schools or have kids in them now to ask for guidance. It's not an insult; many parents don't understand what's involved. The committed parents figured it out early.
The parents now say they are tempted to make a decision based on the tone of a SE discussion board. Another data point. If this is the way they are thinking about it, they still don't get it. As I said, you have your work cut out for you.
Kyle, I rarely post, but I posted here because this is obviously a situation where the kid has ability and the parents never had a plan. If they are turned off by the competition, there are ways to manage that. Keeping the kid at the local MS is like holding him/her back a year; s/he will be less well prepared for high school. The kids who go to Hunter will work harder, develop critical study and writing skills, master more difficult material, and be exposed to a broader swath of interests and ideas while your relative falls behind.
Nothing nurtures a sense of humility better than attending a competitive school. We all know exactly where we fit in on the food chain and we develop a tough skin about others' knowing it too. We learned how to manage competition and face our own limitations and failures.
SWE, I agree, lots of people are already burned out when they get to college. What I liked about being at top schools was the environment. Your friends and rivals push you more than your parents and teachers and you also push yourself. Then the resources, like AP classes, great teachers and accomplished professors, well-equipped labs and studios and funded clubs, are there to support that motivation and effort and broaden your interests.
Kyle, while I am familiar with arguments about "positive stereotypes," I think few would argue that education is not an important VALUE to the Chinese who have self-selected to move to NYC. If you don't believe the disproportionate academic success of these students is a function of their values, what do YOU attribute it to? My statement is no more or less offensive than your relatives' belief the alums on this board represent Stuyvesant students. In any case, there is a list of people willing to make extreme sacrifices to get the opportunity your relative has. Good luck.
Katie--go screw yourself. You sound like a total douche. Go give your pedantic lectures somewhere else. We're having a friendly little conversation on here (except for the other douche-y posters arguing about Stuy as if their self-worth were derived from a high school they went to 25 years ago) and then you come along. You come across as unbelievably abrassive. FWIW, I know perfectly well how to get an Ivy education because I have one. My folks did a pretty good job of guiding us--we all got degrees from top schools. Some of us got a few of them. If this is how you communicate, and these are the kinds of lectures your children have to endure from you, I feel sorry for them, because anyone can change schools, but a kid can't change mothers.
Oh--and Katie, dear, one more thing: you think it is okay to use stereotypes so long as in your opinion they are positive stereotypes? You teach that to your kids? Nice.
Katie, Kyle: perhaps you'd be happier at your local high school.
[That's what they always used to tell me when they wanted to kick me out, but couldn't because I hadn't slugged a teacher. It was a carefully crafted way of saying that they wished I were dead.]
hunter is a wonderful place--i hope this child isnt deprived of this excellent educational opportunity over the douchiness of the uncle
"The focus on measured achievement for bragging rights is what puts me off anyone ever going to Stuyvesant, because it is surrounded by so much of that and filled with kids who buy into it"
Time to leave New York City, I guess. ;-)
You guys are really something. Noone has contributed as much value as kylewest has to this board. He deserves better.
aboutready and nyg: thank you both. Yes, the commute is not emerging as a real issue. There appear to be many options. It really isn't the focus. The environment sounds like it may be a very good fit and it is a move that seems to do nothing but open doors of possibility to all good things. There really aren't any down sides which is really what I guess I was asking for in the OP. Wanted to be sure we weren't missing something obvious, or not so obvious. Looks like we have a pretty good picture and it is an exciting opportunity.
kyle, I'm intrigued. Who are you really?
You say you hope your relative goes to a school which fosters "humility, restraint, thoughtfulness and kindness." Then you call me names and hurl insults for pointing out an inconsistency between words and deeds. What do you truly value?
You now claim to have an ivy education.
"FWIW, I know perfectly well how to get an Ivy education because I have one."
Kyle, are you a lawyer in New York or just posing as one?
Awhile back on SE, you made some legal arguments so outrageously bad, it prompted me to search for Kyle West at http://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/attorney/html/AttorneyWelcome.html. The only result is for Kyle James Westaway, Registration Number 4555751, admitted in 2007. Only Mr. Westaway's resume doesn't feature any ivy league schools. See http://www.linkedin.com/in/kylewestaway
Consider whether the combination of (1) your selection of a confusingly similar screen name, (2) your repeated allusions to being a lawyer, (3) the NY State database of lawyers not showing anyone else with a similar name, (4) the extremely unprofessional behavior you exhibited on this thread, (5) your failure to address the merits of arguments and penchant for invective and exaggeration, (6) your lack of impulse control and apparent inability to foresee the consequences of your actions, and (7) your ground-breaking distinction between "will" and "if," damage the reputation of honest Mr. Westaway who never claimed to have an ivy education.
So, man of mystery, are you Mr. Westaway or are you out to destroy him?
Why would anyone use anything remotely like his real name? Way off course there, Katie.
Saying you're a lawyer and using another lawyer's name is still a problem.