Printed from at 08:58 PM, Jan 19 2017
Talk » Sales » Discussing 'IS Gold Money?'

IS Gold Money?


"By making the announcement, J.P. Morgan is effectively saying gold is as rock solid an investment as triple-A rated Treasurys..."

No, the Bank is simply acknowledging that gold is highly liquid, and that it is widely held among JPM's key clients. The degree to which the Bank considers gold "rock solid" would be reflected in the haircut taken on the collateral, which isn't disclosed. That seems like a pretty basic concept for the Journal to miss.

As for the spelling of "Treasurys", I guess the bond market has its own rules for pluralization. Seems kind of pretentious.

and I guess that house Chase took in 2006 as "collateral" for that 110% loan was "rock solid" as well. one of the more amateurish articles in awhile from WSJ

In 2008 you could have given your mother-in-law as collateral. Many wish they had accepted.

RIght apt_boy. Are homes money? According to the WSJ, houses = money!

ud; u know the answer. "gold is money and nothing else is" JPMorgan.
the bank JPM (as opposed to the man above)is the federal reserve (by far the largest shareholder).and it is in trouble.
it holds massive shorts in gold and silver futures.massive.last month they managed to derail implementation of position limits mandated by the new financial regulations.
it only delayed the giant short squeeze going on (silver up 3%today).
Problem: gold and silver are now in backwardation at both LBMA and Comex. what this means is people will not part from their physical (and they shouldn't). this a new trick from the crooks to get some physical? (i assume the pledge is non allocated). who knows? (they won't get mine).

the debasement of the currencies is accelerating. gold and silver, the real money, are telling you that.

Comment removed.

If Gold isn't money, why do central banks hold it? Ron Paul to Ben Bernanke

if huntersburg is not you, why in god's name would you revive this stupid string?

Feb 19th, 2009:

"For the next few years while global fiat currencies are systematically debased, via central bank printing to counteract local slowdowns, the future whiplash-inflation trade (maybe 2012-2013) will be slowly building as the Kondratieff Winter plays out. It seems logical that the gold trade is a multi-year trade; if it doesn't get parabolic too early.


Thats it. When there was deflation, and little to no inflation, gold would rise from 650 to 14xx. When inflation actually becomes a threat, I bet gold will bet 1850 already. It will get silly, it will be stupid, and then it will crash fast.

Comment removed.

I mentioned this a few times in October/November 2010. We're on the verge of a dollar crisis.
Gold just made another new all time high this week.

Most folks here still don't GET IT.
My guess is, in 4-8 weeks (1-2 months) they'll wish they understood what gold's been trying to tell us over the past 10 years.

"I bet gold will bet 1850 already. It will get silly, it will be stupid, and then it will crash fast."

On the tipping point in one of the greatest bull market of our generation. Started at 270 back in 1999. It's going to be wild.

A classic from today's CNBC interview with Buffett:

BUFFETT: I mean, we use a lot of cotton. I've watched it go from 80 cents to $1.90. You know, we use a lot of copper and I've watched it go from $2 to $4-plus, so I mean there's all kinds of things in this world that are going to go up and down in price. You know, maybe hamburgers will tomorrow. And— but I— I'm— I don't know how to judge that. I do know how to judge to some extent the earning power of some businesses. And the real test of whether you would like it as an investment is whether you would be happy if it never got quoted again, and just in terms of what the asset did for you. But that doesn't— I will say this about gold, if you took all of the gold in the world it would roughly make a cube 67 feet on a side. So if you took all the gold in the world, we could have a cube that went down there 67 feet...

BECKY: Uh-huh.

BUFFETT: ...67 feet high and that would be the whole thing. Now for that same cube of gold it would be worth at today's market prices about $7 trillion. That's probably about a third of the value of all the stocks in the United States. So you could have a choice of owning a third of all the stocks in the United States or you could have a choice of owning that little block of gold, which can't do anything but kind of shine there and make you feel like Midas or Croesus or something of the sort.

Now, for $7 trillion, there are roughly a billion of farm— acres of farmland in the United States. They're valued at about $2 1/2 trillion. It's about half the continental United States, this farmland. You could have all the farmland in the United States, you could have about seven ExxonMobiles, and you could have $1 trillion of walking around money. And if you offered me the choice of looking at some 67-foot cube of gold and looking at it all day, you know, I mean touching it and fondling it occasionally, you know, and then saying, you know, `Do something for me,' and it says, `I don't do anything. I just stand here and look pretty.' And the alternative to that was to have all the farmland of the country, everything, cotton, corn, soybeans, seven ExxonMobiles. Just think of that. Add $1 trillion of walking around money. I, you know, maybe call me crazy but I'll take the farmland and the ExxonMobiles.

Cheese makers in Italy can use wheels of Parmasean as collateral with local banks. Just in case anyone was interested...

What does this potential dollar crisis do to the dollar prices of existing established Manhattan condos? On the one hand I assume interest rates shoot up but on the other there could be panic out of paper into "real" assets. My guess is that the market becomes more illiquid as buyers and sellers vanish but I really have no idea... any thoughts anyone?


The Beehive State has a new measure on the books that eliminates state taxes on the exchange of gold and silver coins and directs the legislature to study an "alternative form of legal tender."

The law, signed by Gov. Gary Herbert last week, also recognizes gold and silver coins issued by the federal government as legal tender in the state.

Gold futures touched $1,500 an ounce for the first time as the dollar weakened. Treasuries rose.

cash is just as good as money

Take a look at the long term return of the stock market. Then take a look at the correlation of gold to the stock market over time. It is negative. If you think it's worth something then think again. You can trade it all day and try to guess swings. Just because you guess right means nothing.

If you wonder why the gov't holds it... well it used to back the currency. So should they now throw it into the river since it no longer backs money? It's a defunct way of running the monetary system. Unless the amount of gold discovered grew at the same rate as real GDP (output) since the day we went off the gold standard, we wouldn't have 100% of our money backed up by gold. There wouldn't be enough gold to sustain that. Once that happened, we would still have to have a system where the gov't devalues the currency, causing inflation. Ron Paul and anyone who thinks of gold as real money need to go back to school. People who want Ron Paul as president really scare me. Someone who takes a basic macroeconomics class seems to know more than that guy. And this is all fact, not opinion.

gold is simply a barometer of faith in global fiat currency and central bank policy...that is why its sustainably rising now in virtually all currencies.

Gold no longer backs our currency. We as taxpayers do.

It's not only that Gold is up, but that the dollar is becoming worthless. Nobdody wants it. It's down, and buys less of everything, whether it be commodities or things priced in other currencies. We're down against virtually every major currency.

Gold never backed money - every time anybody asked for it, the government dropped the standard.


"money" and "asset" mean different things ya know. a proper, less trolling headline, would be "is gold an asset?" or even if you want to use your caps lock button "IS GOLD AN ASSET?"

to which the answer is obviously yes.

urbandigs, didn't you use to work in finance?

"the dollar is becoming worthless"

The dollar index was about (@86) where it is today in December of 1987, and stayed below 90 for the first half of 1088. It was in the 80-100 range from 1992 to mid 1997. It climbed up to 120 from the begining of Clinton's second term until 2002. It started its recent (though not unprecidented) long, slow decline in 2002, from 120, all the way down to 73 - during Bush 2's term all BEFORE Obama took office. Down 39% over 6 years.

Since then, its traded between 72 and 87 - and is currently at 76. So its not worthless, nor is this decline new or the fault of any one administration.

However, the other bigg decline percentage wise not only did not happen under Obama (Its actually UP from when Obama took office, though slightly).

The biggest decline after Bush 2 is of course under Reagan. Its peaked at 161 under him in 1985, and fell to 85 - a 32% drop.

A bloomberg terminal tells you a lot more than the Bloomberg website, BTW.

Basically the index has been around hwere it is in the late 70s/early 80s, late 80s/ early 90s, then again from 2005 to now.

Well before Greenbacks used to say, "this note is legal tender for all debts private and public and is redeemable on demand in gold at any federal reserve bank."

Now it's basically, "In God We Trust." :)

Unfortunately, Uncle Ben is doing exactly what Grandpa Munster, I mean Alan Greenspan, did after the bust, which led to the housing bust which led to the economic bust: flood the market with money.

But it never works. Leverage never works for long periods of time, and it always collapses when withdrawn. Monetarists will be chastened to learn that.

So OF COURSE the dollar index is low: real short-term interest rates are NEGATIVE 5%, yet TIPS are auctioned with a negative interest rate.

I think it's no coincidence that Uncle Ben decided to hold his first-ever news conference next week, after the markets get the bad news that the party's over, and the leverage will be slowly drained out of the system. Because if they don't announce that, then the OMC will likely be full of dissents, which will be worse.

Time to end supply-side economics once and for all.

And no - gold is not money. If it don't fit in a gumball machine, it ain't money.

Bush 2 pursued a weak dollar policy. Obama is doing the same but times ten.

In March, the dollar — adjusted for inflation — hit its lowest point against major U.S. trading partners’ currencies since its value was allowed to fluctuate in January 1973, according to Federal Reserve data.

“I would recommend against buying long-term fixed-dollar investments,” Buffett said at a public appearance in New Delhi. “If you ask me if the U.S. dollar is going to hold its purchasing power fully at the level of 2011 five years, 10 years or 20 years from now, I would tell you it will not.”

Bill Gross, chief executive of the giant bond investment firm Pimco, said its flagship Total Return Fund has 8 percent of its assets — a historic high — in issues denominated in currencies other than the dollar. Earlier this year, the fund dumped its entire holdings of U.S. Treasury bonds, according to disclosures.

Gross said the decline of the dollar is part of a longer-term trend Pimco calls “the new normal.”

One of the things that intrigues me is that the Chinese hold only about 1% of their foreign exchange reserves in gold. Those reserves are virtually all in paper and are huge. They have increased their gold holdings in recent years but they remain small. Imagine what would happen if they were to increase their gold holdings to even a modest (by developed world standards) 10% of their reserves.

I think they are in the process of doing just that

Classic Warren Buffett - especially the "fondling" it part. LMFAO.

No, gold is not money. Money is nothing. It is a means of exchange. Not only does it have no intrinsic value, it doesn't need to. "Fiat currency" is just a stupid concept invented by the same stupid people who think that God created time zones, and therefore time zones can't be changed. And they exist....

"I mentioned this a few times in October/November 2010. We're on the verge of a dollar crisis.
Gold just made another new all time high this week.

Most folks here still don't GET IT.
My guess is, in 4-8 weeks (1-2 months) they'll wish they understood what gold's been trying to tell us over the past 10 years."

Dollar broke below 2009 lows.
Euro crisis last year.
Dollar crisis right now....

Enjoy the ride folks.

Well the metal is now worth 1546 photos of George Washington.

now 1570

"Bush 2 pursued a weak dollar policy. Obama is doing the same but times ten."

And yet the dollar index is down only 4% from when he took office, versus down 32% under bush. It was down 22% in Bush's first term alone. How exactly is 4% TEN TIMES MORE than 22% or 32%?

And St. Reagan brought it down 32% over 8 years as well.

And yet the dollar index is down only 4% from when he took office, versus down 32% under bush. It was down 22% in Bush's first term alone. How exactly is 4% TEN TIMES MORE than 22% or 32%?

And yet Obama has managed to do that in an environment where virtually ALL FIAT CURRENCIES ARE EXPANSIONARY

Broke $1700 an ounce, while the dollar continues to break new lows and the stock market crashing. I'd say Gold is fulfilling it's role here perfectly.

yes it is until that bubble pops

I think I need to find more jewelry to sell this week

One reason why Gold is not a bubbl here, is because it's a fear trade and not a greed trade. Incidentally has anyone noticed how the number of Gold commercials goes up when ever Obama speaks on TV?

Yes, it's a fear trade, but imo, it's also a bubble

My my. My cash position just got 4.72% stronger. How's your nyc re doing?

I look at the gov't debt market as more of a bubble..
Treasuries pay less than the rate of inflation plus you have the risk that your counter-party will devalue the currency.

Well, today's pre-market has oil down and gold up. Market seems to be thinking slow growth and a Fed inclined to do something that will increase inflation but not economic output. If this holds, we learn that gold is just not another commodity.

Never understood the psychology of gold. Why not diamonds? Or these days, rare earth minerals? Why does a particular element on the period table grid the loins of nations? 3000 years ago, ok, we used to believe a lot of things then. But now it feels like the remnants of religion or superstition. I wonder if this value delusion will someday be like the emperor without clothes.

Diamonds would not work that well. They get created over time from coal and have industrial uses. You could've said oil..

Fiat money has worked well since Richard Nixon ended the dollar’s peg to gold 40 years ago this week, but this latest recession must gnaw at believers. If years of ultra-cheap cash give rise to serious inflation or an accelerated retreat of the American currency, the gold standard, however erratic and deflationary, could start to appeal again.

The arrangement born at Bretton Woods and used for nearly three decades was not a true gold standard, as it was entirely intergovernmental and the private holding of gold was illegal in America. It thus lacked the virtue of independence from political meddling, failed to provide anti-inflationary benefits and collapsed once its American sponsors no longer controlled the world economy.

The true gold standard, in which gold coins circulated freely as legal tender, was started in Britain in 1717 and lasted for just under 200 years, interrupted only during the Napoleonic wars.

World population growth is now declining after its annual peak of 2.2 percent in the early 1960s. By 2030, it is forecast to fall below the 0.72 percent rate of 1900. That would make a gold standard practicable and not too deflationary.

If gold isn't money then why are all the central bankers holding it as a reserve?

Hit 1812 high last week.
What's next?

Comment removed.

Maybe gold isn't money. Money can be depreciated by a run away central bank.

Gold up($1830) Stocks down 4%. I'd say the gold hedge is working.

"Money can be depreciated by a run away central bank"

Gold can be depreciated by new discoveries, mining, and supplies. See the Roman conquest of Egypt, the Spanish conquest of the New World, the California, Alaska, South African, and Australian gold rushes, among other things.

money is whatever people agree to use as ................. money

Money is whatever is accepted as payment (legal tender) for debts. If you can't pay your taxes with it -- it ain't money.

Gold is an asset but it isn't "money."

just got my bills from the hyatt vandome.... looks like my dollars are getting stronger? WTF, I thought only gold went up?

wha wha? A new low on stks?

AS LONG AS I CAN BRING an army with guns to force the corner grocer to take my dollars... I think I'll be okay.

NOW let's talk about the ninnies that are gonna ride the greatest RE bubble in world history to oblivion, cause they thought NYC RE never goes DOWN! Flmaozzzzzz..... $500psf... no doubt.

Comment removed.

Well what ever it is, you can now exchange it for 1850 pictures of George Washington

Did I say 1850? I meant 1874

If gold is money, then what of silver, platinum, oil, palladium, copper, or diamonds?

Diamonds can be created. Silver and Copper have industrial uses, Oil gets consumed. Gold is eternal.

they give you cash....which is just as good as money

which is a piece of "paper"?

WASHINGTON—The U.S. economy ceased to function this week after unexpected existential remarks by Federal Reserve chairman Ben Bernanke shocked Americans into realizing that money is, in fact, just a meaningless and intangible social construct.

What began as a routine report before the Senate Finance Committee Tuesday ended with Bernanke passionately disavowing the entire concept of currency, and negating in an instant the very foundation of the world's largest economy.

"Though raising interest rates is unlikely at the moment, the Fed will of course act appropriately if we…if we…" said Bernanke, who then paused for a moment, looked down at his prepared statement, and shook his head in utter disbelief. "You know what? It doesn't matter. None of this—this so-called 'money'—really matters at all.",2912/

Well, Now Gold is money...


On Thursday, the newest tenant in Donald Trump's 40 Wall Street, a 70-story skyscraper in Manhattan's Financial District, will hand Mr. Trump a security deposit worth about $176,000. No money will change hands—just three 32-ounce bars of gold, each about the size of a television remote control.

The occasion will mark the first time the Trump Organization has accepted 99.9% pure gold bullion, rather than cash, as a deposit on a commercial lease. The tenant, precious-metals dealer Apmex, will sign a 10-year lease for 40 Wall's 50th floor at a leasing rate of about $50 a square foot, according to Apmex Chief Executive Michael R. Haynes. The company is promoting the use of gold as a replacement for cash in some situations.

"Gold has been a valuable asset class for the last 10,000 years, but the world has drifted away from it," Mr. Haynes says. "I figured, Trump is a smart guy, and he'll realize that taking gold is a better idea than taking cash."


Good call on Noah for unloading his stake! Man, you good!

"Saying Goodbye to Gold After an 18 month run-up in gold prices, many hedge funds are beginning to unwind their positions in the precious metal. The New York Times takes a look at what's behind the sell-off."


yay! let's see you do it again and again and again...

and if you KNEW shouldn't you have shorted?

Pls, I need $$$... tell me where your next trade is that will make your net worth go up by .05%... time to shut down UD website?

Nay, still up.

This is a bull market. Nothing has should be accumulated on dips and this is a good one. Silver even better.

If I had to speculate perhaps liquidity demands were such that institutions just need to liquidate and convert into Cash. When you need funds over-nite, gold cannot deliver.

CME just raised margin requirements again:

And for anybody who thinks gold is currency, just Google Gold Degaulle, and you'll figure out why the standard was abandoned.

But to make it easier:,9171,840572,00.html

Paul Brodsky: Well yeah, I think if you look at gold, it is a, and you start to think of it as a currency which it is, and not as a commodity, a volatile commodity, all gold does I think, is handicap the likelihood that there will be a de-leveraging or a new monetary system. And at $250 an ounce it was a very, the market thought it was a very low likelihood, and $1,600 it is a higher likelihood and if there is a reset in the global currency regime, maybe gold becomes worth $10,000 or even more, who knows, or something not even $10,000, whatever they can get away with. But it is some bigger number. So yes, in answer to your question, I would say, gold should be thought of as cash in the best currency. I would suggest anything scarce with inelastic demand property, and that is of course how we get energy and how we get agriculture and various other things. They should be considered very strongly.

"Gold Tumbles Below $1,600

NEW YORK—Gold broke below $1,600 an ounce for the first time since early October, as a sharply weaker euro and losses in other markets prompted investors to raise cash by selling precious-metals holdings.

Gold, which has tarnished its image as a haven in recent months by moving in step with riskier assets like stocks and other commodities, tumbled 5% Wednesday as a broad-market rout saw investors shed holdings in favor of cash...."

But...I thought Gold WAS the same as cash????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?!?!?!?!?!?!

of course, gold is a terrible one day hedge, and short term the fear is that central banks sell gold to pay their debts, however long term central banks may inflat their way out of their funding issues so gold comes back.

the trade where gold acts as a hedge against paper currency will end at some point. Not sure if its now, but if gold were to fall to 1,000 or below, that would be a welcome sign that perhaps, just perhaps, the worst of the fiscal insanity and this debt deflationary force may be over. Doesnt mean its over, just past its mid way point and perhaps at the end of its cycle. But gold is still at 1600 levels, so who knows. Ive been out of my gold for a while now, but I know many are still waiting for the 'euphoria' phase of the move to play out

Interesting Noah,
So you don't view a future of goverments resorting to the printing press as a way of curing their deficits as a risk needing to be hedged..

that may define the tail end of this cycle, a tail that may last for 2-3 years as the sovereigns restructure their debts. Gold rose 250% or so from mid 2007 levels, when many other assets fell hard. But the move wasnt as fierce on the up side that many expected, including myself. I thought it would get silly and bust out to 2500 or so, up 100 a day for a few weeks with the occasional selloff. That didnt plat out. All I know is that gold is reflecting the willingness of CBs and GOVTs to print, bail out, extend and pretend, and push out the issue. I welcome the day gold is back to $500

Dollar represents a flight to liquidity. Gold a flight quality. Gold is sometimes a currency, sometimes a commodity and sometimes a store of value. Buying gold and worrying about long term currency depreciation in the face of a liquidity run is like engaging in a negative basis trade. You risk not being around for the bet to pay off. Every day is different, and recently we've seen a few where liquidity fears are driving the market.

Noah, the temptation for government's to inflate and the massive amounts of liquidity that have been put out by the Fed, but not yet in the hands of the public, is a harbinger of what could really go wrong.

How much off bubble peak is gold down? When you mean flight to quality..... You mean real estate never goes down and you can charge whatever you want in an inflationary period.

What a fking steamy pile of shit you and Noah sell on this board.

And let's not forget what happens to your pos riverside coop when inflation is at 10% but you just prepaid for your coop force field with AIG.

Forget 10%, how about ending of zip Policy so we have Ho hum, 7% mortgages. But fk youd never sell bc your forever money making coop will then allow you to rent at earn 10% and 100% per annus on a leveraged basis to infinity and beyond!!!!!!

Now I wonder what happens to rents if every nycer rented out their coops to earn 100% per annus forever!!!!!' think retard. Think.

gold/silver correction over

"When you mean flight to quality..... You mean real estate never goes down and you can charge whatever you want in an inflationary period. "

No. I mean your the one always cursing here and spitting out 'fking steamy pile of shit'. I cant recall one rational message you said on this board to enhance a discussion. 10% inflation? So your a hyperinflationist then in a debt deflationary world? Must be tough to be completely off? Do you even know why we have a zirp policy? I may not agree with it, but at least I understand why the fed is doing what they are doing.

Begin your curse filled rant now and dont forget to end with your very educational, "lmfaozzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz"

Urban, I suggest ignore.
By the way, of all the arguments against gold being money that I've heard the best one seems to be that the government doesn't recognize it,.. What I mean is you can't pay your taxes in gold, although it is perfectly suitable for private transactions..

The CEO of Linde AG gave an interview to Der Spiegel and adds doubt to long term Euro viability. So the question is do you hold Euros or hedge your risk with Gold? Gold was around before the Euro and will likel exist after the Euro.. just hold enough fiat money to pay your taxes.

Comment removed.

midtowner: i'm not so sure. i imagine we could see gold bump around a bit, and i wouldn't be completely surprised or dismayed to see it dip down below $1,500 in the shorter term (six months). But in the longer term (two years) i'm betting it goes over $2,000.

matson: don't forget your number are non existant. I lost a bit from the MF collapse which was all about the inability to deliver physical precious metals.
If you can get platinum at comex price please do . i couldn't. platinum is the best deal right now.
comex prices are a charade: like a madoff balance statement.
Physical is the key. the spread is widening. silver is in backwardation again.
you really feel bad for little w67. child abuse is so widespread.

Comment removed.
Comment removed.

break out imminent

None of this adds credence to the idea that gold is money. It sounds an awful lot like Gold is a commodity people invest in. What other major currency has the volatility of gold? None, not in my lifetime.

Zimbabwe Dollars.


Rentals (3178)
Market (1513)
Neighborhoods (649)
Boards (311)
Renovation (1985)
Anything (2471)
Sales (24648)
Developments (619)
Financing (509)
Schools (109)
Brokers (383)
Services (525)