be@Schermerhorn

Last I read it was supposed to start selling again this month. They might be waiting to completely finish the interiors before they do that.

I, too, heard about their sales resuming this summer--which I felt was a bit odd because I thought going rental might make more financial sense in this climate. Also, buyers often start looking earlier in the spring...

I wish them well, and it is not a bad bldg. if it can be priced right this time. I'd think they need to shift their target audience this time because, due to lower prices in Manhattan, people may be less willing to move there from Manhattan than they were in 2006-2007.

So, they should focus their efforts on people with ties to Brooklyn...you know, those people who'd post "Brooklyn is the best of the best and I will never consider living elsewhere!"-type messsages here...

I don't think they'll go rental. I admit it looked like it for a while but after the price reductions at Forte, they managed to sell out after having a hard time of it. Also, Toren has been having a steady stream of closings lately too.

I think they'll do price cuts and that will probably move the inventory. There are plenty of people who will buy there but the price needs to be lower now.

I do agree that there needs to be price cuts but I'm a bit perplexed as to to why they have taken so long to relaunch sales. I called the sales number on their site and the individual indicated sales would start May 1st. I wonder if they are still sticking with having no laundry facilities in the units? It just doesn't make sense to me.

yihusI, while some buyers look for in-unit WD, one might note that THE large majority of NYC apartments don't have them. Thus, that is unlikely to be a deal breaker if the units look good otherwise and the pricing is right.

The market segment they are going for (young urban singles) typically sends their laundry out by choice. I think they've done their market research on this.

nyc212 I have to disagree with you on that point. The large majority of NYC apartments built pre-2000's might not have them, but the hundreds of newly constructed apartments in downtown Brooklyn and surrounding area do have in-unit WD. That's why you sacrifice the city life in Manhattan, in order to pay for the added convenience.

If you ask me, I think the developers tried to cut costs or tried to hedge their bets as to how the market was going to be in the future...(ie. prepping for rental in a downturn market) The convenience in paying $600+/square ft. is throwing in a load of laundry and enjoying a glass of vino while listening to Biggie and surfing the net. Not watching the time pass and going up and down the elevator to see if my load is finished, especially if one lives in the upper units. All I'm saying is that I hope they did their research on the amenities in this so-called laundry lounge.

yihusl, newer buildings might have them but more people live in buildings or apartments without a w/d in the unit or even in the building. For a lot of people having a laundry room in the building would be a step up from having to take their laundry down to the laundromat. Even without that they'll still get more for their $ in Brooklyn. For some that might be a deal breaker but most people will overlook that if the price is right.

They just need to do what they did with the Brooklyner and have the machines email or text you when your laundry is done. Then you don't have to wait around in the lounge if you don't want to.

Is that the only issue about this building? No in-unit w/d ?! Anybody know what the last sale prices were, before they pulled it off the market? I seem to remember that they were not too high, at the time. So, when they price-cut; how much do you think they will go back on the market for?

the units are too small, that's the main reason why it's not selling.

dewyagi: Did you actually go take a look at it? What's the biggest 1-bedroom ?

fwiw, the construction clearly isn't done on the building -- the whole back half is still scaffolded and in-progress. I guess they could sell in phases and start with the more-finished bits, but I haven't seen any active work on the building recently.

for anyone interested in the area, there's a lot of rival inventory nearby.

nyguy7 you are right about that, and hopefully they will have that type of technology installed but I do assume they will have to discount that into the price based on the rival inventory in the area. I'm really curious to see how they price these units this time around.

i looked in this building months ago when they has a bunch of active listings. the building is very nice but the floor plans aren't very practical and square footage listed on these units seems very inflated. they don't look or feel nearly as large as they say they are. but it is a good location and if significant price cuts are coming, i would consider buying there.

scott: Did you look at one-bedrooms? How large did they say they were?
They will have to drop pricing down, to 350K to make it reasonable if they want to sell this time around.

i looked at 2BRs.. from what i recall they were listed around 920 but felt more like 775-800.

on a positive note, the music on the be@schermerhorn website is quite groovy.

I called the number at their website and was told that the sales effort will resume "late Spring". I live in the area and the construction seems to be continuing.

I heard a rumor saying there will be about a 20% cut in prices.

Maybe they'll cut down prices to about $500 a sq. ft give or take a few bucks? I think that's what Forte did.

Looks like the price drops are starting.

... and I see from today's Brownstoner ads that sales have reopened.

The agent for 189 Schermerhorn shows me a pricing list that also has the estimated property tax after the 15 abatement is over. For apt 3-15D (which is about 684 sq ft), the property tax after the abatement is around $705 per month (which comes out to be around $8,460 a year). Does anyone know why is the apt property tax in this building is this high? $8000+ property tax seems even higher than NJ property tax.

Wow, $8,000 is a lot. I pay that in taxes now, for approx. 900 sq ft. in East midtown (Northern border,somewhereelse).

Ameba 1234,

your number on tax abatement isnt correct,
they have 15 year tax abatement.. look at the listing below.

http://www.corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&ListingID=1311229

All the history of construction problems to this building would be concerning.

http://therealdeal.com/newyork/articles/be-schermerhorn-by-jamestown-properties-and-sds-procida-relaunches-sales-again

Looking555, I was just a little worried about the property tax after the 15 years abatement. My property tax number is without the abatement. The price for the property tax if there is no abatement seems very high ($705 per month) for 189 Schermerhorn. Does anyone know what is the average property tax for downtown brooklyn condos without abatement?

$ 705 month after tax abatemtn is over ,plus around $ 450 maintenance per month which can only go up = around $ 1155 per month for a small unit of 684 sft with no washer and dryer ....Where is the deal in this bad economy ? The 15 years tax abatment implies that you taxes stay the lowest for 10 years and then go up 20 % each year for 5 years

I,too find the property tax higher than average.

Yes, I have been to both 1 & 2 bdrooms. They are all very small even on a manhattan standard. Floorplans are often awkward, and northern exposure is blocked by Macys probably from 20th floor down.

Southern exposure would be facing brooklyn.

Finish is terrible, more suitable for rental building than condo.

No washer/dryer hoodup and no space for it whatsoever.

Closets are very small/barely none. Storage space is very limited and very small, probably big enough to fit in 3 suit cases.

Sponsor is not willing to negotiate price at this point on some better floorplans.

I stopped by the open house yesterday, which was packed.

In the building's defense: The second-floor courtyard is beautiful, and probably the nicest outdoor-common-space I've seen in the downtown condos (Belltel/Oro/Toren).

But beyond that, I tend to agree with dewyagi's take. Not much to impress there. Plus, there was a five-to-10 minute wait for the elevator, just with the open-house crowd. It seems like that could be a disaster at rush hours when the building is fully occupied.

I also was at the packed open house. Doesn't the gym and laundry room seem really small for such a big building?

I'm intrigued by the building, but not ready to bite, there are too many things that seem off. I don't really like the financing options either.

Financing options arent going to be too favorable until the building sells 30% for FHA approval or 51% for Fannie approval. What kind of financing options are they offering currently? For those that have a 77k household income or lower, we are offering a 5k credit at closing. Not everyone will benefit but those interested in the lower priced units will. But of course the pre-sale requirements need to be met first. sunny.hong@bankofamerica.com

Saw the units this week. Preferred lenders are Meridian, Amalgamated and Home. Price wise, not as good of a deal as Forte, but not surprising since that was a forced firesale. The agents seem pretty busy and the building seems to have sufficient initial momentum to do well. From what I hear, 2 bedrooms are going fast. I think many units here (especially the two bedroom units) have a good potential for appreciation in 5-7 years.

I echo the sentiment regarding the smaller perceived space. The finish probably falls a bit short compared to other downtown condos but in my opinion, they seem appropriate at the current price range. This building probably has the best location out of them however. It%u2019s too bad each unit doesn%u2019t come with W/D but that seems to be a design philosophy based on target buyers (young professionals). I wouldn't sweat the small stuff re: taxes after abatement in 15 years or elevator traffic due to a crammed open house, though they are good observations.

When I looked at this place last summer that was the impression I was getting. It was targeting a specific younger demographic. They were trying to create a building where it was more of a community feel. They were trying to create an environment where people would hang out in public areas more with their neighbors rather than always staying in their own condo, hence things like the laundry room right off the lounge. If I was still looking I'd probably would be considering this place since I considered laundry in the building to be a step up from before.

We went to the open house as well a couple weeks ago. The units were uninspired but were sunny, and made the most of their space. I thought the 2 bedrooms quite interesting, the J and E units on the 16th floor boasted sizable terraces and roomy bedrooms. I wasn't a fan of the lack of w/d, the slow elevators, the weird cabana money making scheme, and the lack of luxury bathrooms. You can check out our photos on http://www.joshandmarie.us/2010/05/23/beschermerhorn/ I took a lot of the 2 bedrooms since that was the most interesting to us. Beware of the one bedrooms with the hobbit sized "hall"/HO/dining room.

y

Is anyone biting on the roof deck yet? the views are some of the best aspects of the building.

The prices in this building are great until you consider the high common charges and make sure that you ask what the property taxes would be w/o 421-A because in 10 years those taxes will start phasing in. This building has extremely high property taxes (high assessed values). A nice 1BR would be $575 C.C. with $775 property taxes. That's $1,350 a month (not adjusted for inflation) on top of your mortgage when the 421-A runs up. I take these things into consideration unlike a lot of people who believe they will sell in 7 years. If I buy I want to know I can afford to stay there for years to come.

Common charges and property taxes are not an investment. They are like rent, money you spend and have nothing in return at the end of the month. Investment wise you are better off buying in a building with low C.C. and low taxes where you can put your money into mortgage payments.

Correct,mieter. Also good to have the money to pay utilities: outrageous Con Ed , telephone, cable bills. Please keep me posted with your findings of good buildings. Thanks.

They probably have that in their offering plan, with and without 421-A. But I bed those tax values are probably still estimated from the buildings original offering prices from 2008 which were a lot higher. They've lowered the prices considerably on a lot of units and probably haven't changed their tax assessment to reflect that yet.

I'm still not sure how the city comes up with the tax value on a property (they don't tax it on the full value obviously). But either way, yes, you should ask to see what they estimate the taxes to be without a 421. Either way, this still wouldn't make this building the most expensive in terms of maint. and taxes in the area though, I've seen others with much higher maint and tax charges than the $1,350 estimated above for a 1 bedroom.

Does anyone know what would drive the tax valuations on these apartments? they seem very high. Even if you're not going to hold on to the apartment for more than 10 years, the fact that the taxes will be so high after the abatement runs out is sure to take a chunk out of the value of the property when you want to resell it.

It also seems weird that the common charges are so high given that the amenities are fairly minimal compared to other similar buildings in the area. And yes, the laundry room is very small for the number of units in the building.

I really wonder who are the buyers who are jumping at these units.

High post-abatement tax may reflect higher land value of this development vis-a-vis other developments in the area.

I think people who are submitting offers on these units are not paying attention to some of the negatives mentioned here but probably focusing on its positives, which are: 1) location, 2) light & views, and 3) potential. I live in the area so I know very well: it is 1 block away from major subways (A/C/2/3), close to Promenade (about 10 blocks or 2 train stops) and Smith St. (a lively scene w/ great eats), across from a high-end grocery store, 2 blocks away from Barnes & Nobles, a great pizzeria and a movie theater, next to improving Fulton street (Sheraton opening, etc), a few blocks removed from major Brooklyn and Manhattan bridge arteries (quiet yet convenient), close to cheap parking, and is far enough from the nearby jail and housing projects as to not be stigmatized by them (blockaded by Oro, Toren, and 75 Smith etc). The area will also benefit from the Atlantic Yards project (major entertainment venue/Brooklyn Nets) and the Freedom Tower (jobs) when they get built in 5 years, and this building's great location will make it easier to benefit from these changes. Units have floor-to-ceiling windows, with a lot of light and great views of Manhattan and Brooklyn; some units definitely have jaw dropping views - and probably the best thing is that the best views are accessible to all at the rooftop.

I think out of all of downtown new developments, this building might actually have the highest potential for capital appreciation, especially given current prices, notwithstanding its mediocre finish, lack of W/D and high taxes (in 15 years). I would not be surprised to see the units sell for the "original ask" (back when this came out 2 years ago), say, in 5 years. For a young professional who sends out laundry and plans to sell in about 7 years, this could be a jackpot.

Jaw dropping views from the top is correct. Location in downtown Brooklyn is very accessible. Fulton Street is not going to be a place Be @ owners will shop. However, Atlantic Ave and Smith Street boutiques are HOT. Walking distance to Atlantic Center and the new Nets arena.

Most new condo project have the same tax abatement so the investment potential is the same across many condo project. The maintenance fees are good for a full service building.

But with all the new units nearby that still haven't sold or rented, and all the units that will eventually come on line with the Atlantic Yards project, won't that serve to keep values depressed for the near term? It's not as if there are 10,000 families out there just dying for an apartment in downtown brooklyn -- and certainly not that many who could afford to pay even this much for them. Add to that the likelihood that mortgage rates won't stay this low much longer, and of course the abatements expiring in 15 years (with the taxes starting their ramp up in 10 years.) I don't see what forces out there could really result in the values of these properties increasing substantially in the next 20 years.

I looked at a resale 1br condo in excellent condition (without a tax abatement) 3-4 blocks from Be@Schermerhorn that was listed for a very reasonable price. However the property taxes were $850 a month, that's why it was listed so low in my opinion.

I see more units coming in as a planned gentrification of the area - part of a general tidal shift in make up of its residents. Inhabitants change neighborhoods - shops change to cater to them, what people think of the neighborhood changes, etc. And importantly, these changes are accretive; they feed onto each other. I think these changes can be more sweeping than micro-economic dynamics of supply/demand. The area is ripe for the younger generation's taking and to build as they see fit. I am excited for them and the area's potential - not for what it is today, but what it could be.

it looks like the people are signing contracts. i think we are going to see the initial push soon. does anyone think the deals are now or better to wait?
any ideas on financing?

Can anyone who has made an offer or negotiated a contract comment on how negotiable they were?

for the smaller/cheaper units, the prices were non-negotiable.

You'll probably have some room to negotiate, but yeah I would assume the cheapest units will have the least amount of wiggle room. You can always try to get them to pay the closing costs or at least half that since those are going to be incredibly expensive.

From what I gather, it seems like a seller's (sponsor's) market for this building right now, though it may quickly change. The latest I've heard is about 25-30% in contract or accepted offer, which is pretty good considering the time frame but keep in mind that this is a 250 unit and they still have ways to go. I heard prices haven't been negotiated much but the battle ground is in closing costs. Whether to commit now or wait I suppose depends on how strong the untapped demand is and how strongly you desire any given unit. I'm told desirable units are moving fast, which is expected. Stars always do well but how the average does will determine its fate. After the initial push, if the demand wanes, you'll get a better deal, but if people jump on the bandwagon, opposite will happen.

Can anyone confirm what kind of rates you are being offered by their preferred mortgage lenders?

Just saw this at nypost: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/realestate/residential/turn_IAl6ElhLbsFevjUhU4msXO

Be@Schermerhorn

There’s almost nothing developers hate more than falling so far behind schedule that they have to release buyers from contracts — but that’s exactly what Be@Schermerhorn, a 246-unit building in Downtown Brooklyn, had to do last year after it failed to sell 50 percent of its condos. Construction was halted. Deposits were returned.

Be@Schermerhorn's remaining mortgage was then sold to an Atlanta-based asset management company, Jamestown Properties, which paid off the development’s outstanding construction loans. And after coming back on the market this spring, the building sold 65 units in a month.

“We’re expecting to be [30 percent sold] by the end of the month,” says Michael Phillips, marketing director for Jamestown.

Prices were cut to the bone: A 444-square-foot studio, for instance, can now be purchased for $265,950 — just under $600 per square foot. Back in 2008, the same studio was listed for $345,000 or $777 per square foot. And some units are now much closer to $500 per square foot.

In addition, Jamestown also took a close look at how Be@Schermerhorn had been marketing itself.

“The message before was hipper, younger,” Phillips says. “It was geared toward making friends and meeting people in your building.”

But it’s hard to have a fun party in an empty building, so the marketing team sacrificed sexiness for practicality. The goal is now to attract first-time buyers with low pricing, accessible layouts and an emerging area.

“We’re doing very simple, clean architecture, with wide oak floors and simple cabinetry and great views,” Phillips says. “It’s fast becoming a re-gentrified neighborhood. There’s not much more to it than that.”

To Be Or Not To Be@Schermerhorn?

"Prices were cut to the bone: A 444-square-foot studio, for instance, can now be purchased for $265,950 — just under $600 per square foot."

That's not quite to the "bone".

A tiny studio in this building shouldn't be more than about $165K.

That's correct, Matt.

$583 per sq ft on average isn't bad given that Toren is $740, Belltel is $638, and Oro $754. I guess since Forte sold out quick at $500 per sq ft, they're trying to price a little higher. The building has its pros and cons, but I do like its location compared to the other downtown buildings for being close to Smith st and a lot of train lines.

I think we're looking at what a "fair" price should be for New York real estate from the wrong direction.

We should be looking at who would theoretically be able to afford the apartment.

Roughly speaking, for Manhattan co-ops and condos (factoring in the monthly maintenance/common charges), one can comfortably afford to buy an apartment that's 2.5 times his annual gross income (we're talking about the price of the apartment itself, not the amount of the mortgage). Depending on how much savings he has, he might be able to stretch that to 3 times his annual gross income.

So where does that put us for a tiny studio in downtown Brooklyn? Well, it's clear that only one person could comfortably live in this cell - er, UNIT. What kind of person would that be? Most likely someone younger -- in their 20s, most likely -- just starting out.

Well, priced at $265,950, you'd need a person making at least $106,380.

Now, let's look at the kinds of jobs in the New York market that pay $106,380. Is this a realistic "starting out" salary for a 20-something?

No. In this market, jobs in most industries for people with less than 10 years of professional experience pay in the $25-60K range. In most industries, you won't break six figures until well into your second decade of professional tenure.

This "just starting out" person would be able to afford, most likely, something maxing out at around $150,000. Which is why I suggested this apartment shouldn't be priced any higher than about $165K. This is right in line with the type of buyer for whom this apartment would be most appropriate.

sounds like the entire city needs to be repriced. or maybe everyone should just be renters.

when evaluating be@ you have to look at the total package, not just 1 slice of the pie. They have Jamestown has priced these units to make a certain return. They want that return and it looks like people want to buy apartments at these prices.

has anyone thought about the cabana/roof space? just wanted to see what people are thinking about these.

"They want that return and it looks like people want to buy apartments at these prices."

I don't know why anyone making a six-figure income would possibly want to live in a 400 square foot studio in downtown Brooklyn.

Well to be fair if you can put 10% down on the $266k unit, you should be paying less than $1,700 monthly or around $20k a year. To qualify for a mortgage and live in comfort you'll want to spend around 25% of your salary on debt payments. So I'd say a salary around 80k is more than enough, but you could afford the place with a salary of 60k (33% of annual income). You'd probably get a mortgage with a salary of 55k too if you have good credit, but you'll have to be frugal. If you sit tight and wait out the market for another possible dip in real estate, or the initial demand for units in schermerhorn to wane, they'd be foolish not to negotiate with potential buyers as they need to sell around 200 more units! I'm not sure how much they're willing to negotiate right now, but I'm about to find out as I'm on the fence about this place. I think the location is worth buying into, but I feel given the basic interiors and lack of W/D some of the higher units are overpriced. That could possibly explain why a lot of the units above the 20th floor are available, while the 16th to 20th are selling.

The studios here aren't that small when compared to other studios in the area. Brooklyn Heights usually has smaller studios in older buildings. At least here you'll get a real kitchen vs. a pullman kitchen in most places. If you were looking in Park Slope you'd pay more.

Also, since this building no longer has a mortgage on it there's no pressure to move units quickly anymore. They seem to be closing more units now than they were last year around this time.

If you are thinking of buying, keep in mind that mortgage rates are at historic lows. I've read that a 1% increase in rates erodes 10% of purchase price. So if you try and wait for the possibility of another dip in prices (+10%), you could be breaking even or worse in your monthly payments, as rates can only go up from here. As far as the high common charges, 1st time homebuyers should consider the tax benefit of owning. This should ease the extra burden of the common charges. For us, it will be less expensive to own here than to rent a similar size apt. AND, the top three rules of RE are location, location and location. As far as I'm concerned this is the center of the universe, within a 20 minute subway ride to anywhere in Manhattan or Brooklyn.

@NYCMatt: I like your scenarios analysis. Unfortunately, it's just too far from reality in this city, at least at the heart of the city. Sure, one can still get $165K studio in Inwood, South Bronx, Flushing or Bensonhurst; the premium for short commute within city limit is what you ignored.

I looked at the cabana. It's the worst idea of the developer. The rooftop view of this building is amazing and I am puzzled by why they suddenly abandoned the communal philosophy from the 2nd floor ("laundry lounge"? which many in 20s-30s would LOVE to use and mingle in) to the roof ("private cabana!" which are basically 10ft-by-5ft squares fenced off with plastic vine on wire frame).

@big1 and @ re_guru: Do you have a blog or something? I'd love to follow your RE opinions.

You are comparing Inwood, South Bronx, Bensonhurst to Flushing? Have you been to those neighborhoods?

lutrasi
6 minutes ago
ignore this person
report abuse

@NYCMatt: I like your scenarios analysis. Unfortunately, it's just too far from reality in this city, at least at the heart of the city. Sure, one can still get $165K studio in Inwood, South Bronx, Flushing or Bensonhurst; the premium for short commute within city limit is what you ignored.

I looked at the cabana. It's the worst idea of the developer. The rooftop view of this building is amazing and I am puzzled by why they suddenly abandoned the communal philosophy from the 2nd floor ("laundry lounge"? which many in 20s-30s would LOVE to use and mingle in) to the roof ("private cabana!" which are basically 10ft-by-5ft squares fenced off with plastic vine on wire frame).

@big1 and @ re_guru: Do you have a blog or something? I'd love to follow your RE opinions.

@lookloftsbk: Yes, I've lived in Inwood and went to graduate school in Washington Heights for many years. I point out those neighborhood out for where you may find $165K studio. If that sounds abusive to you, I don't know what do say, because you apparently haven't learnt to read the whole sentence. Or perhaps, the word "premium" is too hard for you. Do you have a dictionary? (Now, you really make me abusive! LOL)

Where does "abuse" come into my question. Perhaps you are too quick to read hostility in a very mild question. Perhaps your reading comprehension is below par. In any event, inexpensive housing may be found in all the neighborhoods you listed but they are very disparate from Flushing. The crime rates and/or transportation are far superior in Flushing. The development and infrastructure as a community is far superior as well. To lump it together with the other neighborhoods is rather random and I was simply querying whether you were familiar with them.

Not that this "argument" is even important, I am not an argumentative person, I simply found your statement a peculiar grouping. E.g. "You can purchase bulldogs, chihuahas, rottweilers and siamese cats for $100".

lutrasi
15 minutes ago
ignore this person
report abuse

@lookloftsbk: Yes, I've lived in Inwood and went to graduate school in Washington Heights for many years. I point out those neighborhood out for where you may find $165K studio. If that sounds abusive to you, I don't know what do say, because you apparently haven't learnt to read the whole sentence. Or perhaps, the word "premium" is too hard for you. Do you have a dictionary? (Now, you really make me abusive! LOL)

I see. Maybe you shouldn't copy the time stamp and the 'ignore' and 'abusive' links on the left column. Did you see any poster doing that above? No one. I though you was reporting abuse of my comment. Yup! I was a little too quick to read hostility because you copied the links.

As Flushing goes, when I first came to this country from Asia 11 years ago, I did go there shopping almost every week. That has gradually dropped to about once every 4-5 months. It's indeed a nice place (especially when you can speak the contemporary 'local language') but nowadays I would only take LIRR there from Manhattan; can't bear with the 7 train anymore -- that's one of the great transportation you meant, I guess.

I picked the four neighborhoods randomly to illustrate the premium of convenient commute and proximity to city center. If one of them is at odd with others, it would be South Bronx, which is the only one served by multiple subway line. Not Flushing, sorry.

@lookloftsbk: no blog, but you have me thinking...!

I meant lutrasi...

Yo lutrasi! You got a problem with Bensonhurst? How dare you equate Bensonhurst with Flushing!

If you look at some of the comps around the area the prices seem a lot more reasonable.

You can live at 100 Jay St right on the York St. stop on the F train in a studio that's 100 sq ft larger, with w/d for an asking price of a 499K if you really want to talk about crazy prices.

To be fair that is Dumbo. The apples to apples comp is Toren.
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/391846-condo-150-myrtle-ave-downtown-brooklyn-brooklyn
This is part of their affordable housing, so you need to make less than $125k annually. 495 ft², with a W/D, in a building with over 50% occupancy, better amenities, and a W/D... compare that to 444 ft² at Schermerhorn, no W/D, and no 25 year tax abatement. Sorry to say, but Toren is the comp; and the better deal per ft² if you can put up another 30k.

It wasn't a comp but a contrast for people who though price per sq. footage was high for a studio here.

Dmar, I beg to differ. Toren's maintenance are alot higher than Schermerhorn? Did you put this into consideration as well?

Also, location is terrible for Toren. It's like aleast 5 - 8 blocks away from everything. Your better off walking across the Manhatten bridge than to the subway line.

Sometimes, it's not always about amenities. You have to realize that you're paying for it too. I rather have less amenities so that I can pay less for it (each month). If they install a jacuzzi next to the poool, why would I want to pay more for that? F that.

You might be the type of person to use every single amenities, mon - friday, etc. But I'm just saying..

I would agreed that Toren has the upperhand with tax abatement. This is probably the only great thing about it. The layout of Toren is strange and isn't it any better than other places. Their craftmanship is better, but I wonder about the quality of the other stuff...It's like a disguise in the making.

With regards to affordable housing, I'm not really a big fan of this program.Don't get me wrong. I think this is great for individuals who have a very low income, but I'm not sure if I want to live with them.

This is definitely a debate, but I guess what I'm trying to say is there's probably going to be alot of 'ghetto' people living there as well...

I might not be using the right word either. I don't want to say stereotyping by using the word ghetto because of the people who live in that area...I'm not referring to them. I'm asking referring to the people who are generally act and live very ghetto-ish....even if they have a decent job/wage of living...

fixing my last statement:

I don't want to sound like im sterotyping by using the word ghetto because of the people who live in that area...I'm not referring to them. I'm just referring to the people who are generally act and live very ghetto-ish in their life...even if they have a decent job/wage of living...

I understand that this can happen anywhere but I almost feel that this program will lure those kind of people to live here.

Not hating..just saying.

I guess it's all up to interpretation, but Toren's common charges are around $100 more. Again the subject is studio prices; Schermerhorn is a better deal for 1 and 2 bedrooms. I was all for Schermerhorn when it came back on the market for the 3rd time, but the recent price cuts at Toren could swing the purchase of a studio in their favor. The building is 50, 60% occupied? Either way, that 50 or 60% more than Schermerhorn. There 15 year abatement at Schermerhorn is not even in place yet, so who knows. Apparently the web listings say 36 units in contract, which is around 15% after 2 months. Given all the latest Urbandigs data, a seasonal summer slowdown in sales in inevitable. So you're taking a huge risk in purchasing a studio at Schermerhorn to save 30k; all which will all be on the mortgage anyway, and I bet if you kept the studio for 30 years its cheaper at Toren in the long run since you'll save 5k annually in taxes for 10 years (so 50k savings). Okay enough pro Toren- has anyone been negotiating at Schermerhorn for 1 or 2 bedroom units? I've been told they're not too generous in the negotiating.

does anyone have an idea what kind of financing has been available on these apts/what is the minimum down payment required with good credit and relatively high income?

also, have people had any success getting them to cover closing costs on the 1 bedrooms?

thanks

by the way, just wanted to weigh in on the property taxes point addressed above -- that after the abatement, property taxes will shoot up to $775 a month. one thing to consider is that the $775/mo figure really only translates to $465/mo after tax savings (assuming 40% taxation on your income).

They're only covering the transfer taxes and sponsors attorney fee it seems. Not enough to really make me buy in this falling market. I'd rather just wait it out the and see if they chop prices again after closings start. My bet is they do, prices still need to be around $50 per sq ft less for units to really sell IMO.

that's disappointing.

out of curiosity, when you say it needs to be around $50/sq ft less, what are you comparing to? i've really just started looking over the past couple weeks, and be@schermerhorn seems to me to be a better investment on paper than anything else in the area. i've heard that the toren and oro are a bit nicer with better amenities, but for me the price and location of be@schermerhorn make it more attractive. still haven't seen it though -- have an appt for this weekend.

Got an appt too n_gold. We'll see what they have, but I tend to agree that I'd like to see it price a little lower.

have you seen the lack of laundry in the place... its 15 machines for 400 units..

what are people's thoughts on the preferred lenders? sunny.hong@bankofamerica.com

About the tax amount of $775 a month. What unit are you basing that amount on? Right now if you were buying the studio, without the abatement your taxes would probably be around $200 a month. This is assuming the city is going to base the tax amount on the closing price. In 15 years it's hard to say what the city is going to estimate the value of that same unit. I don't disagree you'll be paying a lot more then but I'm not sure it would be that high.

15 machines for 400 units? lol. Well to be more specific, I think it's 246 units...Anyhow,I wish this place provided a W/D in each unit. Why? seriously, why?

Forget the negotiations, the real issue is trying to get an approval for a loan. Not sure if everyone realizes how difficult it is to purchase a place nowadays for new condos. They are recommending a few of their lenders, but you know there's something special about those relationships......

Per my sources, if you can put a high downpayment, you'll have room to bargain a price ....but isn't that always the case for all places??

Personally, I don't see their prices getting any lower...If it does, this will extremely affect the property value around the neighborhood. Basically, if your place is purchase at 10-15% lower than market value, you have a great deal...but it's so hard to say now because of the economy.

Do you honestly think that they will drop their price again (20-25%)? Doubt it. This mean 40-50% price cut from their original sales since 2008. If that's the case, then what's the point for them? They will end up losing...but will gain little by little....

They may drop prices on units that don't sell later on but no, I agree, they're not going to do any more major price chops. I think they're just waiting to hit the 50% mark and then they'll start closing. Once closings start that might spur more sales for people who are looking to move sooner.

As far as w/d, they probably skipped out on them for either cost or space or for their original concept of it being a building for younger people. If anyone goes to one of the open houses ask them why there's no w/d in the units and see what they say.

Wow! Thank God my Flushing v. Bensonhurst firework has died down. (If you are so happy about your 'hood, why are you even reading this?) :)

After two weeks of hiatus, they just added a few more in-contracts and now the count stands at 50. For them, that's a critical number, passing 20% threshold. This means at least financing is possible now from those "preferred lenders". I actually made a few calls and found out that the rates from the preferred lenders ain't that bad (I was expecting outrageous quotes compared to free market). The catch-22 for all new constructions, percentage sold and financing options, is not unique to be@schermerhorn. So it doesn't make sense to compare this with Toren on financing; from my contacts, most big banks (Chase, BoA, Well Fargo etc.) have set lending threshold at 75% sold. In this context, Toren doesn't have advantage over Schermerhorn.

I, too, am disappointed at the lack of W/D in units but that's not going to be deal breaker for anyone who has lived in NYC. As comp with Oro and Toren goes, I am with the location, location, location camp. I guess the amenities at those two projects make up the location for some. But I can't help but to think about resale value when pricing real estate. And truth be told, when I went to Toren, besides the infamously disinterested sales staff and unusual decor for public areas, the so-called pool was dry; the library was dark and empty; the gym feels depressing with low ceiling ... I am not sure if I would use those amenities if I were living at Toren.

And, I heard that the front of negotiation is really in the closing fees. So even if you believe in those high in-contact prices (remember, they are not publicly recorded sales prices), keep in mind that people may effectively pay a lot less by getting the sponsor to pay more closing costs (and the sponsor is happy to go this route as the sales prices remain high on paper).

I do think paces of sale are comparable. Toren went on sale March 2008, 27 month ago, and is now 50-60% sold. Be@Schermerhorn started 2 months ago and is 20% sold, mostly from the initial wave of buyers, many of them may had canceled contract in the '09 debacle. I would not expect significant price chop again in at least 6-9 months. The Germans are said to have very good mortgage terms; so they may not be in any hurry. My guess is that they will re-price in 9-12 months. However for buyers, the caveat is that most better units in the building will be gone when the next PSF price drop comes.

Agree. I wasn't too impressed with Toren either. I have read articles about how it's ranked better than these other buildings, but I'm still not sure how. This is supposedly critiqued by 'sales agents', etc.

Is it because of the unique shape of that building? lol. I hate to say it, but if a earthquake ever hits NYC, then I do not prefer to live in that building. It might just fall into pieces like jenga.

I haven't visited Oro, but it appears that their maintenance is extremely high. I don't understand these developers. With the economy breaking down, isn't it known to mankind that this is already difficult time to buy a place around 375-400k? I don't grow my money out of trees....

Just out of curiousity, what kind of closing costs would the developer pay?? I think one of the bloggers said something like transfer taxes and sponsors attorney fee. I heard that this is normal now.

What else? I just want to know since I might be considering it.

I, personally believe that be@schermerhorn will be at 50% before the end of the year. Has anyone here made an offer yet?

If so, can you private message me of your negotiations?

The best thing of Toren, I believe, is their marketing team (if you ever toured and got a copy of that 'magazine' you know what I mean). Unfortunately, everything else ranges from mediocre to awful. Geographically, Toren is my limit, Oro is out of bound.

When I toured be@schermerhorn weeks ago, I saw that the NYS unemployment/food stamp office in the next block has the sign taken down and construction permits on the door. I suspect that some of those government buildings are being converted into more rentals and condos -- which should be a positive sign for the area. I hope MTA, nextdoor from be@schermerhorn, also sells the building; at least, that can lower the odd of another MetroCard fare hike! But nobody understands MTA accounting for sure.

I have several chats with brokers, real estate lawyers, etc. They all said the same thing -- buyers paying transfer taxes and sponsor attorney is pre-2008 and totally untrue today. That's one of those crazy phenomenons during the housing bubble (remember bidding war?). These days, the seller should pay those two fees just like any other transaction. Who's the seller here?

I see potential in this building, despite of a few strange things -- like the rooftop cabana and small laundry room. If the few blocks in the vicinity become more developed in 2-5 years, esp. those two ugly buildings occupied by MTA, $550-$650 per sqft may not be a bad investment at all. I won't put too much hope on the Fulton Street Mall though. I walked there a couple of times. Yes, it is getting new sidewalk and benches. But let's face it; until you totally change the composition of the stores, the improvement has got a long way to go.

With respect to the Fulton Street Mall, I wanted to share a link that I saw not too long ago:

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/realestate/commercial/flourishing_fulton_street_dorm_room_iDAEmGIqccgCWRYwYmSXYM

Flourishing Fulton

Long Island University's Brooklyn campus will take the upper floors at 490 Fulton St. for student housing leaving the retail space open in the heart of the Fulton St. Mall.

IT isn't as sexy as the recent boomlet in Midtown office-tower sales, but here's a deal that augurs more immediate change for a property changing hands and its surroundings:

The 250,000 square-foot, mixed-use building at 490 Fulton St. in Brooklyn has been sold to a partnership of Eli Gindi and Stanley Chera's Crown Acquisitions. The deal closed just days ago, too recently to appear in public records, but sources said the price was $60 million-plus.

The five-story address is on the bustling Fulton Street Mall at Bond Street. In a leasing coup simultaneous with the purchase, the new owners signed Long Island University to take 120,000 square feet on the three top floors.

LIU will redevelop the floors for new student housing, and the buyers will put all the retail space below on the market. LIU also leases space in one of the Cheras' other Fulton Street buildings.

"The building at 490 Fulton is at the epicenter of the Mall and will benefit from its location across the street from a new park," crowed Joe Chan, president of the Downtown Brooklyn Partnership, which manages the Fulton Mall Improvement Association.

The Chera family owns or partners in major retail sites around the US, including the high-profile space at the base of 666 Fifth Ave. But it got its start on Fulton Street over 50 years ago.

The Cheras already owned a dozen-odd buildings on the Mall. Isaac Chera, a son of Stanley Chera and a Crown Acquisitions principal, said the shopping stretch "is undergoing transformation as part of the resurgence of downtown Brooklyn."

Welcome new investment has taken hold on the Mall, where the upper floors of many buildings -- although not the Cheras' -- remain vacant.

Its rising fortunes are reflected in the planned openings of H&M, which will occupy a new building being developed by Albert Laboz's United American Land, and Aeropostale, joining a growing influx of more fashionable chains.

"The new stores will bring diversity without excluding the current customer base," Chan said.

Work is also to begin soon on the large, mixed-use project known as City Point on the former Albee Square Mall site.

Chan cited $15 million in streetscape improvements funded by the city's Economic Development Corp., including the new park under construction and upgraded sidewalks, lighting and bus shelters.

Chera said the stores now at 490 Fulton will soon be gone. Its large floor plates could lend themselves to use by a single retail tenant or to a mix. The building extends through to Livingston Street, where it has another set of entrances.

The new owners plan capital upgrades including new elevators, plumbing and utilities.

Chera wouldn't specify asking rents for the stores, but said ground-floor asking rents on Fulton average $250 to $300 a square foot -- an astonishing figure for a stretch dominated by discount stores, but reflecting extraordinary foot traffic. Neighborhood brokers, however, said actual rents were usually considerably below the "ask."

"Every time a national store opens," Chera noted, "It immediately becomes one of the chain's top 10 nationally, in volume."

The Fulton Mall is an anomaly -- a lively corridor of mostly low-priced stores that draw predominantly African- and Caribbean-American shoppers, flanked by mostly white brownstone neighborhoods and a growing thicket of luxury high-rises, such as the Toren condo tower and the all- rental Brooklyner.

The Mall, encompassing more than 200 stores be tween Adams Street and Flatbush Avenue, was created in the early 1980s to arrest the shopping district's decline after depart ment stores like Kor vette and Martin's closed. The only survivor was A&S, which became Macy's in the mid-1990s and remains the retail anchor of downtown Brooklyn.

The mall undeniably gave the area its second wind. Even so, sidewalk hawkers and panhandlers give the blocks a gritty, undisciplined feel.

One morning last week, Macy's shoppers, Realty Check among them, were confronted by an aggressive, in-your-face panhandler -- not on the street, but inside the Fulton Street entrance, presumably not the sort of greeting the store wants for its customers.

But the Mall's rougher edges are likely to be softened by all the new investment and upgrading.

"Once the new stores come in and the sidewalks and the park are finished, you'll see a fantastic street," Chera predicted.

I can say as someone who bought new construction in the last year, you can get the sponsors to pay 1/2 the closing costs. I'm sure they're going to be doing it here too.

Does anyone know when they plan to start closing on these apartments? I heard after 20% was in-contract, but that's now. Anybody heard any other news?

not sure, but I did some research and found out that they just got fha approved. This should spur more demand.
https://entp.hud.gov/idapp/html/f17condo-maint.cfm?key=P011793&phase=001&mode=Q

what's the status of the 15 year abatement? Anyone concerned that it will not be granted by the city?

Does anyone know how sales are going at this building. Looking on their streeteasy site, it seems that most units are already in contract. Is that right?
Thanks

Last update from Curbed.

http://ny.curbed.com/

DOBRO%u2014Zombie building be@schermerhorn in Downtown Brooklyn got preliminary approval for FHA financing, joining the crowded field of buildings offering itty bitty down payments to buyers. There are accepted offers on 42% of the 246 units, and more than half of those have reached the contract inking stage. [CurbedWire Inbox]

This is very good especially since sales started in early June/end of May. Unlike Toren/Oro, there still not even at 50% (supposedly, it's not accurated as they claim).

Thank you NYCRazy.

Since Oro and Toren are way past closing, you can just search acris and count how many units have actually sold. As opposed to Schermerhorn, which claims 42% of the offers are accepted and "more than half" have signed contracts. The web listings say 59 in contract, so thats 24%. Also keep in mind, the F, G, H, and J line comprise almost 1/2 of the sales. Essentially, units around 500 sq ft and under $350k. I don't know the pricing for the rest of the building, but judging from the small sample of available units they seems to be in the 400k range. Point being Schermerhorn has cannibalized the lower end market but how will it fare in 400+k price point that Toren is in? Do you expect a family to buy any of the 2 bedroom units for 500+k and not have a W/D!? Also for 77 cents per sq ft of common charges is rather expensive. Not that I'd ever use a pool, library, basketball court, etc... the gym was super small and most developments has similar common charges with a lot more to offer. The reason why I'm walking away from negotiation is because they're not paying enough of the closing costs to my liking, the tax abatement is not a guarantee, and taxes without the abatement is over $1 per sq ft. Some developments in Williamsburg though slightly more expensive per sq ft are willing to pay the majority of closing costs as they're suffering from the same oversupply as downtown BK.