Co-op board and renovation

If the seller will allow it, and the Board will look at it, it's great to submit the reno plans with the sales application. It means a lot less surprises for everyone. But a lot of seller's brokers and/or Coops won't allow it.

In my building it will likely take 6 months to get approval and be done with the process. Mine might be extreme, but coops require a board package, and an architect to approve it. It is extremely expensive and time consuming, and I'm sure the seller won't tell you that.

I've done many apartment renovations in nyc. Boards are happy to see shareholders update their apt's. It increases the overall value of the building. Usually it is a quick affair... from date of request to date of approval.

Don't let people mislead you. You should review the "ALTERATION AGREEMENT" of your building to give you an idea of what the conditions are.

Thanks - that's helpful. Sounds like this will vary a lot by building. In this case, we aren't talking about moving walls - really just a full replacement of all of the appliances, floors, cabinets, tiles, etc. Does that make a difference?

I had the same questions as spqsydney... my broker (who is very trustworthy) said it is not a problem if the renovations don't involve major things, like taking walls down or anything that involves an architect. Refinishing/painting/tiling should be standard operating procedure for an outdated apartment, no?

It seems that most co-ops would welcome an increase in value to the units in their building.

Process: select architect/designer to do drawings. Submit drawings to building management company for review by coop engineer along with signed alteration agreement provided by management co. Back and forth takes place between building engineer and your architect and drawings are amended as necessary. Meanwhile, you bid out drawings to contractors and review bids. Building approval comes and permits are sought if needed by expeditor hired by architect or contractor takes care of it for a fee. Time: about 8 weeks from closing. Then construction begins. For two bathrooms and kitchen, leave about 3 months to be safe.

Don't underestimate what needs to be done. "Oh, just tiles--no walls." That doesn't mean much. First, you can't move a bathroom or kitchen wall in most coops--fixed rule of no new "wet" over existing "dry" space. You want tiling, but ripping off the old stuff will likely mean putting up new sheetrock which is essentially putting up part of a wall. Electrical update of where outlets and switches and lights are is also to be included. New medicine cabinet that needs to be recessed in different size hole in wall than existing one is bit of work and patching. These things aren't big deal, but realize it isn't so simple and quick. Also, flooring may require new subfloor. Toilet rough-in may need to be replaced, etc.

Kitchen: getting all cabinets demo'd and new ones built, installed, adjusted (because something doesn't fit right at first in every job), appliances hooked up, lighting and electrical...it takes some time.

Materials: if time matters, you must be meticulous about not selecting finishes and items that are backordered or have extended lag times. That custom mix glass tile backsplash you like may take 12 weeks from time of order to even arrive.

Kylewest has just gone through this so he knows. However, it's not unusual where the wrong thing is ordered or shipped or damaged in transit & then reorder can add what? 6 or 8 weeks? Also, I don't know how common it is, but some buildings only allow constuction during the summer months. Be sure you know EXACTLY what you want before you start construction & then don't change your mind; change orders can add significantly to the time & cost of the project.

Kyle's points are on the mark - I would reinforce that it is in the best interest of the board to approve the renovations as it increases the value of units in the building, creating better comps for them down the line. I have never heard of a board flat out refusing a renovation. Also, the board may not require an architect or designer's drawing if your changes are only cosmetic (new tile, swapping out appliances, etc.) - ours didn't. Our board did, however, have an architect review a drawing we made (in Visio) to ensure there was no compromise to the building. If you need a fantastic contractor, we loved ours - email me at otnyc1_@_gmail_._com if you want the contact info.

Thanks everyone for your help and comments. So .... if we are going to bid on a place and we would like, ideally, the kitchen and bathrooms to be revamped (no wall changes) after closing but before we actually move in, do you think the co-op board would be less favourably inclined? Is this something we shouldn't even mention? It seems to me that if we don't mention it and then a few weeks later we submit an application to update kitchens and baths, we are being a bit misleading?

no upside on not being completely straight with them. assuming that you don't want to buy this place if you can't make these changes, why not pleasantly lay out the whole idea?

and before you move in is certainly the best time to do this work so that you don't have to live in a construction zone. Good luck & have fun !!!

I would be honest about what you intend to do. It will help to ask for an alteration package and read it before the interview if the managing agent will provide one to you. Also read the coop rules carefully. It will help show the board you will be sensitive to the building and your neighbors and have your act together. What a coop board wants in most buildings is to enhance values and at the same time sensitivity to the disruption you may cause others.

Board will be very concerned about intentions to extend bath or kitchen beyond current boundries or to do anything weird/out of ordinary. DO NOT think you are going to easily get a toilet with a tank in the wall passed. Or a pot-filler faucet over the stove. Keep it straight forward, and you'll be fine. I felt more comfortable with an architect overseeing things because I know nothing of construction and could not myself know how contractor was doing. Also, when a pipe is unexpectly found in the wall blocking that recessed medicine chest you planned, or the gas line is not placed correctly for the stove and the cabinets have to be pulled out and reinstalled to fix the problem, I didn't have the fortitude to deal with who would be responsible for what. I let the architect deal with it. And even then the process is stressful enough. Having an indisputable, detailed set of drawings can be very key. In my reno, every hinge and knob was specified in the drawings, every tile model number, every faucet and finish, direction of flooring, type of paint to be used, brand of recessed shower light and trim plate. Contract included adopting drawings. Throughout the project there was nothing to debate and budget remained on target--that is unheard of. By spending the money up front for proper drawings and for construction supervision, I saved by having essentially no change orders or delays (I think from closing to move in was 8.5 months and only 14 days of that was caused by any delays).

StreetEasy Folks,

You can't imagine how helpful this has been for us. We previously owned a house in Sydney and it needed only a few small things done to it. Dealing with this in Manhattan is obviously an entirely different experience.

Kylewest,

Do you have a designer/architect you worked with you might be able to reccomend? If so, please drop me an email at KNJYPC@hotmail.com

Many thanks again and please feel free to keep the comments coming.

one of the best (well, most pithy) descriptions I ever heard was "it will take three times as long and cost twice as much as the estimate. But if you're really in a hurry, you can get it done for three times the price and only take twice the time".

"Or a pot-filler faucet over the stove"

A pet peeve of mine: these things are looking for trouble and I would avoid them. they sound like a good idea, but think of the reality: the idea is so that you don't have to fill up a big pot and carry the heavy thing over to the stove from the sink. But the result is that you've got a boiling cauldron on your stove that if anything bad happens is too heavy to grab (and remember it's burning hot so you've got to have some heavy duty mitts on) on move to someplace safe (like that sink it would have been filled up in).

"(I think from closing to move in was 8.5 months"

In other words, don't forget to add 8.5 months carrying cost to your cost of renovation which you won't be able to add to your basis as a capital improvement.

Also, a number of buildings have added caps to the length of time your renovation can last (most common number i have heard is 6 months).

it took me a year from bid to renovation finish/ move in

Kylewest, are you still walking on air over your new kitchen? Hope so!

gotta echo 30yrs_RE_20_in_REO on the pot filler. seems like a great idea except for exactly what he points out.

All the headaches and stress and waiting...TOTALLY worth it. Designing every inch of the space you live in is amazing. I'm late to work every morning now because I don't want to leave the apt. Know what happens when you obsess about every detail and micro manage a reno? You get something incredible. Thanks for asking.

And for me, once again, it was 14 days late and 3% over budget. Do not believe it has to cost double and take 3x as long. It doesn't. But it'll take work.

kylewest, can you recomend your architect or gc

spqsydney - I can recommend a great designer who takes care of everything from start to finish.

www.francoistenenbaum.com

Contact info on website

I am purchasing a co-op with a galley kitchen. I wish to knock the walls out and open the floor plan. The alteration agreement says no wet over dry and makes some allowances (on a case-by case basis) for extension of the kitchen and bathrooms. Do you suppose I could swap loactions of the existing bathroom and kitchen?

One of the consideration is where the toilet is being moved to. If you can use the same drain pipe and just move the location of the rough-in, that sounds do-able to me, but what do I know.

Thanks Kylewest. I negelected to say that the bathroom and kitchen are on opposite sides of the apt. So I could see the kitchen taking the place of the bathroom---but wonder how difficult it is to place a toilet in an area where only a kitchen existed? Thanks.

Josie25 - I see from the other thread you are on a limited budget and I would advise against this. But if you must... I think NYC code calls for a 4" drain for the toilet. Kitchen drain is likely only 2". Its possible the riser/stack in the wall of the kitchen is a larger diameter and can accommodate a 4" toilet drain but you may have to raise the floor to get the 4" pipe to the stack if you are dealing with concrete floors. Messy, costly, etc...

Spinnaker, I know enough only to make me dangerous. I've heard contractors speak of the floor being slab or something else (lathe?) and now I understand why. It is a mid 1980's high-rise construction on the UWS but I don't yet know the answer to what the floor is made of. I hear your advice--the plumbing costs to accomplish this switch on a tight budget may not be doable. Thanks.

Kylewest - would you be comfortable with sharing your architect/designers info? It really sounds like you had a great experience and I would love to avoid mistakes. Please email me at korenmcc@hotmail.com if you are willing to share.

Thanks!

Hi, I agree it means a lot who do you use for planning. You shouldn’t try to deal with the coop approvals on your own. Use professionals it’s worth it. It is true about the long term approvals the better your architect or contractor the faster and easier the approval process and the renovation itself.

Coop/Condo board approvals. I second the use of a professional to help you 1) gain cred and 2) help with multiple submissions to the building architect or to the board, following objections from a fussy building review architect (who is only doing his due diligence and taking care of his client/the building). I am not sure how a non-draftsman can really spend the time dealing with the necessary drawn info to satisfy the technical requirements of todays review standards. Save time = your working time = money, and hire the pro.
Second. Switching bathrooms with kitchens - not to be undertaken lightly, and often in a one bedroom there is physically not the space for the plumbing run drop as previously described. You cannot plug a toilet waste into a kitchen waste line, so there's no question, you cannot simply swop the fixtures around.

Can my coop board tell me which general contractor(s) i MUST use for my renovation or should i be able to choose who i want? There is a rumor in the building that they will give me a difficult time if i do not use one of there contractors who are familiar with the coop.

does anyone has the experience of obtaining relevant permit from DOB? we recently purchased a coop and plan to replace the floor and wall tile of kitchen and bathroom, the board and managing agent insist that we need to obtain a full construction permit to do that? I would think replace floor and wall tile is a cosmetic/decorative project and feel filing a full construction permit is absolutely unnecessary. Can anyone share the information or law regarding this? Thanks a lot