City Real Estate May Face Smoother Ride In 2010

I don't. I am only assuming that if they are going to move home after college to save money or what have you, that they've behave how you tell them. I guess I'd be strict. There seems to be this really long trend out there, from a young age, and I see it on the Upper East Side...that you are to negotiate with your children. The thought that I'd need to buy peace after paying for their college education seems strange to me. Buying peace sounds like being held hostage. Eff that.

check back with us when the time comes. you may be in for some surprises along the way as well. sometimes negotiating with terrorists makes sense.

You have 20-somethings living with you? HA! Wouldn't have happened at my house: kick them out and watch how fast they grow up.

Still waiting for Juicy's answer, and WHERE ARE LICC AND STEVEf?

It will be a while. Maybe I am too hopeful to think my children will view supporting themselves after they graduate college as a goal...or that if they do move home for a few years they will act appropriately. If you dont make a lot of money, then you need roommates and you cant live in Soho.

Yes I dont understand how something that only became common recently is talked about like an inevitability.

That's what happens when incomes are flat for a couple of decades and fixed expenses like rent, health care and student loans go through the roof. Not to mention unemployment among the young

This is all fine and good. However, if they need to life at home, they'll need to understand its not the same as a dorm room. That's not an economics issue. If you allow yourself to be bullied by your children for 20 years, then of course when they move home after college they are going to continue to bully you and then maybe even beat you into paying their rent to get them out of the house.

The other issue is, if you dont get into a great private college, and set up a hope of a good job, then they should probably go to state school. There is no sense incurring the expense and loans for a subpar private education.

Please, please, please. I paid for my undergraduate education, graduate school, graduated college in 1982 which was FAR WORSE than what we're going through now jobwise, and have managed to support myself since I was 18 (I actually started working for pay when I was 8). If your adult children are living with you, it's because you want them to.

This is a generational thing. Current generation gets pushed around by their kids. It starts young, and by the time they're 22 why should it change.

how about the hip deep snow and the three mile (each way) walk?

This isnt about woe-was-Steve...its about the absurdity that is paying your kids rent because they cant behave appropriately in your house when they move in after college graduation...the idea you need to buy peace after you just dropped $100k+ on their education.

Rhino, here's the solution: "You're not living with me, get a roommate your own age. I'm not paying your rent so you can live in SoHo. Try Jamaica."

If your adult children are living with you or you're supporting their lifestyles, you need to watch Intervention.

"how about the hip deep snow and the three mile (each way) walk?"

It was only a 1 mile work and a 45 minute bus ride each way to school. We did have boots, and didn't carry boiled potatoes for warmth.

"1 mile WALK" Sorry!

It's not a "current" generation thing as much as it is a function of whether the parents can afford to help and whether the kids want/need help. If you, as a parent, are in a position to help, you help - much as it may stick in your craw.

It's also an arms race, of sorts. The kids who have some ambition, but need parental financial assistance to get there, often go further than those who have no help.

I'd have to disagree that paying your kids rent helps them get ahead. I actually see people my age, and in many cases the more help they have received the less functional they are. Its not an issue of if you can help, you help. There is an issue here of self esteem and independence. And yes, it is a current generation thing. I don't think years ago people spoke so casually about paying their kids rent into their twenties just because they could afford to do so. What's particularly interesting about the way you phrase it is that you don't seem to even consider the alternative. You phrase it as if you have no choice and as if not doing so has any merit at all as a parental policy.

rhino, do you recall what you were like when you were 22? before you leave for college, it's the "family" home. when you return, it's "their" home. of course there are tensions, you've become a burden (or now they can tell you so). it may even be a better way of life, in some respects, but it's not one most parents expect. i suspect that much of the bad behavior is also caused by parents who resent their children returning, and have a difficult time facing evidence of their adultish but still juvenile behavior.

but this isn't, as 10023 points out, really a new thing. i've been hearing of children having to return home for a number of years. most young adults would gladly bunk with 4 others in a two bedroom in a lesser non-manhattan neighborhood in order to avoid returning home. but without any income, home it is, unless the parent supplies the funds. and the trust fund kid is hardly a new creation either.

steve, good for you. that's how it worked in your family. not all families are the same, have children with the same opportunities, etc.

When these 20-somethings get into a marriage after having lived their whole life with a parent as the plug in their budget, how are they supposed to function? Is it supposed to continue?

Its not a new thing to move home after college. I did so. What is a new thing is parents then negotiating them out the door by paying their rent because the kids don't know how to behave in the house and respect their parents. That's a joke. I moved home to save money for business school. I didn't disturb my parents. End of story. Moving out and having them pay my rent was not on the menu, nor should it have been. We are not talking about trust fund kids as far as I can tell. We are talking about comfortable upper class people with the wherewithal to pay a $2000 +/- for a college graduate.

right now, rhino, many families DON'T have much of a choice. there are simply no jobs, so parents make the choice to let the kids return or to help them leave. under different economic circumstances, there is a great deal more choice, and sink or swim may be a much more viable option.

this is a much broader issue. we need to teach our children financial reality from a very young age. they need to be aware of issues that most parents feel are "inappropriate" to discuss with children. and then we wonder why they seem to think that money grows on trees when they are older. my daughter recently told me that she thought, in preschool, that atms and credit cards were something everybody had equally, and i could get money for free whenever i wanted. sadly, many older kids probably think something not too dissimilar.

Rhino: sure, it continues in some families indefinitely. It would be interesting to do an empirical study as to whether families who help out the younger generation into adulthood "fare" better in the long run.

rhino, how much were health care premiums when you moved out? student loans?

every family is different. you seem to have had a decent relationship with your family. but don't pin it all on the kids. or the parents. family dynamics are complicated. if one family wishes to assist a child with their rent for a certain time period, under certain circumstances, to facilitate a more peaceful family existence, who are you to judge?

"this is a much broader issue. we need to teach our children financial reality from a very young age."

Yes. I am not arguing that moving home is bad. I am arguing that moving home and being a pain in your parents ass is bad. I am arguing that paying their rent to get them out of the house is not the answer, nor is it 'helping' them develop into highly functioning adults. They may need to move home if they cant find a job. Paying their rent is not giving them the right incentive.

AR/Rhino: my daughter was 2 when she said (i) you don't "make" any money, mom, I only see you take money out of the bank machine (ii) when I said I didn't have cash on me to buy something, she told me to use my credit card

" if one family wishes to assist a child with their rent for a certain time period, under certain circumstances, to facilitate a more peaceful family existence, who are you to judge?"

I am to judge in that in my opinion, it is not a good way to raise children...and by children, I guess I am begrudgingly including 24-year-olds in the matter.

how moralistic and one-size-fits-all of you.

I don't think its moralistic to state your opinion. In my opinion if you're adult college-grad children can't coexist peacefully with you and your remaining children (because times ARE hard, and it may be necessary) then thats not an economic issue that's a respect/discipline issue. I don't think the answer to a respect/discipline issue is throwing money at it by paying their rent. I think any board where people state opinions there is a judgement involved. Yes, I think its a bad idea. I am not saying the people who go that route are bad people. I am not sure they are accomplishing their objective, if their objective is to prepare their children to be highly functioning independent adults. Maybe you are telling me that's not the objective. Then by all means.

yes it is moralistic and one-size-fits-all. you are saying that your perceived way of raising children is the only way to raise independent adults. you're assuming that by assisting, or not insisting that a kid returns, perhaps to Iowa with an engineering degree, that you are fundamentally holding back your child's progress.

i find that analysis simplistic.

You are calling me simplistic because we disagree. Perhaps the kid should go to Iowa when they have a job. In the meanwhile, help with plane tickets for interviews. I think it should be pretty simple for you to understand how paying an adult child's rent might undermine their development. This is my opinion. I make no apologies for it. There is nothing one-size about it. You need to brush up on where this conversation started. It started with the premise that living with 22 year old college grad kids is a pain in the ass, therefore paying their rent is a good thing to do. I disagree.

To briefly get back to the OP - what is your point? You pulled two mildly similar quotes from different brokers, nearly two decades apart. So what? Just seems like a big (and humorously misguided) ego trip.

About paying 20-something kids' rent: I am a bit in the middle on this. My 20-something younger brother recently moved here and is having his rent covered by my parents. Was in a 4-month certificate program at NYU (also paid for by them), which he just completed. Not sure what his job prospects are, but he seems to be in no rush, and yet everyone but me thinks this is a-ok. I think they're doing him a big disservice in the long run, but it depends on how he responds in these next few weeks/months, I suppose. But when I see my mom bringing him suitcases full of food every couple months, I shake my head. There's a line to be drawn somewhere.

I should mention he spend 3+ years living at home, working, and saving pretty much all he made prior to this.

"To briefly get back to the OP - what is your point? You pulled two mildly similar quotes from different brokers, nearly two decades apart. So what? Just seems like a big (and humorously misguided) ego trip"

Why is it an "ego trip"? You don't recognize broker spin?

bjw - I'd be grateful for your parents. He could be hitting you up to crash with you seeing you own in WB.

"In 2009 I made over double my income from previous years. My operating costs were also dramatically lower."

So you made 11 bucks versus 5 bucks last year? Or, you lost one million last year, and lost 2 million this year.

"I'm glad I didn't listen to you TOOLS on this board"

Because your goal is to lose money?

> Steve do you think the people who bought in 1990 regret that decision now? Tool

Except, perfitz, you didn't tell people to buy in 1990, you told them to buy in 2007 and 2008. The vast majority of folks who bought RE in that time as in investment would regret that decision if making money was their goal.

So, as always, its a good thing nobody listens to perfitz.

> (and I am always civil)

ha.

Your younger brother is the example. There is clearly something wrong with living in Greenwich village and being in no rush on your parents nickel in your twenties. He is already responding by being in no rush. Classic.

Rhino, to be fair, he's not living in the village - he's in Brooklyn as well, and rent's fairly cheap. But still, like you, I'm bothered by it. My prodding has rubbed my parents the wrong way, but hopefully he gets some kind of employment in the next few months.

"Why is it an "ego trip"? You don't recognize broker spin?"

Seems like you just enjoy laughing at LICC or JuiceMan. I get it - you don't agree with them. As for broker spin, when it happens, it's self-evident, especially to Streeteasy folks. So again, what's your point?

Well I do enjoy laughing at LICC and JuiceMan, but there are many others (and even a whole other thread) about "Have we hit the bottom yet?"

No.

Why should your brother get a job? That sounds fun. What if the job doesn't cover his bills? Will your parents cover the difference? Till when? Should your brother consider his costs when choosing a profession or should he count on a subsidy regardless. Funny thing will probably happen. Whatever job he gets will not cover his expenses. Rent subsidies beget rent subsidies. He will never learn how to weigh lifestyle vs compensation because he won't have experience of it. Good times. Lemme guess the certificate was more an interest then something employable. Sure whatever. Do what you like and let your parents worry about your bills.

No, I don't have my 23 year old very well-educated WASP male living with me ----- I fork over the $650 a month to pay his rent in a Manhattan uptown apt. he shares with guys his age ---- the 3 are college students/graduate students in NYC, and they have various part time jobs ----- but they need the support of parents still.
He's arty. He takes classes. He works a little bit. I'm not going to force him to hold down three part time jobs to earn his keep.
Also, it's worth it to me NOT to have him living with me. I adore him and he adores me, but our life styles are different .......
NYC10023 knows what she's talking about.
So does about ready
So does Stevejhx.
Rhino ---- my son respects me. I respect him. But a full-blooded young 23 year old male living with his beautifully vintage mom who's 50 just isn't too great for either of us. And the 20-somethings are in a sucky situation in that the only part time jobs are at McDonalds and such ...........
Rhino ------- you will learn. You will learn. And acting the hard-ass male doesn't actually work, to tell you the truth.

Really? So paying your 20-somethings bills is inevitable? Sure it is.

PL, if he wants to live like an artist you should let him. What incentive does he have to get you to stop paying $650 a month? He can move to Jamaica.

At least he lives low. My biggest question would be when and how does this arrangement end?

My children will learn to consider money and lifestyle in their career choice. I'm not going to pay their bills for their twenties while they flutter around. And don't pretend it's this economy. This bs happens in every market.

Rhino, I get your point, but you're making quite a few assumptions as well. I'm not willing to write him off just yet - he still has a chance to make this right and worthwhile, in my view. I'm concerned, but not at the point you're describing. He's been given the opportunity to do what he loves to do - I think that's a good thing, provided he really goes after it in the end. The questions is how short do you make the leash, not whether you should place one at all (not sure if that's what you're implying, but some might read it as such).

Rhino: may it work out for you and your children. May they be wonderfully adjusted, well-educated, motivated individuals who earn their keep and then some.

As for our family, who knows? In our extended family, slackers don't always remain slackers, overachievers burn out, bad things happen to people and sometimes they can deal and sometimes they can't. It's not clear whether paying a 20-something's rent or subsidizing his/her lifestyle is a bad thing or a good thing in the ultimate long run. Certainly, outside my family, people have been indulged and no harm come to them; people have been told to "grow up" and not turn out well.

I certainly considered money and lifestyle in every single personal decision I've made. I'm pretty hard-headed. Not sure that if I had been more impractical, if things would have been any worse.

good for you rhino. just like with matt's tipping, it's your decision. this may have begun with poorish's issue, but you quickly made it a societal one.

poorish didn't say her child will never learn to be a functioning adult, that he isn't making every effort, she simply is saying it's worth the $650 to improve their quality of life. i've met adults who had no help who are productive, and those who've never had to worry about a cent and had their parents pay for their down payments also be quite productive. and of course otherwise for both scenarios as well. simplistic.

I think the leash is live at home until you can afford to move out. I've seen too many subsidized into their thirties.

You can say youre not necessarily undermining the maturing process. I disagree. Good luck.

I'm of the nurturing school ............. but I'm also pragmatic ....
It's hard for people in their early 20's who've grown up in the weirdness of Manhattan ----- private schools, lots of peer pressure various ways and various reasons, etc. etc.
And too many of these young folks actually become drug-involved to relieve the pressure ------- and/or they commit suicide or OD.
We've got to take care of them and support them ---- they're the future.
Things are just not that supportive of them society-wise. No jobs. No heath insurance. An f'd-up infrastructure. The US becoming 2nds world before their eyes .........

I bet he can find enough money to date a hot chick (or guy, or both), but not enough to pay his rent.

If I'm right, cut the leash.

think of this one more way....using poorish's example.

$650 a month is not likely to turn a potentially productive citizen into a bum. if $650 a month can preserve the parent's piece of mind, i.e. not having to live with a 22-23 year old, that seems like a great investment.

can be re-visited at any time with reasonable notice and in the meantime, peace in the family.

Poorish city kids need special care?

Maybe the answer was leave NYC and you're guilty.

Call it convenient and worth the money. Don't call it virtuous or deny it undermines maturity. Don't pretend it's the only way. Don't pretend city kids are delicate flowers. Irony is that people argue with me that their city raised kids are more savvy and independent. Joke.

And I always thought the danger of raising kids in Manhattan was that they become jaded or too New York centric. Sounds like kids raised here are not, in fact, the future.

What do those original quotes have to do with me or with anything I have said? And do you really think NYC now is comparable to 1990, when we had rampant crime and over 2200 murders a year?

As for living at home or having parents pay your rent when you are in your mid-twenties- unless you are finishing up grad school, I find it sad. Get out of the nest and be responsible for yourself already.

Some of the condition improvement is captured in the price improvement! Some would say more! Again, its captured in rents, which have been outpaced by values by a factor of two conservatively since 1999, never mind 1990.

"$650 a month is not likely to turn a potentially productive citizen into a bum. if $650 a month can preserve the parent's piece of mind, i.e. not having to live with a 22-23 year old, that seems like a great investment."

It doesnt nec make them a bum but it undermines their development plain and simple. Like buying an apartment, one you decide to pay your adult child's rent, there are 1001 reasons to justify it as good or at least not bad. Its nonsense.

I'm not saying it's good; I'm not saying it's bad. It's reality at this point in time. Smell the coffee. "Undermines their development," my ass. That's old school puritanical Calvinism. Very American of you. But not in touch with reality.

Right the pendulum has swung so far the other way, that its now inappropriate of me to suggest college grads should support themselves or stay at home until they can. My apologies. I guess its not reality to suggest that after a (presumably) prep school education and a private college that a personal become an adult and support themselves or suffer the 'stigma' of living at home until they can. Miss, its your reality that your delicate flower needs you to pay his rent while he explores his art. You make it reality by perpetuating it. What other lead is he to follow.

You should feel guilty, at some level, because its your generation that allowed the Republicans to drive this country into the dirt...and is now stealing from your children to prop the value of its retirement assets...making it great to be rich and shitty to be anything else.

Are you really telling me its not reality that I can raise a child that would support themselves at 24? Does it sound funny to you when you put it that way? You are in your own cramped Manhattan reality. Yes, among prep school 'elites' it is assumed that 20-somethings are incapable of supporting themselves in the manner to which they are accustomed. However, this is not the only reality out there.

You are making a big to-do about not wanted to share your apartment with your grown kid. This is not really about what is good and bad for him. The irony of you lecturing me about the 'reality' of child rearing that I need to accept is that you have arguably not finished the job. You haven't raised you son into adulthood.

LICC: "What do those original quotes have to do with me or with anything I have said?"

Uhm, maybe the value of real estate?

"And do you really think NYC now is comparable to 1990, when we had rampant crime and over 2200 murders a year?"

I don't think the articles or I mentioned crime. I'm comparing the realtor spin from back then and now. You know, "The market's hit bottom already...."

What's your opinion, LICC?

Does anyone know of any other major real estate correction in Manhattan that played out in less than a year? A precedent would help.

I've given my prediction for this year already steve.

Also, steve tries to laugh at me, but he always winds up just making himself look foolish.

"steve tries to laugh at me"

No, that's not true. I don't "try."

Not ttrue. I laugh with the gay translator. Licc I laugh 'at' you ;)

Who is doing any laughing at bears right now and why?

poorish, rhino is just unhappy that you are "falsely" supporting the real estate market.

i truly hope that if i become infirm at 60, for some reason single and in need of assistance in any way, my child doesn't say gee, mom, i really think it's poor form of you to need me now. i wasn't anticipating helping until 70, a much more realistic age for the elderly to need assistance, so you're on your own.

a family is a family. in good times and bad.

I wonder if that ha-ha listing I posted on another thread was one of petrzitz's "conversions."

Only he would think a walk-up dump is worth that much - it's "special," because it's "his"!

That's pretty rich. So now a 24-year-old is like an infirm granny. I think you are making this a "Great Recession" issue to make me seem insensitive...rather than the child rearing issue that it is. Subsidy knows no season. I am sure your little 'starving artists' will have their hands out in good times and bad. Enjoy it, its what you have taught them.

Two years ago I paid off my mother's mortgage as a gift, and she didn't pay my way through college or anything else. She did, however, raise me to be responsible for myself.

Like I said, he can afford a date, he can afford rent.

about and Rhino - please, stop this bickering over child-rearing, and remember the love that brought you together in the first place. I'm still having a hard time dealing with the sarandon/robbins breakup, I can't handle the end of another golden couple.

My father in law called my wife this Christmas. My sister in law had gotten married this past summer. We gave cash as a gift, at their request. My father in law suggested we give cash for Christmas toward the (belated) honeymoon. My point is, its a slippery slope. Childrens expectations adjust. I have yet to meet the peer who's rent was paid who wasn't still receiving one subsidy or another from their parents in good times and bad. My father in law is still treating his daughters like children in their 30s. When my now-brother in law and I were on our way to the supermarket to get groceries last summer...my sister in law asked her dad if he gave us money for the groceries. It can become a joke quickly and easily.

aboutready's philosophy on everything is to leach off of others. Rent stabilization, soak the rich with taxes to give handouts to others, pay for your children's rent even into their 20s so you can have them support you when you are 60. How about some individual responsibility and hard work.

And hard medicine, like buying a fringe neighborhood at the top and living with that upside down mortgage. Yeah!

If "individual responsibility and hard work" only get you to Long Island City, then on second thought maybe mooching isn't that bad after all.

Rhino... Twenty-five years ago I shared your views concerning my expectations of my kids behavior. I swore what I would and, would not do with my kids in regards to money, education, sex, drugs, etc etc. Now my boys are 26 and 28 and I've broken every one of my promises. Let's just wait and see what you do as your kids grow up.

Or like rhino being called out for being wrong on every prediction he has made on these boards.

I'd rather make one incorrect prediction (that prices would fall last fall), and one correct one (that they would fall this year)...then make one real bad purchase!

Dreamer, I am not saying doing the right thing isnt difficult. What I am saying is that dependence breeds dependence...and not allowing your kids to grow up is not allowing them to grow up. Its like a pre-emptive war...where does it end?

steve, an old man who has been renting for over ten years is trying to opine on my success. Ha!

That's ok rhino, just ignore that thread from a week ago where someone set forth 4 or 5 of your predictions, about real estate and stocks, that all turned out to be stupidly wrong.

Is LIC a place where successful people go? It strikes me as a place where people go to squint and pretend theyre in a nice part of Manhattan.

I've never made predictions about stocks on this board. I did promote gold (much lower than here). Like I said, it makes you and printer feel good about your questionable decisions joust bears. The jury is already out, you made a bad purchase. You can't even get history right, never mind predictions.

How much of your net worth has been lost on a mark to market basis on this condo you own?

"trying to opine on my success"

Yet again, I don't need to "try."

It's plain to see - you live in a ghetto in the middle of nowhere and pay more for it than I pay to live in a large modern high-rise with unparalleled views and spend your free time "opining" on real estate located somewhere where you DON'T live.

How sad is that?

LIC has a great mix of young, smart, successful, fun people who are enjoying their lives and the people around them. That is one reason that people like steve and Rhino just wouldn't fit in at all.

I bet the happiest people there are the renters that decided not to buy.

"LIC has a great mix of young, smart, successful, fun people who are enjoying their lives and the people around them."

http://queenscrap.blogspot.com/2009/02/queensbridge-houses-raided.html

Those people?

Sorry, but it's a bit pathetic to be so obsessed by knocking someone's neighborhood incessantly, steve. I'll save the money from your stand-up shows, thanks.

Can you knock someones neighborhood if they call you a liar when you show actual data from the 1990s...then applauds someone who fabricates your past predictions?

Rhino, my comment was directed at steve. Whatever beef you have with LICC, it's certainly not full of the same kind of histrionics. The guy has an unholy obsession.

bjw, I'll miss you at my shows. Fortunately the stage lights are so bright you can't see the audience, so I won't know you're missing.

LICC, if LIC is such a great place why don't you stop blogging about Manhattan and start blogging about something you know about?

That'll be a short list.

steve, there are NYC housing projects on 54th and 10th. You live closer to projects than I do!

rhino, I showed that your supporting data was inadequate, and that your conclusions were wrong. You have a bad combination of arrogance and mediocre intelligence. You should try to deal with that without looking stupid by lashing out at others.

LICC, I am not sure what your agenda is behind denying that price to rent ratios are much much higher today then they were in 1999. That was the crux of our argument. Numerous people corroborated the data I found their own specific anecdotes. Several others thanked me for finding such on-point information. Its just history. Stop crying about it. I live in a nicer neighborhood than you do. I don't have an underwater mortgage. I don't need to pretend than Long Island City is a nice place. Who is mediocre?

You deny there was a bubble to feel less stupid about buying into a shithole nabe at peak. That is what you should try to deal with.

Rhino, I showed actual primary source data that showed you were wrong. Specific anecdotes?? That is lame. There are plenty of "specific anecdotes" that contradicted your conclusions as well. Several other people, in fact many other people, have also criticized you on this board for your bad predictions and low-level comments.

I don't know and don't care where you live. I live in a great area that is well-liked by lots of people. What you think, doesn't matter to anyone.

I've owned for 12 years. My mortgage and financial situation are just fine, thank you. How long have you been renting? . . .