New, 'hot' neighborhood alert?

it's all about the highline and if you look at the prices, they are high because of it.

I live in the neighborhood, and it has been happening in fits and starts over the past several years/decade with the opening of several higher-end business and restaurants on 9th Ave, and many galleries on 2oth, 21st, 22nd, etc., and the building of huge condo projects that resulted from a recent re-zoning of the area, and the development of the waterfront/residential on the West Side Highway. Note that the Hudson River Park has and is undergoing a huge transformation as well, particularly with the new segments opening along the Hudson just north of 23rd and Chelsea Piers. In the past 6 months, pedestrian traffic west of 9th has absolutely exploded since the opening of the highline. On most weekends the highline is so crowded that IMHO it is not worth going up. True - many of the new "luxury" buildings are now sitting empty with few or no buyers, but it is nonetheless inevitable that west Chelsea is now meatpacking district north -- which is great, or....not so great depending on your perspective.

Does the nabe have a name yet? As soon as you give it a name, the chains and overdevelopment will come. Let's call it "High20." Sorry for the cynicism, but I lived in Soho in 1996, and Meatpacking in 1999. Meatpacking didn't really have a name then; it had actual meat -- smelly meat, in the summer, in bins on the sidewalk, and sides of meat hanging on meat hooks, sliding from the trucks to the warehouse, over the sidewalk. Can't imagine living in those nabes today. I miss the old downtown nabes.

that's what's weird about chelsea, numerous neighborhoods are being enveloped by "traditional" chelsea, and they're all becoming a part of that chelsea (although i'm not buying the 34th street cut-off).

i lived in chelsea in the mid-80's. at the risk of being accused of being anti-progress, i miss the old chelsea also. although not so much the meat packing district of those days. edgy and interesting is good, desolate and potentially dangerous may have some limited charms, but as a female the benefits to the neighborhood did not outweigh the bad (mid to late 80's).

this nabe has already been hot for the past 2 years.. i would say NoChe (north chelsea) is the next up&coming sopt since HK is already fully settled (10th ave has bloomed).. as any good realtor knows, in terms of the next 'it' spot, simply follow the gay butt sex.

SEJunkie, given your name and the area's pretentious pretensions, let's just call it "The Highline Mainline" and get it over with.

AR, I spent a lot of time in the meatpacking district back then, and the potential dangers never manifested themselves ... at least I never heard of any incidents. Horrible odors and badly thrown-together tranny hos, and sometimes the combination of the two -- yes.

dark and relatively uninhabited neighborhoods are things that young women usually avoid, unless there's a compelling reason to avoid the rules. ah, i'm not saying it was dangerous per se, and i'm the girl who lived on 46th b/t 9th and 10th (or 8th and 9th, can't quite recall) during the late '80's, but there really wasn't anything calling me to the meatpacking district at that time (maybe one or two clubs, but if i went i was more than a little wasted, and with a few people).

Frizbe on the Highline...not so much fun.
'
Little help please.........

come toss the b in tompkins square park.

falco, it's great to see you around more often, but i'm sadly disappointed in the apparent improvement in your spelling. it clearly represents too much mental organization, and not enough artisitic expression. hell, i think yesterday you posted something without a spelling typo? punctuation might have been a bit off, but obviously that i understand.

Highline has definitely already had a HUGE impact... and it isn't even finished.

Absolutely, a lot of growth to come here, but I think much of that has been priced in.

'92 came hogs and heifers, I think that was my first non-meat trip to meatpacking (no puns intended)

> Meatpacking in 1999. Meatpacking didn't really have a name then; it had actual meat

I remember calling it meatpacking well before '99. Besides Hogs, I remember gigs at the cooler.

I also knew meat people who called it meatpacking...

alanhart, yes, I love the Internet! As in the famous New Yorker cartoon: "On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog." ... I am the farthest thing from a druggie you could imagine (unless you count red wine), thus I am laughing at your inference and what led to it. I guess I need to be more careful of my choice of pseudonyms! ;-)

i feel your pain, junkie, aboutready had multiple implications when i selected it (one involving lou reed in a movie, anyone recognize the reference?), and i have long regretted my choice.

aboutready, Do you miss the edginess of the old Manhattan? It has apparently moved to Brooklyn.

aboutready, has anyone pointed out that if you reverse your name to "readyabout," you are now using a sailor's term?

falcogold1, too funny, frisbee on the Highline. Maybe they can install some netting on the sides like at the Chelsea Piers driving range, to catch stray frisbees, and dogs that go leaping for them.

Gaslight was one of the first ones in Meatpacking - I know the owners and they almost had to pay people to come over there and they needed tons of security

> aboutready, Do you miss the edginess of the old Manhattan? It has apparently moved to Brooklyn.

Actually, its the new in town yuppies we used to complain about that moved to Brooklyn. I for one am thrilled that the stroller set loves Brooklyn. I think its been a while since any of the popular brooklyn neighborhoods really had any edge either.

Gaslight was definitely always there.
I remember when Fatboys was built to, later to become Lotus. The walls were all in white tile like a bathroom or subway station. Designer should have been shot.

so gaslight was what i was dimly recalling.

junkie, sadly or luckily i'm too old to really be searching for that elusive edginess. happily i hang out mostly in the east village, so i get enough to nourish my old cranky soul.

get this, a bunch of us old farts went dancing at the pyramid club (yes it still exists) not long ago. still a lot of b&t but it was fun.

when i moved to NYC in 90 i think it was called meatpacking. Only went over there because of Florent and Lee's Mardi Gras (was a drag queen store!). Was MARS over there too?

Yeah, Mars was there, around 13th & some little bit that they removed to widen the West Side Highway.

It was known to the meat workers as "the Meat Market", and only took on the Meatpacking District name after somebody -- City Planning? -- stuck it on, presumably to avoid the prostitution implication of "Meat Market". I spent a ton of time there in the late 70s and early 80s, because good friends lived on Little West 12th St. and at 14th and Washington.

i miss hell, not SUPER old but great bar.

I miss Hell's bathrooms: 'Laverne' and 'Shirley' photos were the two choices!

There is still a sign for the "meat market" on 14th?

It was absolutely called the Meat Market to natives and the indigenous industry. I grew up a couple of blocks away and my mother worked in the Meat Market for many years (later she worked in what's now Tribeca. How rich would I be if I'd followed my mother's career with RE investment?) I never thought of the area as particularly edgy or dangerous until the crack epidemic brought out the worst in the tranny hos. I just think its a damn shame that so many neighborhoods that used to support jobs are now residential havens for the chic set. Meat Market and Tribeca being two of them, the Garment District will no doubt follow within a decade or two. I know there are many factors involved beyond RE gentrification, globalization and containerized shipping being two. But having grown up with a working waterfront, a "Choo Choo train" (the train that actually ran on the High Line..and by the way, would it have been so bad to put light rail service there when the Far West Side has no transport and there is already a vast waterfront park) and a vibrant economically and ethnically diverse population, I find Disneyland for Yuppies somewhat depressing.

Rio Mar had character.

riazor still lives. although now the awning isn't falling down and the card tables and folding chairs have been replaced by real tables and chairs. but the sangria pitchers are still yellowish plastic.

Rio Mar was phenomenal, although less so when they installed brighter lights or painted the wall whiter or whatever they did, and ruined the jukebox selections. Similarly, "Rio Mar Square" was amazingly romantic, seeming almost to have been lit by gaslight, until they installed prison-yard lighting and ruined the whole thing.

Delicious as the food was at Rio Mar, the best part was Roberto, who had a magic ability to sense that you wanted something and just suddenly appear half a second later, even when you were upstairs and he pretty much wasn't ... but would stay the fuck out of your face the rest of the time and let you enjoy your dinner.

I've never eaten at Riazor, but every time I've considered it it just seemed all wrong. Please tell me *I'm* all wrong, and it's worth going to.

riazor is the same family. the chicken riazor is great, as are the camarones and the chuletas, avoid the paella. i liked it better when it was more on the seedy side (some very interesting clients at the bar) but it's been slipping back into decline recently, and is beginning to approximate the old riazor. most of the waitstaff have been there at least ten years, but they always seem to have one newbie, and your experience will be less enjoyable if you don't get one of the old-timers. it used to be breathtakingly cheap, also, not as much so now.

i may be biased, however. i lived for a year next door in 1985, so i've been going there for 25 years.

Alanhart I am sure you were dancing at jackie 60 as well. It was at 14th and wash. I loved mars! I had my 26th? Bd there.

somewhereelse,

Was MEPA called the Slaughter House many of years ago?

"Do you miss the edginess of the old Manhattan? "

YES!!!!!

As for the "far West 20s", I really don't see the appeal. Most of us need quick and daily access to the subway, and it's a LONG ASS hike from Eleventh Avenue to even the westernmost subway line, the A train.

And can someone explain the appeal of the High Line to me? It's basically an elevated sidewalk to nowhere.

@NYCMatt: The Highline to me is a wonderful use of what was an old rusting eyesore, you cannot have enough green space in the city. Walk it when it's not full of tourists, I bring my lunch up and read a book and just chill out. Walk the Highline and don't judge it, it really is quite nice. Nothingness can be very appealing if not understood.

Actually, Mutombonyc, the Slaughter House was much farther uptown. Hell's Kitchen was often referred to as a slaughterhouse as in "Slaughter on 10th Avenue" but the real operating places where they killed animals were around 125th street. You used to be able to see the shells of them from the West Side Highway--they were closed down well before World War II, possibly in the early part of the 20th century. New York was never Chicago!

Liz, I thought the NY Slaughterhouse was the land the UN now comprises on the East River. Meatpacking District in its original form--good times--grin

read vinegar hill is new hot neighborhood in brooklyn

lizyank,

The Anvil.

http://www.disco-disco.com/clubs/identify-clubs.shtml#A

mutombonyc,
I am also under the impression that a sigificant amount of meat packing was done where the UN now sits. This is the reason that most large windows in Tudor city don't point east. Might make an interesting NYC history lesson. The Turtle bay was once a busy shipping area. When??? I'm not sure.

> I am also under the impression that a sigificant amount of meat packing was done where the UN now
> sits

I always thought that was slaughtering, not just meat packing. Big difference.

"And can someone explain the appeal of the High Line to me? It's basically an elevated sidewalk to nowhere."

Can anyone explain the appeal of central park to me? Its basically an open field.

And that damn MOMA. Its just a building with walls.

It's not JUST an elevated sidewalk to nowhere -- it's a massive rusting iron-structured sidewalk to nowhere that prevents future rapid-transit in an underserved corridor, masquerading as a park, and a block from a real park on miles of riverfront.

What rapid transit is it preventing? The 11th avenue subway?

light rail ... I believe it continues in a ditch through at least the mid-40s.

So, its "preventing" something that noone wants, noone has suggested, and doesn't make sense (and could probably still happen anyway). Awesome.

Well, seriously, its not actually true...

> I believe it continues in a ditch through at least the mid-40s.

You're confusing it with something else.... those "ditches" you speak of are part of the...

lincoln tunnel.

(high line ends near the water below 34th).

and its "high" because its elevated.

Alan, you and I are on the exact same page regarding the high line. That neighborhood needs another park like 3rd avenue in the 20s needs another frat bar. Transportation? Kind of developing a residential neighborhood in the most transit friendly city in the country (world?) when the farthest west BUS is on 10th avenue and you have to schlepp to 8th for a train.

And yes, I remember the Anvil. And most of the other clubs on that list. (I see at least two errors.) A couple of years ago, word got out among the young gay guys in my office that I had grown up in West Village during the 1970s. I spent several lunch hours answering questions and drawing a picture of a lost world that, like most of that ilk, sounds way more romantic in retrospect. Felt like I was teaching Gay History 101 but at least my "students" valued the story and those who lived it (many of whom of course tragically died in years following.)

"It's not JUST an elevated sidewalk to nowhere -- it's a massive rusting iron-structured sidewalk to nowhere that prevents future rapid-transit in an underserved corridor, masquerading as a park, and a block from a real park on miles of riverfront."

BINGO.

It serves absolutely no purpose.

tourist love it... there is something nice about it. Agreed the money could have been used elsewhere.

It serves a purpose, just not one that comes anywhere near realizing its potential. And it blocks the much better purpose. And the City will remain permanently responsible for maintaining its rusting old structure at massive expense, while the "Friends" kick in a little money to replace the petunias each year.

I like it. If you believe that the 2nd Ave will ever get built, then maybe it's possible that there will be a Far West rapid transit option...

But with a grade-separated right-of-way already in place for the Village-to-Midtown part, the cost for a far west light rail would be negligible compared to 2nd Ave. They could even use it for bus rapid transit, like the elevated one south of Miami.

"tourist love it"

Who the fcuk cares about what they think??

This area of the far west 20's is actually really really nice. It's close enough to anyplace downtown to walk to yet it's not in the extreme scene of meatpacking madness. The galleries make for easy drop-in entertainment and free cultural experiences, te restaurants are great, the bike path and exercise opps are abundant, Chelsea Piers, the new Hudson park, if you bike or walk or run or skate, it's phenomenal being next to the river. Great summer breezes, you feel like you're on an island. OMG, it is an island. I forgot.
Walk to the theater district, crosstown bus all the way east or take 10th avenue bus uptown.
Anyone I know who has visited the highline thought it was a real treat, BTW tourism brings in money to NYC which we are gonna need here.
You have to get rid of that NIMBY I was here first cynical 'tude. Places change, and some of it's really really nice.

Maybe the High Line does have a purpose...if it keeps the tourists the hell out of Hudson River Park and allows natives/residents to enjoy it, that does account for something. Recompense for the wasted transit opportunity? Don't think so...

Re: "It's not JUST an elevated sidewalk to nowhere -- it's a massive rusting iron-structured sidewalk to nowhere that prevents future rapid-transit in an underserved corridor, masquerading as a park, and a block from a real park on miles of riverfront."

hey alan "Robert Moses" hart:
- rusting -- no, it was sandblasted, repaired and repainted and looks wonderful.
- sidewalk to nowhere - no, it's elevated urban architecture that's ALSO a PARK
- prevents rapid transit - no, the 10th Ave buses and A train are still running and the odds that BILLIONS of dollars worth of "light rail" (LOL!) would ever have been installed there INSTEAD were ziltch
- underserved corridor - no, how about it is and should remain a quiet mixed residential/commercial neighborhood that doesnt NEED more mass transit

"looks wonderful", 2010 ... 2020 and beyond? Or is it a temporary installation?

"it is and should remain a quiet mixed residential/commercial neighborhood" ... that's rich, given that the next word out of everyone's mouth regarding High Line is "change".

And you do know that the High Line was Robert Moses' first project, right?

FYI!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meatpacking_District,_Manhattan

> BINGO.
> It serves absolutely no purpose.

Yeah, just like central park.

It always amuses me, the people who make the nonsense claims of adding or not adding value. One calculated that central park has X revenue and Y expenses, so it loses us money.

The moronic thing about it, is leaving out the extra taxes we collect because of its existence. 5th avenue apartments cost what they do (partially) because of the park... how much are the extra taxes on some of the world's most valuable property? and not just RE taxes, of course...

http://www.forgotten-ny.com/NEIGHBORHOODS/meatpacking/meat1.html