Want to Create Jobs At No Cost? End H1B

Let's be clear: it isn't access to the global talent pool that distorts
investment decisions. It's access to that global talent pool through the
failed regulatory structure of the H-1B and labor certification that
provides a subsidy, guaranteeing inefficient and even counterproductive
economic decisions.

"END THE H1-B visa program!"

Works for me.

I don't know about this. If you guys mean that H1-B encourages over-investment in tech because the government allows highly skilled technical talent in from overseas while prohibiting other kinds of immigrants, then I might agree. But if that's the case, then the solution should be to give all industries an easy way to attract foreign talent.

If people get businesses running here, I think that is good for everyone in the long run, and I don't care if they come from Mexico or Mars.

This post is stupid. Companies face a great deal of red tape re visas and foreign workers. They prefer to hire qualified citizens. The h1-b visa is a solution to a poorly trained work force. Perhaps more parents need to encourage their children to become engineers, mathematicians an scientists. Many of those granted visas eventually become citizens who pay taxes.

parents dont need to do it, how about society.
hmmm, lets see, i could go to engineering school, and work my ass off for 4 years, to top out at $100k, $200k if i'm lucky. or I could go to business school, party for 4 years, and then make a minimum of $100k in 10 years.

hmmm, thats a tough one. or i could go to law school, make even more.

we are screwed. china, india, eastern europe, they still like their engineers, and treat them well, or at least try to. here, only a sucker would go into engineering. which is why that is where we get most of our engineers from outside.
stop letting the h1b's in, maybe the compensation for engineers will go up and make more kids want to go into it. and soon, the infrastructure will become so crappy here that no h1b's will want to come here anymore, and problem will be solved.

btw, why is this post on this site?

"END THE H1-B visa program!"

Most of them make less than Americans.

Go home and make your own jobs...

As a former H1-B, I assure I made just as much as, and often more than, my US-based colleagues. The number of H1's are down significantly this year, haven't even met the quota. These individuals bring much needed skills to the US - in the long-run, they significantly increase the competitiveness of the US. If not here, they would end up in Canada, or in their country of origin, or somewhere else, adding to their growth. A lot of these H1's are PHDs, and specialists in other areas that add to US growth and productivity. Ending this program will not create jobs in the US, it will create jobs elsewhere.

Supply and demand is the basic foundation of microeconomics.

If you increase the supply of workers with loose immigration policy, then wages will go down.

Furthermore, our country is already too crowded. We don't need any more people living here. They compete for limited real estate, which increases everyone's cost of living at the same time while they are lowering salaries.

Squarefoot - qualified and accomplished engineers may top out at $200K, but so do a majority of MBAs and JDs. Look up the stats by job description.

> Furthermore, our country is already too crowded. We don't need any more people living here.

Actually, we don't need any more idiots living here. We have plenty.

I am more than happy to have talented, energetic folks crowding out the idiots. Its what made this country great in the first place. Immigrants built this country.

Btw, the title of this thread seems to demonstrate that the OP doesn't actually understand what "creating jobs" is.

"Immigrants built this country."

And now they're destroying this country.

Back in the 1970'w, when US population was about 1/3 lower, the chattering class was deeply concerned with
deepletion of nonrenewable resources in the U.S., in particular our five major ground aquifers, our rivers,
agricultural soil, which wears out every time a crop is sown, and forest land.

Now the chatterers essentially ignore those legitimate concerns, which are being aggravated by immigration,
even though at least one oif the five aquifers is drying up and even though we are experiencing increasing water
supply problems and competition in California and its SW neighbors.

Our higher population has also increased the competitiveness and pressures of live here, as well as basic
living costs for the American underclass, i.e., the 80% of Americans who in 2009 accounted for only 39.4%
of consumer spending, and forced us to live much more crowded and lower quality livesw.

As to the needed skills argument, there are millions of Americans who would be happy to train for the jobs we
give to foreignors, including many who would like to be trained for those jobs, and many who have risked their
lives for our nation and people.

So I think as much as possible we should steer jobs to our own citizens. It makes a lot more sense as well
economically, sinceit increases the wealth and living standards of existing citizens.

""Immigrants built this country."

And now they're destroying this country."

NYCMATT so your ancestor are indians as native americans?

Vancouver has a great deal many immigrants and the impact has been most positive. The economy is booming.

This is typical. economy going down and specific group of individuals take the blame...
Haven't we seen it before?History repeating...

"specific group of individuals take the blame"

Let's be clear that I'm not blaming immigrants: I'm blaming LIBERALS for letting them into the country.

bob_d, who should I blame for letting you or your ancestors into this country?

bob_d, so you too? your ancestors are native americans? or they immigrated to the US?

What year define "welcomed immigrants" to "not so welcomed immigrants"?

I don't feel guilty about being born in the United States, therefore I don't feel that we need to give away our legacy to people who weren't born here.

It should be noted that during the big waves of immigration over 100 years ago, the immigrants worked in sweatshops under near-slavery conditions, while the rich got REALLY rich. The country only developed a middle class after the immigration as cut off. As soon as the immigration got turned back on again, in 1967, we once again saw declining wages for workers, and rich Americans getting richer.

I mean 1965.

The rich got really rich in the 30's because they sold alcohol in the prohibition period.

Bob_D - you're clearly not very bright, and I shouldn't entertain your ignorance, but I feel an obligation. The Dems are typically known for their anti-immigration position which is seen by the right as protectionism. Most wealthy business owners who are Republicans are eager to benefit from the labor arbitrage that immigrants and off-shoring offer. So get your sides right. As for your supply/demand math, you neglect to point out that many of those H1's go on to set up companies, thereby increasing demand, pushing the overall equilibrium price up.

Really, I don't know why I'm wasting my time...

"What year define "welcomed immigrants" to "not so welcomed immigrants"?"

It wasn't a specific YEAR, but rather an ERA; when immigrants started coming here ILLEGALLY and rather than contributing to American society, became a financial drain on it.

Companies face a great deal of red tape re visas and foreign workers. They prefer to hire qualified citizens."

Are yous urer about that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU

"The h1-b visa is a solution to a poorly trained work force. Perhaps more parents need to encourage their children to become engineers, mathematicians an scientists."

No, we actually have more than enough engineers and scientists:

"Between 1993 and 2002, adds Hal Salzman, a professor of
public policy at Rutgers University, U.S. colleges graduated
an average of 380,000 STEM bachelor’s, 70,000 master’s,
and nearly 20,000 doctoral graduates per year (including IT
workers). At that rate, U.S. colleges graduate enough students
to replace the entire 6.9-million-person STEM workforce
every 15 years (including up to 40 percent of workers
in some IT fields who do not hold a STEM degree)."

http://www.tbp.org/pages/publications/Bent/Features/Su09Brown.pdf

"Immigrants built this country."

That is right. Imiigrants built this country. But H1B visa holders are NOT immigrants. They are merely 21st century indentured servants.

"As for your supply/demand math, you neglect to point out that many of those H1's go on to set up companies, thereby increasing demand, pushing the overall equilibrium price up."

Which US company was founded bys omeone on an H1b visa?

NYCmatt, do you live in NYC?
Who deliver your pizza?
Who take care of your baby when you or your spouse can't?
Who clean your house? Barbara or Maria?
Who iron you fancy shirts?
Who is your doorman?
Who walk your dog?
Have you ever thanked anyone of them? Have you ever try to even imagine what their personnal life is like? How much they struggle to save whatever they can to send their kids to college ..maybe... if they are lucky.

what amaze me each day in this city is how people overlook those who do the stuff that no one wants to do. They were born on the wrong side of the river and they do whatever they can to change it.
I respect them a lot and you should do the same.

OTNYC, "you're clearly not very bright, ... Most wealthy business owners who are Republicans"

1. Where did I write anything about Republicans?
2. Most wealth people actually voted for Obama and not McCain.

I'm in favor of working Americans, not Republicans or Democrats.

switel

"Who deliver your pizza?"

People should walk across their street and buy their own pizza. Or maybe even, gasp! cook their own food. And who delivered pizza before there were zillions of immigrants?

"Who take care of your baby when you or your spouse can't?"

My mother took care of me.

"Who clean your house? Barbara or Maria?"

Who cleaned houses before zillios of immigrans. Maybe, gasp! people could clean their OWN houses? No, way.

"Who iron you fancy shirts? "

If everyone wore wash-and-wear shirts, problem solved.

"Who is your doorman? "

A guy who makes more money a year than a lot of people born in this country, I assure you of that.

"Who walk your dog? "

Owning a dog is a luxury that people aren't entitled to.

"NYCmatt, do you live in NYC?"

Yes.

*****
"Who deliver your pizza?"

The pizza delivery guy.

*****
"Who take care of your baby when you or your spouse can't?"

A relative.

*****
"Who clean your house? Barbara or Maria?"

I clean my own apartment.

*****
"Who iron you fancy shirts?"

I iron my own plain shirts with a fancy Rowenta iron.

*****
"Who is your doorman?"

What difference does that make? I don't even have a doorman.

*****
"Who walk your dog?"

I don't have a dog. The neighbors use a college kid from New Jersey to walk their dog, if that's a help.

*****
"Have you ever thanked anyone of them? Have you ever try to even imagine what their personnal life is like? How much they struggle to save whatever they can to send their kids to college ..maybe... if they are lucky."

Have any of them ever thanked ME?

*****
"what amaze me each day in this city is how people overlook those who do the stuff that no one wants to do."

If you eliminate the illegal labor pool, what would happen is one of two things: 1. People would have to do these jobs themselves, or 2. These jobs would be replaced by real Americans. Sure, the cost of that labor might be a bit more, but it would be reflective of the TRUE cost of that labor in the United States, rather than keeping it artificially low by exploiting the cheap illegal labor.

*****
"They were born on the wrong side of the river and they do whatever they can to change it."

And as long as they're not breaking the law, I have no problem with that.

*****
"I respect them a lot and you should do the same."

I have no obligation to "respect" criminals.

It is not the H1B which is the issue. It is family based immigration without testing for the means. Once you become a citizen you can bring your old parents here and load up the medicaid. Also, people who believe that cheap un/semi-skilled labor is beneficial should think about the medical costs for all these poeple who are paid by the tax payers. The country should stop family based immigration (unless it is your spouse - even that should be means tested) and start a merit based immigration system similar to Cananda. If the country gets only highly educated people, they need minimal social services but contribute a lot for competitiveness of this country. Americans think it is UNCOOL to study math in high school. No one would want to date you. Our education system is ruined by "every one is great". In math, there is a right and wrong answer. The kids with fragile egos find it too tough to discover that being correct matters.

NYCMatt wrote: "If you eliminate the illegal labor pool, what would happen is one of two things: 1. People would have to do these jobs themselves, or 2. These jobs would be replaced by real Americans. Sure, the cost of that labor might be a bit more, but it would be reflective of the TRUE cost of that labor in the United States, rather than keeping it artificially low by exploiting the cheap illegal labor."

I agree with this 100%.

If the price of getting a shirt laundered and pressed goes up from $1.50 to $3.00, people can either (1) pay more (know that his payment supports an American making a decent salary), or (2) wear wrinkle-free shirts; or (3) iron them yourself. Neither of these 3 options will cause the world to come to an end.

For poeple who justify lower skill immigration by saying that they do jobs no ones wants to do are pure selfish. They pay less but schools, social services and hospitals are overloaded by these low income non-tax paying people. In addition, there is clearly evidence that low education parents are likely to result in lower educated children.

300_mercer "Also, people who believe that cheap un/semi-skilled labor is beneficial should think about the medical costs for all these poeple who are paid by the tax payers. "

Good point. We no longer let people die in the streets if they can't afford to take care of themselves. If you add up government-paid healthcare, education, welfare benefits, social security, fire and police protection, etc, it becomes apparent that the low-wage worker costs the country a lot more than he contributes.

Not to mention that many low skill immigrants get paid off the books, so they contribute zero in income tax revenue.

"This is typical. economy going down and specific group of individuals take the blame...
Haven't we seen it before?History repeating..."

Of course. Its just like going after the Jews or the Irish in the past.

Granted, the cities that do best are the ones that best use immigrants (us!).

That why we pays "City" taxes!!

"Of course. Its just like going after the Jews or the Irish in the past."

LEt's leave the hyperbole out. Nobody is proposing throwing 6 million immigrants into death camps.

"Nobody is proposing throwing 6 million immigrants into death camps. "

Maybe not now, but hate is propagating by accusing simpe individuals for the shortage of money of others.

This is how it started before

Pres - I think this comment was meant as a reflection of attitudes in NYC in earlier years toward these 2 groups. Not the Holocaust.

I think the main discussion is whether H1B is bad? The answer clearly is no due to contribution to economy. It is the low-skilled immigration which is bad due to the drain on the tax-payer funded resources.

Since when is ending a subsidy for corporations considered "hate"?

Oh yes, and let's not forget that these illegals are taking a significant portion of the U.S. dollars they're paid and ... SENDING THEM TO RELATIVES IN MEXICO!

How the hell does that benefit the United States?

Example #1: Bradford Moneybags II and his wife Muffy live in Greenwich, Connecticut. Bradford employs Javier as a full-time gardener, and Muffy employs his wife Lucinda as a maid. They pay both off the books, so no income taxes. The couple lives frugally and sends home half of their $1,000/week earnings to relatives back home in Mexico.

That's $500 leaving the United States economy every week. Lucinda and Javier are also contributing nothing to their local municipality -- the Bronx -- in the form of taxes, so every dime spent on them in the form of any kind of government assistance is a dime stolen from Americans.

Example #2: Bradford and Muffy employ U.S. citizens. They pay both on the books, so income taxes are contributed to society. This couple also lives frugally, but every dollar of their $1,000/week income STAYS IN THE UNITED STATES because there are no Mexican relatives.

"LEt's leave the hyperbole out. Nobody is proposing throwing 6 million immigrants into death camps."

Lets throw the ignorance out. Noone put the Irish in death camps, I'm talking about AMERICAN Irish and Jews, who built this city and were spit on.

Extremely sad that not only do you not know this, you are trying to deny it.

"Pres - I think this comment was meant as a reflection of attitudes in NYC in earlier years toward these 2 groups. Not the Holocaust"

Why do we bother with this guy?

"The couple lives frugally and sends home half of their $1,000/week earnings to relatives back home in Mexico. "

I can't stop laughing "the couple lives frugally"????????? she is a maid and he is a gardener?

I don't know why I am bothering as well

"I think the main discussion is whether H1B is bad?"

H-1B is bad for Americans who would be doing the same job as them (like computer programmers and nurses), and good for investment bankers and other rich folk.

Is H1B bad for the economy? NO. For individual who are in the field with shortage of supply? Yes. However, what prevents the companies from outsourcing or shutting down as they can not compete as the short-supply American engineers are too expensive relative to the cost of employing similar skilled engineers in other countries producing the same goods/services. Low-skilled workers only do the jobs which can not be out-sourced. People will do it themselves or pay American higher wages without having to spend on social services for low-skilled immigrant.

300_mercer, "Is H1B bad for the economy? NO. For individual who are in the field with shortage of supply?"

Don't be so certain that H-1B visas help the economy. If imported workers cause Americans to be unemployed or underemployed, this is NOT beneficial for the economy. If Americans avoid majoring in fields like engineering because H-1Bs and other immigrants have taken over, this is NOT beneficial for the economy.

"However, what prevents the companies from outsourcing or shutting down as they can not compete as the short-supply American engineers are too expensive"

H-1B's, even though they drag down American wages, are still more expensive than paying someone who lives in India to do the same work, so they are doing jobs which, for some reason, need to be done in America. In any event, how does it harm an AMERICAN-born worker if a job is done in India by an Indian, or in America by an Indian? The AMERICAN worker is still unemployed.

"In any event, how does it harm an AMERICAN-born worker if a job is done in India by an Indian, or in America by an Indian? The AMERICAN worker is still unemployed."

Um, no ...

If they hadn't outsourced to India in the first place that American would have a job.

NYCMatt, when you type as bob_d, try to at least pretend something is different. Like use different punctuation or one curses and another doesn't, something, anything to be less obvious.

"Is H1B bad for the economy? NO. For individual who are in the field with shortage of supply?"

What field is in short supply? That is a good one!

time for a bump

http://techcrunch.com/2009/08/30/free-the-h-1bs-free-the-economy/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gary-shapiro/american-brain-drain-why_b_195627.html

I have no problem with LEGAL immigration. But H1B visas are NOT the same thing as immigration. H1Bs do NOT create jobs. There are no major companies out there that were founded by those on H1B visas.

Your Huffington Post op-ed has no credibility. It was written by the head lobbyist for the electronics companies. Not exactly a neutral source.

What is legal immigration?

Your joking, right? Legal immigration is when you become a CITIZEN. That is how virtually all of our realtives came to this country. I doubt anyone here has a relative who came here on an H1B visa.

Someone who comes here on a temporary work visa is NOT an immigrant as they are not allowed to remain in the US permaently.

No answer? can someone explain how is legal immigration achieved?

You get a Green Card. Duh.

You are right, H1B is a temporary permit. After a few years H1B holder that want to stay get a green card.

So H1B is a mean to legal immigration for some, at least in your logic.

BTW I have a green card. Before I had a H1B.. hope that is not a problem

"After a few years H1B holder that want to stay get a green card."

Not always. They would need to go through a lengthy legal process first. It is not automatic. Although they could speed the process up by marrying a US citizen.

Also, the majority of those here on an H1b do not become citizens.

you are right, it takes forever... like 3+ years. But is a way of getting there, that is my point. I actually married another H1B holder so not short cut there.

i'm on an h1b on my way to getting a green card through work and for the life of me i cannot figure out another way for a college-educated foreigner to legally immigrate to the u.s. without having relatives in the country or $1mm to invest.

OTCNY "Squarefoot - qualified and accomplished engineers may top out at $200K, but so do a majority of MBAs and JDs. Look up the stats by job description."

where are you getting these stats? are you an engineer? the majority of engineers top out at $100k. The more accomplished (high level managers) ones top out at $200k. I know of 4 firms who have engineering department heads managing 30-40 people, they all make just under $200k! not in wisconsin, in NYC! just try to imagine the same position in a law firm, banking firm, medicine, advertising, etc..

trust me, you have no clue how low paid the profession is, it may have to do with the H1B's, it may have to do with no real organization or lobby, but regardless, the money is definitely not there, so most kids are avoiding it and choosing more lucrative professions because the engineer is not "valued" in the US. for the most part, smart but clueless or delusional suckers are filling those engineering positions, and H1B's.

great, i guess we all agree h1b's should continue to exist as means to legal immigration

"great, i guess we all agree h1b's should continue to exist as means to legal immigration"

Who is "we"?

what is the alternative? no more legal immigration?

"what is the alternative? no more legal immigration?"

No, just make immigration into this country just as tight as it is for other countries like Britain and Switzerland.

Immigration should be mean tested. People who are going to pay more in taxes than use in social services. Canada already has a point system for immigration which essentially attempts to do that. No more immigration allowed to old parents, brothers/sisters unless you can pay for their social benefits.

BTW, most H1B will not only pass the test but will qualify for greencard as they sure pay more in taxes thatn using social service. Believe it or not, they pay Social Security tax even though they are not eligible for social security benefits.

in britain, skilled workers (doctors, scientists, engineers, MBAs, and other educated workers) can immigrate without any kind of sponsorship from an employer., thus making the u.s. h1b/green card process much more selective.

and yes, i have also been paying social security tax for the past 5 yrs without taking a cent out.

droop81m, you mean you could not take a cent out if you wanted to as you are not eligible for unemployment and social security benefit. If you lose your job, you have to leave the country. Low-skilled immigrants barely pay any taxes but use schools, medical care and social security in addtion to high likelihood of poor-skilled childred - start of vicious cycle.

or just ban pennies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77C47XYm_3c&feature=player_embedded

The H-1B work visa is fundamentally about cheap labor.

Though the tech industry lobbyists portray H-1B as a remedy for labor shortages and as a means of hiring "the best and the brightest" from around the world (which I strongly support), the vast majority are ordinary people doing ordinary work. Instead of being about talent, H-1B is about cheap labor.

The underpayment of H-1Bs is well-established fact, not rumor or anecdote. It has been confirmed by two congressionally-commissioned reports, and a number of academic studies. Even former software industry entrepreneur CEO Vivek Wadhwa, now a defender of foreign worker programs, has confessed,

I know from my experience as a tech CEO that H-1Bs are cheaper than domestic hires. Technically, these workers are supposed to be paid a "prevailing wage," but this mechanism is riddled with loopholes.
Wadhwa has also stated

I was one of the first [CEOs] to use H-1B visas to bring workers to the U.S.A. Why did I do that? Because it was cheaper.
Note Wadhwa's point about the loopholes. It is perfectly LEGAL to underpay H-1Bs, due to gaping loopholes. Most of the abuse is NOT fraud, but instead is skillful use of loopholes, just like using loopholes in the tax code. Stiffening enforcement would NOT address the cheap labor problem.

Note too that the abuse of H-1B extends across the industry including the large mainstream firms., facilitated by the nation's top immigration law firms. It does NOT occur primarily in the Indian "body shops."

Two congressional reports and a number of academic studies have shown that H-1Bs are often paid less than Americans. As mentioned above, even H-1B advocate and former tech CEO Vivek Wadhwa has admitted underpaying H-1Bs himself.

Underpayment of H-1Bs is usually done in full compliance with the law. The problem is primarily NOT one of lack of enforcement or fraud. Instead, the problem is gaping loopholes in the law.

There is no tech labor shortage. No study, other than those sponsored by the industry, has ever shown a shortage. HR departments routinely exclude CVs of applicants they deem "too expensive"--those that are over age 35. (So managers never see these CVs, and mistakenly believe there are no applicants.)

Shortage arguments based on comparison of American K-12 math/science scores to those of other nations are red herrings, based on misleading averages. It is also rank hypocrisy, since the same employers who claim that "Johnnie can't do math" are laying off tens of thousands of Americans who had been top math/science students when they were kids.

The world's "best and brightest" should be welcomed, but only a tiny percentage of H-1Bs are in that league. Meanwhile, the H-1B program results in many of our own best and brightest U.S. citizens and permanent residents being squeezed out of the market once they accumulate 10 years or so of experience, and worse, many top college students are discouraged by H-1B and offshoring from pursuing the field in the first place. In other words, H-1B is causing an internal brain drain of American talents.

Though the industry lobbyists claim that the importation of H-1Bs avoids the offshoring of work, the visa is actually used to facilitate shipping the work abroad. Moreover, many types of work cannot be offshored well; employers still want to save money, though, so they fill these kinds of jobs with H-1Bs, who are cheaper to hire than the Americans.

The National Science Foundation, a key government agency, actually advocated the use of the H-1B program as a means of holding down PhD salaries, by flooding the job market with foreign students. The NSF added that the stagnation of salaries would push domestic students away from PhD study, which is exactly what has happened. Former Fed chair Alan Greenspan has also explicitly advocated the use of H-1B to hold down tech salaries.

http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~matloff/h1b.html

This whole thread sounds like a tea-party rant.

First ending h1-b visa cannot add jobs, at best it would substitute American workers for foreign workers but is that really the case? When I first read President's post I asked myself if this was skilled or unskilled labor. It seems the positions are mostly high-tech and the visa applicants mostly are b.a. or higher in terms of education. When considering the nature of the position, you must be led away from salary since we're moving away form labor intensive to skill intensive. So what are the options? Hire less capable Americans,outsource...

Seems to me we're in a global economy and if you end the program you just encourage out-sourcing or favor foreign businesses even more. The visa process is cumbersome, so businesses already have an incentive to hire Americans if they can.

This whole post sounds like a Howard Beal rant, President is just mad as hell and he aint gonnna take it anymore!

close the loopholes then... it's already illegal to pay h1b workers less than actual wage level paid to all other individuals with similar experience (same deal with paying women less than men), but the law is not enforced. that still does not warrant getting rid of the main program through which skilled foreigners immigrate to the u.s.