Berlin or NYC

Berlin is so cheap compared to NY, if i had $500K to invest i'd buy a building there, no questions about it!
That's the best retirement investment i can think off! Remember, there was no such thing as real estate bubble in germany so there is plenty of room for upside. In NY, you'd be catching a falling knife!

Berlin. I don't agree that you'd be catching a falling knife in NY, but we had a big run-up and Berlin last I heard is still comparatively cheap. Also I love Berlin.

Bonn.

mid or east. don't do west. boring stuffy and old

I don't recognize the unification of Germany with East Germany, so west is all there is.

Ha, very same position as you. Also German/US and been looking at Berlin lately vs sinking more into NYC. I'd be interested to talk offline sometime to compare findings. Not really been looking into the tax implications yet, though I do own a home in Bavaria already and have some experience there.
Viel Glueck beim suchen.

Decent compensation ..180k/yr? you a union MTA subway driver?

There are two opposing forces at work here: income potential and asset appreciation potential.

So the question is, what's your primary goal? Because they point to different answers.

If you're buying an asset for an appreciation play, then the answer is probably "Berlin" -- for the downside protection of diversifying your real estate holdings, if nothing else.

If you're hoping to be a landlady, then the answer is probably "New York"-- because I can't imagine anything that would be more of a hassle than to have tenants a six-hour flight away. Unless you have a family member who will manage your property, the property that's distant will become run down and will require intermittent infusions of capital. It will be a GIANT headache that will hit over and over.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

Bonn's boring.

But isn't Berlin full of ..like..germans.....

Berlin, definitely, Prenzlauer Berg or further east (although I do like Kreuzberg).

Not sure I understand the post completely. Are you looking for a pure investment property or would you potentially live in the home yourself at some point? If it's the latter I really wouldn't decide this based primarily on financials.

Neither...this is about escapist daydreaming.

Tenant rights in Berlin are extremely liberal. Your ability to increase rent will be very limited. Also, most units are similar to NYC coops where you don't own the actual property. Berlin will slowly increase in value but you will not get the large increases you see in the states.

Thanks for everyone's answers so far.

Appreciation is my primary goal. if the property appreciates I can still decide whether to live here, there or both places. I can hire someone to manage my place here or my place there.
I expect to be living eventually between here and there but for that I could always rent short term as well and don't have to live in my own property.

The key question is:
what is the appreciation potential of Berlin compared to NYC for the next 15 years?
Will I slap myself for not having bought there and instead bought here or visa vs? (I remember all the fab apts here that I saw and didn't buy in the early '90)

Granted Berlin is cheap, but Berlin is no NYC 15/20 years ago as many like to say because Berlin doesn't have any industry...no money there that's why it's cheap...and Berlin's space is not limited. you need another house, you build another house.

yet Berlin has culturally all the earmarks of the place to be and usually where artists are, media and industry will follow. also, foreigners are mostly buying in Berlin...it's a really interesting set-up...alas many 2nd homes rather than people who work in Berlin.

so considering all that and the fact that here I can get tax advantages where is the bigger upside in my time frame of about 15 years?

One problem is the currency rate. The euro is pretty strong right now, which makes Berlin comparatively more expensive. But the euro may get even stronger as the dollar falters. Long-term I would hedge and have a place in both cities. Berlin is cheap enough that you can buy a nice two-bedroom for 200K and keep the NY apartment. That way you're covered no matter which way things get ugly. And who knows where the dollar and real estate will be in 20 years when you want to retire?

keeping the NYC apt in any case...what is the appreciation potential of Berlin compared to NYC for the next 15 years?

Is this really about appreciation, or about your desire for a place in Berlin? It sounds to me like you want to get a great place in Berlin, and that you worry that if you don't do it now you'll be stuck in a tiny place like you have in NYC instead of the fantastic places you didn't pull the trigger on in NYC 20 years ago.

I agree with you: Berlin is not the NYC of 20 years ago. But I do think that it will benefit economically from a variety of trends. Over time, East Germany is going to grow faster than the West. As the capital of Europe's largest economy, Berlin will continue to attract new businesses (though you are right, it is not a major business city yet). The presence of so many creative professionals will continue to lure businesses that benefit from their presence. Tourism will grow quickly as Americans become more willing to visit Germany along with Spain, France, and Italy. And Asians lack the North American distaste for visiting Germany.

If you are looking for the best pure investment, I wouldn't recommend you buy residential real estate in either Berlin or NYC. If you are looking to secure a place for your retirement in Berlin, buy a nice flat in Prenzlauerberg and you won't regret it.