Brokers making up new neigborhoods.

Where is the nude hairy man that our children should avoid?

South of 72nd Street is considered Lincoln Square, which is included in the overall Upper West Side major market.

Of all the "literary license" that realtors take, I think this is a bit of hair-splitting, no? Lincoln Center extends as far south as 62nd Street so if someone wants to say 61st (or frankly even 60th) street "Lincoln Center" I don't think anyone is being deceived. Surely no one thinks the listing apartment is actually IN Lincoln Center. It is like someone living on 9th Street between University Place and 5 Ave calling the 'hood "Washington Square" even though the park is 1 block away. I find puffery about the actual apartments much more deceptive and annoying since you often have to go to the apartment to uncover the deception. No listing with an address can really deceive about its location regardless of what the broker calls the neighborhood.

Sorry: in my example the park would be 2 blocks away.

passive agressive again.

technically the neighborhood is referred to on SE's maps as Lincoln Square, and it runs all the way down to 59th street, from the park all the way west. so yes, it would be included in the lincoln center neighborhood.

True upper west side always started on 72nd and proceeded North. Somehow the brokers started pushing the boundaries south and its common to hear them call the condos all the new condos along West End avenue down the 60's as "upper west side". I guess it's good marketing, but clearly mis-labeling.

Did anyone take geography in school?

we did, but we were high most of the time, so it didn't stick

'He reacted with almost neuralgic patriotism whenever any comparison between the U.S. and UK came up. For example, one British businessman noted that despite the "overwhelming might of the American economy compared to ours" the amount of American and British investment in Kyrgyzstan was similar. Snapped the duke: "No surprise there. The Americans don't understand geography. Never have. In the UK, we have the best geography teachers in the world!".'

come on! there are so many good ones. i bet someone clever is already working on a coffee table book or a commemorative calendar of various world leader types with wonderfully descriptive quotes from american diplomats.

USA! USA! USA!

that doesn't address the fact that your original post was wrong and misleading.

UWS you may have a point, the Lincoln Square neighborhood you don't. Do you check anything before you post?

"And now places on 61st street are called Lincoln Center?"
This is the same as calling my Riverside Drive address as Frederick Douglass Houses. I wonder why we never see that?

And Chelsea never started at 14th Street, as it does now.

did the students in NYC really waste their time learning the neighborhood demarcations? i thought it was bad enough having to memorize all the counties in a state. and yes, i was high then also, so i only recall the names of the four or five largest counties in my home state.

I'm an Upper West Side native ... the southern boundary was always 59th St. As streeteasy pointed out, there are subneighborhoods. If you really want to get real, the Lincoln Square subneighborhood is San Juan Hill.

The broker sell you that? When they do films on the upper west side, it's never on 61st street. but ok, everyone can believe as they wish.

@ ph41: I lived in Chelsea for over 20 years until 2007. It always started at 14th Street and ran to about 29th Street during that time to everyone I ever spoke to without exception. Curious as to where you think Chelsea begins and if higher than 14th Street what you would call the area from 14th St. to wherever you claim Chelsea starts. I don't particularly have a horse in this race but the post struck me as strange. Maybe you were joking and the sarcasm got lost in the ether.

who cares??

covered by kyle: the address is the address

streeteasy has drawn and labeled reasonable demarcations for data organization

my broker told me i live in nirvana--a mislabeling i wish to believe

I thought chelsea started as W 14th st to W 23rd st, and then expanded to include all of the west twenties, maybe up to 34th st, only after it became a more fashionable address.

Same thing happened to Hudson square. It didn't sell apartments so now it common is referred to as Soho, but only it's not.

Kyle: My understanding was that Chelsea used to start much closer to 23rd street (e.g. 20th and above). Between 14th and there was an area that wasn't the village and also wasn't Chelsea - until, IMHO, for marketing purposes, it was annexed to Chelsea.

Soho is in London.

SoHo, in New York, was given its name WAY before apartments/lofts were being sold there, in the early 1970s as a way to identify the area that was becoming trendy for artists' studios (increasingly live/work) in a no-longer viable industrial area. Industrial areas were generally known by their goods, to the extent there were neighborhood names ... e.g. the Printers' District, the Garment District, etc. ... and their were many.

I never heard the term Hudson Square until the past couple of decades, and I suspect it's a modern confection.

Chelsea is interesting in that it was the name for a particular estate, so ph41 is right if we go back to the 18th century ... its southern border was 19th street. For my entire conscious life, 14th was known to be the southern border.

Chelsea is also interesting in that the 14-19 St. part, although largely slummy, was more desirable that the Chelsea proper part, and its gentrification earlier, so there's no reason brokers would have borrowed the name Chelsea from the area of vast lower- and middle-income housing projects (slum clearance) and dying industry ... they would have glommed onto the bohemian and genteel Greenwich Village instead, as the West Village name did.

The western boundary of Chelsea is another thing altogether, and that, or "West Chelsea" is a recent stretch. Again, the area simply had no cohesive name before, to the best of my knowledge.

Yesterday, i heard the most ridisculous made up nab : NoProPaSo
Can anyone guess what the fvck does that mean?

AH - but don't you think that 14th street could not be overcome as a geographical boundary, so it was difficult to annex the area (for marketing purposes) to Greenwich Village?

Can anyone guess what the fvck does that mean?

north prospect park....south?

Touche! Ain't it stupid?

@ ph41: I'd be surprised if an area as populated for as long as 14-23 Streets has did not have a name until Chelsea got hot in the late 1980s as you seem to suggest. GV most certainly stops and always did at 14th Street. 14th to 20th Street surely had a name, and for at least most if not all of the last century it was Chelsea. Above 24th St there were "districts" that one could argue were not considered part of Chelsea proper, but could also have been thought of as micro-areas within Chelsea: the fur district and the flower district (once much, much more substantial than it is today). I wasn't here for anything but the end of the fur district days, so I don't really know.

I believe that the "Lincoln Center" area was formerly known as San Juan Hill before the tenements & rowhouses were demolished. Some fascinating pics. And yes, I would have preferred the more human scale of the "slums".

Lucille: yes, I am worried about the lack of a systematic - learn the countries, capitals, major industries-of-the-world-type geography curriculum in NYC public schools.

In my experience, most people who are incredibly adamant about the specifics of neighborhood demarcations are worried about their "authentic New Yorker" status being encroached on. These names are not written in the Bible - I suspect even the originators expected them to evolve. But it is common for brokers to lump a marginal address in with a nearby, more "accepted" neighborhood. Should you care this much? Probably not.

Some cool pics of remnants of San Juan Hill http://www.michaelminn.net/newyork/urban_renewal/upper_west_side/san_juan_hill/

When I lived in Wmsbgh I wanted it renamed NoToDoHo (nothing to do with houston st.).

My friend wanted lollipop buildings built all along the wasteful median of Houston Street, to efficiently maximize its utility. MoHo, middle of houston.

NOPROPASO North of Prospect Park South refers to Caton Park -A neighborhood that is bordered by Caton on the south and Prospect Park (parade grounds) to the north. The neighborhood referred to as Prospect Park South is bordered by Caton on the north and Ditmas Park on the South. All of this is part of Flatbush.

At least in Brooqueens the superneighborhoods have clear borders, being as they were former villages. In some cases, as in LIC and Wmsbgh, they gobbled up older, smaller political entities (villages, hamlets, whatever) ... so even the subneighborhoods have more firmly established boundaries.

Another suspect very recent product of the RE folks is Gramercy.

FWIW: re "San Juan Hill" http://ephemeralnewyork.wordpress.com/2008/10/15/manhattans-long-gone-san-juan-hill/

Sorry. Try this re: before there was Lincoln Center http://ephemeralnewyork.wordpress.com/category/upper-west-sidemorningside-hts/page/5/

okay, I promised I wouldn't post anything anymore but actual fact and this is the facts as my "woman of a certain age experience" entirely lived in Manhattan south of 34th street tells me. Not this does not reflect anything prior to the building/opening of the Penn South Houses in 1962.

The northern boundary of the Village was always 14th Street. The southern boundary was Houston. The eastern boundary was Broadway. During the "hippie era" of the 1960s, the part of the Lower East Side from Houston to 14th Streets began (to my father's annoyance) to be referred to as the "East Village". There was no official western boundary of the Village, the unofficial was probably 7th Avenue but people who lived west of there sometimes said they lived in the Village for lack of other definition otherwise we just lived "downtown" or "on the west side" or "the lower west side"...no West Village, no way, no how.

Chelsea began at 14th street and extended informally to Penn Station at 31st street. I don't think there was a formal northern boundary for Chelsea but both the Mitchell Lama Penn South Houses and the NYCHA Elliott Houses in the mid-20s (and when they were built there was hardly the socio-economic gulf that exist between them today; the projects were working class--my friends lived there, Penn South was retired garment workers--grandpa lived there) were both considered to be in Chelsea and referred to as such.

I kind of always thought of the manufacturing districts (flower, fur) as distinct areas and not sub-sets of Chelsea which I assumed ended at 7th avenue but on this I will concede I may not be be right. The northern boundary though I am totally sure of at least of the mid-20th century, can't vouch for before that.

By the way, Chelsea has always gone to the river so while West Chelsea may be an accurate modifier, as a distinct neighborhood, its pure fantasy.

Now I will disappear for another six months, at least. This thread was just too irresistible for me

Well. SE would be very annoying if it weren't for you natives.

Lizyank....Totally agree. I've missed your posts especially your memory, your writing style and your humor. I hope you don't stay away.

Seconded.

Dumb thread became a fun thread. Thanks all--you, too Lizyank!

Don't know if it's widespread but amongst friends we call National Wholesale Liquidators, NatHoleLik.

truthskr. reminds me of how mad dog wine got its name
..Magen David.. MD somehow morphed into mad dog

Nice to dig up this article every once and a while for general interest and to show that history does repeat. But also in this case to show that whoever is claiming that the area below 72nd street was never considered part of the UWS is full of hot air.

http://nymag.com/news/features/47182/

mentioning matter of factly, "the 64-block-long area west of Central Park between Columbus Circle to the south and Columbia University to the north"

I liked when they were calling parts of it SoHa. Do they still trot that one out?

Lucille: yes, I am worried about the lack of a systematic - learn the countries, capitals, major industries-of-the-world-type geography curriculum in NYC public schools.

10023, i agree with you and it's not only a new york problem. it's embarassing how low our education standards are compared to the rest of the developed world. even the not so developed world. american kids are clearly dumb, but not as dumb as the duke of york.

the troll is far from dumb, cc.

are you saying that julialg is the troll?

cc, i am not saying this, i am writing it. and is that not obvious?

damn it, i am actually typing it

forgive me for being stupid.

please spell it out. write it out.

who are you kidding? when have you ever earnestly asked for forgiveness?

spell what? don't you think so? i always have.

of course.

but why do you engage it?

Wait, now the troll is julialg? What about NYCMatt? What about penthouselady?

he's witty and clever, 2 great traits. his shortcomings do not affect me personally as they do you guys, so he's a-okay in my book.

very nice.

glad you enjoy it.

lucille, are you SURE you don't have anger issues?

you enjoy it too. otherwise why do YOU engage him?

that is a really good question.

trust me, i don't enjoy it.

really, lucille, that's kind of like, well they abused people but not me and they were funny so i didn't complain.

or they might kick dogs but not my dog.

or...

aboutready, what time did you take your first drink this morning?

well, then you're kind of a failure as a masochist

but what about you?

you're kind of

above it all?

lucille, are you SURE you don't have anger issues?

my psychiatrist says no, and i hold him in very high esteem

columbiacounty, will there be another boycott of Riversider coming up tonight too?

not following.

but what about you?

you're kind of

above it all?

i'm not above anything.

good for you, you are your own old man

last comment directed at columbiacounty

but you're not getting attacked.

so its ok.

columbiacounty, you are saying that you aren't attacking lucille?

how can you lie when the truth is so obvious for all to see?

really, lucille, that's kind of like, well they abused people but not me and they were funny so i didn't complain.

or they might kick dogs but not my dog.

or...

ar, please don't insult the truly abused of this cruel world. it's an annonymous message board.

you are so weird

oh no, careful, when columbiacounty gets all angry, he can swing his Rollator up to 4 feet from his body

tell them i'm not you!!!!

hey lucille bluth

what the hell is up with you.

careful lucille, after he knocks into you with the Rollator, he'll run the wheels over your feet

not much just the usual

why did you change your name?

why are you small and gray and on default ignore?

lucillebluth said her goodbyes and left. then she missed se, and came back. it's not a secret. before lucillebluth i was alex09. what's the big deal?

why do you need to change names?

why don't YOU change your name? it's really annoying to keep clicking the unhide thing

but you're talking to me

Careful, the brakes are off of columbiacounty's Rollator

oh wait! assuming the troll is also jimhones, he HAS attacked me! but i could tell he wasn't really into it, he was thinking about someone else.

lucille, no one has ever correctly identified the troll. Many incorrect assumptions have been made.

i know you are someone they consider a friendly entity, not someone openly hostile here. you're probably knocked back a few sidecars together.

and i'm pretty sure i do know who you are. i just don't know where you get the time! your dedication is absolutely exemplary.

everyone knows who it is.

it's not riversider

as i said, everyone knows who it is.

everyone can't know, since i don't know. you should say "many people" know who it is. who is it?

oh alex

we don't know each other.

so, why should i tell you?

i would tell you

Are you sure?

i guess i should have said everyone but you/

well i know who it really is. and it's not riversider.

hey alex

did you think its last comment was witty?

By the way, regarding my defense of the subneighborhoods approach ... I still firmly maintain that the Upper East Side runs from Fifth Avenue to about 50 yards west of Lexington. East of that is Yorkville, or Lenox Hill, or anything but the Upper East Side, and is not at all a part of the Upper East Side.

It's a rule.