Sellers did work without permits. Problem?

I don't pretend to be intimately familiar with building codes, but I think the following is true:
1) Replacement of bathroom & kitchen kitchen fixtures do not need to be filed with the city
2) The deck may predate filing requirements, so it's not clear that it's a violation. However, current building code specifies that a deck must be made of non-flammable material if it exceeds a certain size
(think you have to be within x feet of neighbor), and you are not allowed to build a deck greater than 8 feet in length regardless of what it's made
3) Internal wall configurations don't have to be filed unless it affects entrance and exits
4) I don't know if electrical "upgrades" have to be filed. Certainly, changing sockets & adding light fixtures, etc. do NOT have to be filed.
5) Repair of roof does NOT have to be filed
6) Also, is the brownstone landmarked?

If you need to file a permit to have work done, I am not sure that the city sends out inspectors to close out every kind of permit, so I'm not sure how previous work would trigger any alarms. Now, if you did a full gut or changed the C of O, yes, the city sends out inspectors to close out the permit/sign off.

This is something that a good real estate lawyer will be able to review and address, if you're serious about the brownstone. Let your lawyer do their job (it's what you're paying them for), and ignore the broker.

IME, RE lawyers know nothing about the DOB and code. Agree with the uselessness of broker.

The forum to take this to is brownstoner.com.

LOL.....brokers in NYC know NOTHING...EVER! I began dabbling in the Manhattan market in '05 and was stunned by the ignorance of the majority of brokers with whom I've encountered.

They should have filed for that type of work

You need a competent inspector to review the work done and its compliance with code, and/or estimate the cost to make it compliant. Some aspects may be inconsequential, as long as you are not paying for something in "renovated" condition if it's merely "remuddled." If the house is landmarked, you want to make sure there is no violation (that would prevent you from pulling a permit for anything until the violation is fixed). Even if it is landmarked, you want to make sure that the deck (just to cite one example) won't have to be taken down if a neighbor rats you out (because it's too big/made out of wood.)
The broker is the last person to ask about this. Your lawyer should be able to recommend an inspector, and can do a review for any violation/fine.

A DOB expeditor or architect will to tell you what does or doesn't need to be filed for. Filing for work which was never filed for can be expensive. An architect will have to draft plans (drawings), go to DOB & get approval.

"Or if I want to do any kind of other renovation that I would need to file with the city, will I run into problems?" Perhaps. Depends on whether the unfiled for work is obvious &/or complies with NYC bld code. For this reason, you should have a DOB expeditor or architect look at the bld before you sign a contract.

Sounds like you already got the block & lot, went to the DOB web site & found no violations nor any open applications. That's good!

I think you also raise the following issue: should you file for improvements which were never filed for? It maybe good to do so if you're renting out the apt where the unfiled for work was done, but I would discuss this with a DOB expeditor or architect & a landlord-tenant attorney. ie: if tenant discovers improvements were never filed for, could tenant withhold rent until you legalize the improvements by filing?

Other potential prob: if you want a mortgage & bank inspects, bank's inspector may see things that violate the building code & that may delay financing, bank could require you to make conditions legal prior to giving a mtg.

Is it worth $1.3? hard to say. If there are income producing apts, crunch the #s, taking into account (I assume) that you will be living in part of the bld.

It's unlikely that the bank's appraiser will find anything. If the building is in move-in condition and you're not applying for funds to renovate, the bank's appraisers typically know nothing about NYC building code.

Well, it depends. If something doesn't look right to them, appraiser could question it, like a deck. Some banks use in-house appraisers, some use outside appraisers & ya never know what may tweek them or how astute they are.

Also, re: the deck: if it was not filed for, the deck will not appear on the property survey, which is attached to the title report. This could be an objection to title & that could open the can of worms, necessitating filing. Bigger prob: if an illegal deck is part of a tenant's apt & deck is illegal, demolishing the deck could lead to a rent reduction.

Dwell: in the case of some of the improvements mentioned - what on earth would he file for? People are allowed to change bathroom fixtures, replace kitchen entirely as long as there's no movement of the plumbing. I'm not even sure if things like adding a dishwasher or adding a water line to a fridge necessitates a filing.
You can replace a boiler without filing + make other necessary repairs.

Dharma: not everything is online on the BIS website. What might be helpful is to pull out the building's file at the DOB by using an expediter (or you can try yourself, I suppose). These brownstones started off life as a single family and if the current C of O has been changed from a single-family, that change was filed at the DOB, so I would start with that and work forwards.

The deck, IMO, is a bigger problem than the kitchen or baths. 14 X 21 is not allowed, regardless of whether it's wood or not.

dharma:

1. That it's been on the market for a year, and for nearly half a year at the current price, should probably indicated that it's not worth anything near the asking price. And if it's negotiable, don't negotiate, move on.

2. Have you spend time on dirty crowded Broadway near there? Not particularly pleasant. Not dangerous at all, just unpleasant and a bit depressing. Be sure you can live with that so you're not disappointed (assuming this would be your residence).

3. The kitchen and dining room would be happier if they changed places.

@NYC10023 -- The owners said there were no permits filed (my guess is that they did move the gas line in the kitchen... I doubt that there was originally a stove in the middle... I agree though that changing fixtures does not require dob, but doesn't removing a bathroom entirely?), but "all work was done by licensed insured contractors – licensed plumbers and electricians".

The broker said "The house does not have a C of O because it was built before C of Os were first issued. So unless use of house was changed, which it has not been, it is normal there is no C of O which does not affect anything. It does not affect financing as banks understand this issue – house has been financed, refinanced, etc. and currently has mortgage on house. It is a legal two family house, and the fact that it does not have a C of O would not diminish your legal recourses if you had tenant who didn’t pay."

@dwell -- The deck is off of the parlor floor, so not attached to the rental unit (the rental is ground level, then there is a triplex above. The deck leads off the kitchen/breakfast room, and goes down to the garden. The rental unit has a door to the garden. But I agree, I've looks at a ton of brownstones and never seen a deck before (well, maybe a tiny one, just to give you access to the yard if you rent the bottom floor).

@alanhart -- I know. They took it off market for a while. I didn't even look at it before because I ruled out < 15 ft wide. But it's actually good, and doesn't feel cramped. I live in that hood now. Would buy because of Columbia expansion/rezoning of 145th street... But agree that it's depressing... If it was on W 11th street it would be 7-10 mil... an order of magnitude more than we can afford!

"Dwell: in the case of some of the improvements mentioned - what on earth would he file for?"

nyc10023:
When topics like this come up on the board, I have noticed that you & I often wind up in some kind of pissing match. I do not desire to compete with you. I understand that you renovate & therefore, you have your opinions & experiences. I, too reno & thus have my opinions & experiences. Obviously, our opinions & experiences differ.

Obviously, the OP is rather new to all this & therefore, I post opinions which I hope convey caution & a non-cavalier attitude. IMO, the fact that current owner has not filed for ANY improvements could be a problem. That is why I advised OP to consult expeditor, architect & perhaps L/T lawyer if there are Ts living in apts where unfiled work was done. IMO, OP should understand the risks involved.

dwell:
Exactly.
No pissing match between you and any other commenter posting here, is actually based on the merits of your comments. You gave good advice.

It is what it is, here on SE ;dwell. As you well know.

I do not know the law as it pertains to dwellings with no C of O at all (don't rely on broker!) and tenants. Talk to someone, maybe, about how you might go about getting a C of O and also consult with a tax lawyer as to whether that will raise your taxes.

dwell: I know just what you are referring to.

I've got the ar team, trolling me on that other thread, right now.

sidelinesitter knows that I can handle them.

It's kindergarden-level with them.

But, don't allow them to drive you off of posting comments on SE.
That is their objective.

dwell: Please be my guest, up at The Ramble; anytime.

Here in town, be my guest for dinner at Nobu. Bring a friend. I'll introduce you to Drew Nieporent -- he can confirm who I am, who else I know and have done work for.

Then, stop by my place to see some really great music items, and projects that I have worked on: documentary music DVD's, books, photos, original artwork and concert posters.

Not to prove anything, just for you to see and enjoy.

An open invitation. The same as for spinnaker. (That nice avery is invited, too.)

I would argue that a buyer who wants to spend seven-figure money and is uncertain about the legal and title issues involved, as well as the value of the target property, needs a broker.

As someone who had her own deck permitting issues once, I'd say a real estate lawyer is not the person to solve this.

I don't specialize in houses, but this seems like a good nut for my colleague 30_yrs to crack.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

Certainly you don't want to trust the broker. Caveat emptor. Once you sign & pay, it's YOUR nightmare, if indeed there is a problem here. I wonder if they didn't pull permits so as not to change the tax rate? My gut says to be VERY careful & that deck sounds lovely but be sure it's properly built. Every few years I hear about a deck that fails, with revelers on it, & everything comes tumbling down - not pretty.

trooshdoosh seems to be attempting to assemble quite an exclusive little bunch--very impressive your alleged knowledge and bought regular status at a few cliche restaurants--and all the great stuff youve done and collected all in commemoration of you sounds wonderful--hope youve planty of barf bags on hand

stop with your claims of who's nice and who's not, your holier than thou trip, while you post crap like this:

dwell: I know just what you are referring to.

I've got the ar team, trolling me on that other thread, right now.

sidelinesitter knows that I can handle them.

It's kindergarden-level with them.

But, don't allow them to drive you off of posting comments on SE.
That is their objective.

Truth - you should feel free to leave me out of this. Thanks

Dharma: call the DOB, the ultimate authority.

Don't take MY word for anything, I am not going to be on the hook, after all.

I just called the DOB, and they were prompt in reply. Tell them your situation.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dob/html/contact/contact.shtml

wbottom: I don't think it would be an exclusive little bunch , just people who have some shared interests. They would be interesting to talk to, and they might like to see some of the things that I have collected throughout the years.
dwell and I have similar taste in music. avery has a vast collection of concert ticket stubs.
Drew shares those interests with me, and would enjoy meeting them.

I can state my opinion on SE, the same as you can.
Except that I use words that actually exist.

Shared interest in your career and achievements? I try to stay away from the general stupidity, but are you serious? I sincerely hope you are a great troll, because the alternative is that you are that clueless. Do you really think sane grown-ups would be interested in your collection of music posters and documentary DVD's?
You should take your ego to the next Thanksgiving parade.

maly, I will NOT have you speak of Truth that way. I simply will not. She's a blameless victim, only trying to be friendly and sharing.

maly: Yes, I'm serious.
I believe that dwell is a sane grown-up.
The same goes for avery.The avery collection of concert ticket stubs and mention of it on SE isn't a product of avery's ego.
We have already established that we share those interests.

Obviously you don't and that's O.K. with me. Sincerely.

Wbottom can call me "doosh". He can express his dislike of Nobu.It doesn't bother me and it sure doesn't bother Drew.
It won't cause me to order him to "stop".It won't cause me to need a barf bag.
I don't know him and I don't know you. I don't know what kind of work you do.I don't know what you take to the Thanksgiving parade.

I do know that if I ever have dinner with dwell and/or avery; we would have lots to talk about and the conversation wouldn't be about you or streeteasy.
dwell and I could talk about Barcelona without infuriating somebody who will order us to "Stop this crap".
avery and I could talk about the great concerts avery has been to and how managed to save all of those ticket stubs. Both Drew and I have a ticket stub collection but it doesn't compare to avery's.

That's what us grown-ups would do.

Right on, sister! Amen.

Lux et Veritas

and, here they are, within minutes of my comment being posted.
ah and ar go hand in glove.

no, actually if you will look ah posted over an hour ago. i just stopped by for a spot of fun a few moments ago.

and here she is, within minutes of my posting.

Comment-times, in order of their appearance:
Truth: 12 minutes ago
ah: 9 minutes ago
ar: 7 minutes ago

The streeteasy clock doesn't lie.

comment, ah one hour ago
truth, 19 minutes ago
ah 17 minutes ago
ar 14 minutes ago

i guess you chose not to include ah's earlier comment. but clearly we were not "hand in glove"
the streeteasy clock doesn't lie.

Hi, Truth!

this is just stoopid.

goodnight truth.

What a rude lady ... didn't even say Hi, Truth!

i'm so declasse. no circle jerking with keef and the boys for me.

"Avery has a vast collection of concert ticket stubs," but I have an extensive collection of name tags and hairnets.

hmm. thank you wayne.

alanhart: Hi and goodnight!

ar: No I was just referring to those 3 comments. Goodnight to you too ar. You can circle jerk with whomever you want.

MidtownerEast: Well, you may find somebody on SE who is interested in your collection.
Or, try e-bay.

Good night, Truth!

alanhart: I already said goodnight to you.
but I'm willing to say it again: Goodnight!

Please tell Drew (and his stub collection) that I said "goodnight" also.

Sure, MidtownerEast. Not that he would care.

Are you saying Drew is not a caring person?

alan: No. Not that he would care if M.E didn't say goodnight.

But, I really can't humor you anymore tonight. Got work to do.

Goodnight, again ah.

troofdoof, what's a standup person like you, with a trove of accomplishments and associated collectibles, to do?---a person who uses words that actually exist?

hi to keefie and the gang...maybe they have some advice re this little pickle youre in

oh pleeshe come back trooshy dooshy--i need some heartfelt, well-intended advice--

I talked to Drew; he cares very deeply about whether I say goodnight. He and Bobby (DeNiro, natch) and I had a nice chat. Toodles!

drew who?....missed that

Nieporent. Apparently he has a great stub collection, but not like Avery's.

Oh...

It seems like something has gone awry when mudd club cred, etc. has somehow morphed into nobu access.....

Well, sometimes the truth can morph into many different things.