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I wish I could pay my fair share; not 43.6%.

Started by scriber17
over 14 years ago
Posts: 28
Member since: Feb 2010
Discussion about
Fair Share? I wish! When is 2% of the population paying for 43.6% of all personal income taxes a fair share? Now they want to raise it? What is this Nation coming to? A little old but here's an excerpt. http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/what_percentage_of_the_us_population_makes.html "For simplicity, we'll just focus on the over-$250,000 group. Those reporting adjusted gross income of more... [more]
Response by jason10006
over 14 years ago
Posts: 5257
Member since: Jan 2009

"...Michele Bachmann says top 1 percent pay 40 percent of all federal taxes...

...Here’s the rundown of the federal tax burden for the top 1 percent:

Federal income taxes: 39.5 percent share
Federal payroll taxes: 4.1 percent share
Federal corporate taxes: 57.0 percent share
Federal excise taxes: 4.7 percent share

Total federal tax share for the top 1 percent: 28.1 percent..."

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/apr/18/michele-bachmann/michele-bachmann-says-top-1-percent-pay-40-percent/

If you add in state and local taxes, which in EVERY state but Vermont are in aggregate regressive, then you end up with essentially a flat tax system when Federal, state and local taxes are combined.

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Response by Socialist
over 14 years ago
Posts: 2261
Member since: Feb 2010

What? Bachmann was caught lying? Who could have seen that one coming?

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Response by rangersfan
over 14 years ago
Posts: 877
Member since: Oct 2009

thanks, jason. sooooo helpful. how is that mediterranean climate out in sf lately? you know, i hear the fog rolling in from the hills in sardenia has nothing on monterey bay....

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Response by rangersfan
over 14 years ago
Posts: 877
Member since: Oct 2009

can you please school us plainfolk on the inner workings of derivatives? or the credit markets? isnt it about time for you to call someone an idiot?

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Response by rangersfan
over 14 years ago
Posts: 877
Member since: Oct 2009

btw, bachmann will likely implode within a year or two without the "assistance" of your gotchas on something so elementary.

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Response by bob420
over 14 years ago
Posts: 581
Member since: Apr 2009

I recently went to SF. Definitely not a mediterranean climate.

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Response by alanhart
over 14 years ago
Posts: 12397
Member since: Feb 2007

bob420, of course it's not ... It's a northern coastal climate, driven by the icy Japan current.

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Response by bob420
over 14 years ago
Posts: 581
Member since: Apr 2009

Bloated payroll taxes are about 36% of all federal taxes. That's the broken part.

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Response by jason10006
over 14 years ago
Posts: 5257
Member since: Jan 2009

"I recently went to SF. Definitely not a mediterranean climate."

What was the temperature in Nice or Milan in January?

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Response by jason10006
over 14 years ago
Posts: 5257
Member since: Jan 2009

New York Times Alamanac - says...guess what? The same thing the national park service says, and Stanford and Berkeley's botony depeartment, and the national weather service...I have posted 20 sources on this and alan keeps insisting on something she has not supported with any data.

http://books.google.com/books?id=G81HonU81pAC&pg=PA464&lpg=PA464&dq=almanac+%22san+francisco%22+mediterranean&source=bl&ots=0yiZ11J4FT&sig=gvalgcuwz_8niEU6tBtgVBWZnYk&hl=en&ei=7p-sTfSUN4eQ0QGh78X5CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CCwQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q&f=false

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Response by dwell
over 14 years ago
Posts: 2341
Member since: Jul 2008

Scary video you posted, julialg.

>You need to deal with entitlements, plain and simple. Its just too much of the total.<
Exactly, somewherelse. The US cannot be a Nanny State.

For a look at the ideology of the supposed intelligentsia elite, I recommend "DUPES: How America's Adversaries Have Manipulated Progressives for a Century" by Paul Kengor. Vladimir Lenin referred to such folks as "Useful Idiots".

here's a taste from CSPAN's Book TV:
http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/296924-1

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Response by jason10006
over 14 years ago
Posts: 5257
Member since: Jan 2009

Here is a world map of climate classifications. Notice what places have the same classification as the entire bay area? I see southern France. I see not ONE SPEC of Japan.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Koppen_World_Map.png

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Response by alanhart
over 14 years ago
Posts: 12397
Member since: Feb 2007

San Francisco's climate is further modified by the location of the City on the northern end of a peninsula, surrounded on three sides by the relatively cool waters of the Pacific Ocean and San Francisco Bay. In addition to the normal cool temperatures of the mid-latitude Pacific Ocean, the water temperatures are modified by the upwelling of cold water along the California coast. This phenomenon is caused by the persistence of the Pacific High and the northwest winds that are constrained by the Coast Range to blow parallel to the coastline. The effects of these winds, the Coriolis Force and resultant sub-surface Ekman Spiral, causes a net transport of surface waters away from the shore. Consequently, as the surface waters drift away from the coast, they are replaced by the upwelling of colder waters from below (Ahrens, 1991).

Summertime in San Francisco is characterized by cool marine air and persistent coastal stratus and fog

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Response by jason10006
over 14 years ago
Posts: 5257
Member since: Jan 2009

and click to get it to magnify, dumb asses.

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Response by bob420
over 14 years ago
Posts: 581
Member since: Apr 2009

Wet and cold every trip.

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Response by jason10006
over 14 years ago
Posts: 5257
Member since: Jan 2009

"...Dry-summer subtropical or Mediterranean climates (Csa, Csb):

...Examples:

* Amman, Jordan (Csa)
* Antalya, Turkey (Csa)
* Athens, Greece (inland) (Csa)
* Cape Town, South Africa (coastal) (Csb)
* Cape Town, South Africa (inland) (Csa)
* Coimbra, Portugal (Csa)
* Izmir, Turkey (Csa)
* Jerash, Jordan (Csa)
* Jerusalem, Israel (Csa)
* Lisbon, Portugal (Csa)
* Los Angeles, California, United States (inland) (Csa)
* Los Angeles, California, United States (coast) (Csb)
* Madrid, Spain (Csa)
* Malaga, Spain (Csa)
* Marseille, France (Csa)
* Medford, Oregon, United States (inland) (Csa)
* Palermo, Italy (Csa)
* Perth, Australia (Csa)[10]
* Porto, Portugal (Csb)
* Risan, Montenegro (Csb)
* Sacramento, United States (Csa)
* San Francisco, California, United States (Csb)
* San Jose, California, United States (Csb)
* Sanremo, Italy (Csa)
* Santiago, Chile (Csb)
* Seville, Spain (Csa)
* Split, Croatia (Csa)
* Tel Aviv, Israel (Csa)..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%B6ppen_climate_classification#GROUP_C:_Temperate.2Fmesothermal_climates

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Response by dwell
over 14 years ago
Posts: 2341
Member since: Jul 2008

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=13401680

President Barack Obama and his wife, Michelle, reported income of $1.728 million for last year, much of it from the sale of the president's pre-presidency books. They paid federal taxes totaling $453,770 after receiving a $12,334 refund.

I wonder if they'll donate the $12,334 refund to deficit reduction.

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Response by columbiacounty
over 14 years ago
Posts: 12708
Member since: Jan 2009

why should they? or is that just meant to be yet another nasty crack?

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Response by julialg
over 14 years ago
Posts: 1297
Member since: Jan 2010

The leader of the regime.... A socialist with other people's money.

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Response by bob420
over 14 years ago
Posts: 581
Member since: Apr 2009

I don't get why the "rich" people calling for the "rich" to be taxed at a higher rate, don't just donate the amount they would be taxed if there was a higher rate. Nothing is stopping them.

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Response by dwell
over 14 years ago
Posts: 2341
Member since: Jul 2008

“The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money.”
—Margaret Thatcher

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Response by jason10006
over 14 years ago
Posts: 5257
Member since: Jan 2009

'“The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money.”
—Margaret Thatcher"

The top marginal tax rate under thatcher was 40%. End of story.

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Response by jason10006
over 14 years ago
Posts: 5257
Member since: Jan 2009

PS - she never ONCE even suggested dismantling National Health. Curtains rise.

The MOST conservative mainstream politicians in Europe are to the left of most Dems in the US.

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Response by jordyn
over 14 years ago
Posts: 820
Member since: Dec 2007

"I don't get why the "rich" people calling for the "rich" to be taxed at a higher rate, don't just donate the amount they would be taxed if there was a higher rate. Nothing is stopping them."

So by this logic, you shouldn't use any government services that you don't believe should exist, right?

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Response by rangersfan
over 14 years ago
Posts: 877
Member since: Oct 2009

jordyn, i think the bell just rang in the other room. its called getting a clue. hear it, hear it???

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Response by rangersfan
over 14 years ago
Posts: 877
Member since: Oct 2009

oh, dang. you missed it - AGAIN!

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Response by Socialist
over 14 years ago
Posts: 2261
Member since: Feb 2010

And under the new British conservative leader, David Cameron, the top tax rate is 50%.

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Response by happyrenter
over 14 years ago
Posts: 2790
Member since: Oct 2008

"I don't get why the "rich" people calling for the "rich" to be taxed at a higher rate, don't just donate the amount they would be taxed if there was a higher rate. Nothing is stopping them."

Do you people not understand the concept of Democracy? Each individual is not tasked with deciding his own fair share of the tax burden. It's a collective decision by elected representatives how much each of us should pay. You guys seem to think that each of us should get to say "I think my fair share is...$20" and leave it at that.

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Response by bob420
over 14 years ago
Posts: 581
Member since: Apr 2009

I understand Democracy. It's not about deciding their own fair share of the tax burden. But if they really feel that it is the "rich" person's patriotic duty to be forced to contribute more, why wait years until the rate is changed. Nothing is stopping them from contributing more now.

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Response by huntersburg
over 14 years ago
Posts: 11329
Member since: Nov 2010

You and Steve Rattner, with your abusive carried interest provisions and your second homes, now pretend to feel guilty so you can goad others - who don't have your abusive tax special interest tax benefits - into paying more

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Response by huntersburg
over 14 years ago
Posts: 11329
Member since: Nov 2010

Happyrenter, with his two homes, talks a lot about Democracy, but is probably one of the first people to want to restrict free speech and contribution rights of the wealthy towards politicians.

It's a good thing Steve Rattner didn't have to go to jail, he and happyrenter can continue their crusade to make sure they themselves are more relatively wealthy.

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Response by happyrenter
over 14 years ago
Posts: 2790
Member since: Oct 2008

But did anyone say anything about a "patriotic duty" or a "contribution"? Paying your taxes is not a contribution. That's the point: it's not a patriotic duty, it's a legal obligation. Tax policy has nothing to do with patriotism.

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Response by huntersburg
over 14 years ago
Posts: 11329
Member since: Nov 2010

So happyrenter, despite your abusive tax benefits and your calls for higher taxes, you personally don't make any contributions? Even Steve Rattner makes contributions.

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Response by bob420
over 14 years ago
Posts: 581
Member since: Apr 2009

I have heard many "rich" people say they need to pay more taxes, should be paying more taxes and are willing to pay more taxes. Why don't they just pay above and beyond? Why wait until the rates change?

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Response by huntersburg
over 14 years ago
Posts: 11329
Member since: Nov 2010

>Tax policy has nothing to do with patriotism.

What a surprise, Happyrenter isn't even a patriot.

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Response by happyrenter
over 14 years ago
Posts: 2790
Member since: Oct 2008

bob, if a rich guy wants to make contributions to federal or state government, then great. that has nothing to do with tax policy. it's irrelevant to the larger question of what tax rates are appropriate and necessary in the context of current fiscal and economic conditions.

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Response by sjtmd
over 14 years ago
Posts: 670
Member since: May 2009

When does "taxation without representation" become an issue? If the approximately 50% of Americans who do not pay taxes vote for representatives who promise to "tax the rich" and promote entitlement programs that are phased out for the "wealthiest" - is that democracy? On the other end of the spectrum are the corporate types who influence politicians through campaign finance and get their "vote". So the real "wealthy" we are talking about are those in the middle - paying their full share, naked to the political winds and targets of scorn from just about everyone.

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Response by julialg
over 14 years ago
Posts: 1297
Member since: Jan 2010

Bob, you're wasting your time. The progressive are happily facilitating the demise of a once great country. 15 trillion in debt and the community organizer only ideas are to demonize the producers.

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Response by huntersburg
over 14 years ago
Posts: 11329
Member since: Nov 2010

Happyrenter, why do you hate America?
Even Socialist loves this country.

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Response by huntersburg
over 14 years ago
Posts: 11329
Member since: Nov 2010

>When does "taxation without representation" become an issue? If the approximately 50% of Americans who do not pay taxes vote for representatives who promise to "tax the rich" and promote entitlement programs that are phased out for the "wealthiest" - is that democracy?

It's an interesting question for Lani Guinier.

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Response by jason10006
over 14 years ago
Posts: 5257
Member since: Jan 2009

"15 trillion in debt"

5 billion of which came in a period when GWB was President for 8 years and both houses of Congress were in GOP hands for 6.

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Response by jason10006
over 14 years ago
Posts: 5257
Member since: Jan 2009

i.e. BURN.

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Response by rangersfan
over 14 years ago
Posts: 877
Member since: Oct 2009

happyrenter, don't preach your version of what democracy means and how that translates into the tax code and fiscal policies. see nys budget "process" in play two years ago. our esteemed democratic "leaders" (patterson, shelly and sampson) "negotiated" a budget behind closed doors with no public sunshine and INCREASED the state budget by 9.2% in the absolute WORST economic times we have seen in this generation. all to feed the special interests. absolutely putrid. you think informed taxpayers are simply going to swallow your bs.

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Response by huntersburg
over 14 years ago
Posts: 11329
Member since: Nov 2010

Happyrenter hates America, but for the special tax breaks that he and Steve Rattner get.

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Response by dwell
over 14 years ago
Posts: 2341
Member since: Jul 2008

The Obama Speech Downgrade
S&P's 'negative' outlook on the President's budget strategy.

The ratings agencies are hardly the last word on U.S. economic health. But the S&P outlook is a warning to the White House that financial markets have noticed that this President seems to have decided that his path to re-election lies in demonizing his opponents rather than seeing to the nation's fiscal well-being.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704004004576270970186305348.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEADTop

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Response by dwell
over 14 years ago
Posts: 2341
Member since: Jul 2008

>When does "taxation without representation" become an issue? If the approximately 50% of Americans who do not pay taxes vote for representatives who promise to "tax the rich" and promote entitlement programs that are phased out for the "wealthiest" - is that democracy? On the other end of the spectrum are the corporate types who influence politicians through campaign finance and get their "vote". So the real "wealthy" we are talking about are those in the middle - paying their full share, naked to the political winds and targets of scorn from just about everyone.<

Excellents points, sjtmd. Huge problem: Nearly 50% pay no income tax, yet they elect reps who have the power to impose taxation on the 50% that do pay. Meanwhile, those unable to afford a lobbyist have no voice.

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Response by alanhart
over 14 years ago
Posts: 12397
Member since: Feb 2007

dwell,

"I have stopped paying any attention to anything that S.&P. says or does. Its performance over the past decade has revealed it to be incompetent and corrupt – it sold its AAA ratings to the highest bidder. It is the broker who lost all your money, the girlfriend who cheated on you, the partner who stole from you. Since the portfolios we run never rely on its judgment or analysis, we simply do not care what it says about credit ratings."

-- Barry Ritholtz, NYT

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Response by rangersfan
over 14 years ago
Posts: 877
Member since: Oct 2009

diversion tactics.

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Response by rangersfan
over 14 years ago
Posts: 877
Member since: Oct 2009

you think that house on fire over there is a spectacle, come look over here - the whole block is on fire!!

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Response by dwell
over 14 years ago
Posts: 2341
Member since: Jul 2008

Alan, I know this is the position some are taking, to disregard & demean S&P's warning. But, it does have meaning. However, if you want to disregard it, than just look at the pronouncements coming from the BRICK countries & especially China, our creditor.

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Response by rangersfan
over 14 years ago
Posts: 877
Member since: Oct 2009

BRIC, although BRICK might be more accurate if you are defining what is coming out of the azz of alan with some of these posts. and theyre not gold either.

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Response by jordyn
over 14 years ago
Posts: 820
Member since: Dec 2007

So your guys' theory is that people in the bottom 50% have more political power than people in the .1 - 10% range? (Let's assume it's people in the top .1% that are hiring lobbyists.) Is that seriously the argument that you're trying to make to justify your whining about taxes at this point? If this is the case, why have effective tax rates gone down more for these people than for people further down the income scale? That would be the opposite of the expected outcome of that ridiculous hypothesis.

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Response by rangersfan
over 14 years ago
Posts: 877
Member since: Oct 2009

jordyn, ding, ding, ding...can you hear it????

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Response by jason10006
over 14 years ago
Posts: 5257
Member since: Jan 2009

"..For the well-off, this could be the best tax day since the early 1930s: Top tax rates on ordinary income, dividends, estates, and gifts will remain at or near historically low levels for at least the next two years. That's thanks in part to legislation passed in December 2010 by the 111th Congress and signed by President Barack Obama.

"This is clearly far and away the most generous tax situation that's existed," says Gregory D. Singer, a national managing director of the wealth management group at AllianceBernstein (AB) in New York. "It's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity...

...For the 400 U.S. taxpayers with the highest adjusted gross income, the effective federal income tax rate—what they actually pay—fell from almost 30 percent in 1995 to just under 17 percent in 2007, according to the IRS. And for the approximately 1.4 million people who make up the top 1 percent of taxpayers, the effective federal income tax rate dropped from 29 percent to 23 percent in 2008. It may seem too fantastic to be true, but the top 400 end up paying a lower rate than the next 1,399,600 or so...."

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/11_16/b4224045265660.htm?chan=rss_topStories_ssi_5

Fair share!

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Response by rangersfan
over 14 years ago
Posts: 877
Member since: Oct 2009

fiddlesticks, missed it AGAIN!!

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Response by dwell
over 14 years ago
Posts: 2341
Member since: Jul 2008

sorry, extra K

>So your guys' theory is that people in the bottom 50% have more political power than people in the .1 - 10% range?<

No, rather this goes to the issue of tax w/o rep & no skin in the game. Yes, I know the "bottom 50%" are subject to sales tax & payroll tax, but, we're talking income tax.

I think this issue is way more pressing in jurisdictions like NYC, where we are subject to fed, state & local income tax vs. a place which only has Fed or Fed + state income tax.

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Response by jason10006
over 14 years ago
Posts: 5257
Member since: Jan 2009

"...Few Sympathize With Upper-Income Americans, Corporations on Taxes...

...Middle-income earners are perceived as the most aggrieved taxpayers: 44% of Americans say they pay too much, while only 5% say they pay too little and 50% say they pay "their fair share." By contrast, 13% of Americans say upper-income people pay too much and 59% believe they pay too little. Views about lower-income people are the most mixed, with 40% saying they pay too much vs. 21% too little and 37% their fair share. On the subject of taxes, Americans are the least sympathetic to corporations, with 67% saying they pay too little and only 9% too much...."

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/_ui1mex8aeyebbczxeehja.gif

and

http://www.gallup.com/poll/147152/Americans-Split-Whether-Taxes-High.aspx

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Response by rangersfan
over 14 years ago
Posts: 877
Member since: Oct 2009

again, great post by jason. benchmarking the top 400 US taxpayers. helpful, insightful and truly compelling....next post, derivatives lessons 101. followed up by calling everyone an idiot. to be topped off by a final post (with substantive proof of the balmy mediterranean climate of sf). truly not to be missed.....

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Response by dwell
over 14 years ago
Posts: 2341
Member since: Jul 2008

"...Few Sympathize With Upper-Income Americans, Corporations on Taxes..."

Yup, this is a problem because ultimately those "Upper-Income Americans" & Corporations will flee the US & then, the US ain't gonna have a tax base. If almost 50% don't pay income tax % the 50% that do pay leave, won't be anyone left to pay. In a global, mobile world, this is a reality.

Like Maggie said: “The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money.” When the payors split, ain't no more $.

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Response by sma202
over 14 years ago
Posts: 38
Member since: Jan 2007

actually, can someone explain why we are double, triple, quadruple taxed? I pay tax on income, tax on clothes, tax on food, tax on my phone bill, tax tax tax!!!

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Response by jason10006
over 14 years ago
Posts: 5257
Member since: Jan 2009

If you look at OECD stats, the best performing economies include Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Germany, Canda, and the Netherlands...while the richest nation in the OECD per capita for years has been Luxembourg. Meanwhile, in ultra-low tax Ireland and Iceland...

They COULD flee to say Switzerland, where they would find a healthcare system very much like Obamacare.

Or to utterly non-democratic Singapore or Hong Kong...

Or this is an utterly hollow and empty threat. They did not flee when rates were MUCH higher than they are now from the 1940s-2000.

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Response by sma202
over 14 years ago
Posts: 38
Member since: Jan 2007

"If you look at OECD stats, the best performing economies include Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Germany, Canda, and the Netherlands...while the richest nation in the OECD per capita for years has been Luxembourg. Meanwhile, in ultra-low tax Ireland and Iceland..."

Well you fail to mention that sweden, finland, denmark, norway have populations of 5-10mm or about the size of new york city. Size does matter.

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Response by dwell
over 14 years ago
Posts: 2341
Member since: Jul 2008

>actually, can someone explain why we are double, triple, quadruple taxed?<
Because we are sheep. We got to fight it & make sure we don't put anymore socialists in government, esply in the WH.

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Response by NWT
over 14 years ago
Posts: 6643
Member since: Sep 2008
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Response by julialg
over 14 years ago
Posts: 1297
Member since: Jan 2010

The young producers will be taxed at 70% to pay for the old people's retirement. They're very grateful to the hard working producers. Thanks for the transfer of wealth from the young to old. Unlike obama, the old people are grateful and will mot demonize the "rich".
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lJXo6d3Xs58/TEB1wLMeDtI/AAAAAAAAABw/9YqS3NxWsz8/s320/grumpy+old+people.jpg

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Response by alanhart
over 14 years ago
Posts: 12397
Member since: Feb 2007

So you guys think our economic policies should be dictated by the pronouncement of BRIC countries? If you hate the United States of America so much, why don't you move to Russia?

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Response by alanhart
over 14 years ago
Posts: 12397
Member since: Feb 2007

"actually, can someone explain why we are double, triple, quadruple taxed? I pay tax on income, tax on clothes, tax on food, tax on my phone bill, tax tax tax!!!"

Yes, gladly: you're highly taxed because the ultra-wealthy are not.

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Response by dwell
over 14 years ago
Posts: 2341
Member since: Jul 2008

http://www.renunciationguide.com/

This is becoming an increasingly popular law practice: lawyers who assist the wealthy to legally renounce US citizenship & obtain citizenship elsewhere.

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Response by alanhart
over 14 years ago
Posts: 12397
Member since: Feb 2007

I foretell a lot of starving attorneys in America. Oh, yeah, I see your point ...

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Response by alanhart
over 14 years ago
Posts: 12397
Member since: Feb 2007

*foresee*

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Response by LICComment
over 14 years ago
Posts: 3610
Member since: Dec 2007

liberals really make the silliest, most unsound arguments. jason's list of countries included major oil exporters with small populations, and this is his example of high taxes being good.

Only beggars who love handouts support government taking high percentages of income from the most productive and redistributing it to others.

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Response by dwell
over 14 years ago
Posts: 2341
Member since: Jul 2008

Alan,
I assume you're not in that tax bracket, so, it's not w/in your realm.

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Response by maly
over 14 years ago
Posts: 1377
Member since: Jan 2009

You mean like saudi Arabia or like Germany? LICC, I hope you are a troll, no-one should be that inept.

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Response by jason10006
over 14 years ago
Posts: 5257
Member since: Jan 2009

"...Taxes reach historic low

While Republican lawmakers appear unified against tax increases and many Tea Party activists want existing rates rolled back, statistics consistently show that federal taxes are at a historic low.

For the past two years, a family of four earning the median income has paid less in federal income taxes than at any time since at least 1955, according to the Tax Policy Center. All federal, state and local taxes combined are a lower percentage of per-capita income than at any time since the 1960s, according to the Tax Foundation. The highest income-tax bracket is its lowest since 1992. At 35 percent, it's well below the 50 percent mark of much of the 1980s and the 70 percent bracket of the 1970s...."

I have posted about 15 articles now showing that taxes are NOT high relative to either other OECD nations or to US post WW2 norms. In return I get Tea Party platitudes.

Once again, reality and the facts both have a well-knows liberal biases.

http://www.ocregister.com/news/-117079-ocprint--.html

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Response by jason10006
over 14 years ago
Posts: 5257
Member since: Jan 2009

"This is becoming an increasingly popular law practice: lawyers who assist the wealthy to legally renounce US citizenship & obtain citizenship elsewhere."

About 400 people have ever done this, and the trend is NOT accelerating.

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Response by NWT
over 14 years ago
Posts: 6643
Member since: Sep 2008

The biggest downside to renunciation: not being able to bitch and moan about taxes. The fellow-citizens in the new country won't want to hear it.

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Response by bob420
over 14 years ago
Posts: 581
Member since: Apr 2009

400 is too small a sample size? Didn't you just use the top 400 tax payers in your example. So if they leave, then your little post and linkies don't mean anything.

I can' believe jason10006 didn't comment in that thread about summer houses in Europe. The guy was looking for a mediterranean climate.

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Response by rangersfan
over 14 years ago
Posts: 877
Member since: Oct 2009

to know jason is to dismiss jason. as far as bitching and moaning and whining - all those adjectives suggest railing about sound system that is generally defendable in its construct, fairness and outcome. it has been blatanly apparent to anyone with a fair amount of reasoning and intellect that the model is severely broken and moreover - unsustainable. abuses are rampant and the conflicts are laughingly borderline criminal. ESPECIALLY here in nyc/nys. federal is a whole other pile of dung but it would be nice to clean up our backyard first.
you can espouse your dogma till youre blue in the face, things will change because they have to change. even the liberal leaning dems in office realize it. see andrew cuomo. so eff you, i aint leavin but you might be.....

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Response by alanhart
over 14 years ago
Posts: 12397
Member since: Feb 2007

rangersfan, I don't know how you can possibly doubt jason's integrity. He's an adult in New York who drinks milk -- a symbol of old-fashioned purity, like the Ivory Girl.

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Response by jason10006
over 14 years ago
Posts: 5257
Member since: Jan 2009

You dummy bob: when taxes by ANY measure were the same or higher than what Obama proposes for 60 years, only a few hundred every did what you say will certainly happen, and of them only a handful were super wealthy. Many of them (Marc Rich, for ex) were facing criminal charges and went to high tax Israel or France (because they could and because France has no extradition). Only a few of the few went to Switzerland - which is about the only place they COULD go with lower taxes amongst OECD nations (as ours are lower than 27 or 28 out of 30.)

Fail.

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Response by bob420
over 14 years ago
Posts: 581
Member since: Apr 2009

I never said anyone was leaving. I was just commenting on the fact that you scoffed at 400 people having done it as a number that too small to matter but previously were using a sample size of the 400 top earners as being significant. Most likely nobody is leaving the country. Alec Baldwin is still around.

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Response by happyrenter
over 14 years ago
Posts: 2790
Member since: Oct 2008

You dislike Jason's list of countries, but guess what? There is no rich democracy with low taxes. Not one. In order to have a well-ordered society the government requires significant revenue. UK, Canada, Australia, USA, France, Germany, Japan, not to mention Sweden, Norway, Denmark, and the Netherlands, are all high tax countries. It's not a coincidence that all rich democracies have high taxes.

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Response by rangersfan
over 14 years ago
Posts: 877
Member since: Oct 2009

alan, you never followed up on my sidecar invite....it hurt for awhile but i'm okay now.

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Response by alanhart
over 14 years ago
Posts: 12397
Member since: Feb 2007

A salve made from cognac, Grand Marnier and lemon juice will help ease the pain.

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Response by Gabolly
over 14 years ago
Posts: 35
Member since: Feb 2011

You guys are all hilarious. Anyway, a bigger problem than the taxes themselves is the abuses by the true parasites - not the really needy through no fault of their own - but the ones looking to scam or to be taken care of by everybody else. That would be the young woman at the fish counter asking if she can use her food stamps to buy lobster, the able-bodied young couple going in to a charity food distribution center to pick up fresh produce that has been picked in sweltering fields by senior volunteers, or the many-generations family living on welfare, food stamps, and in subsidized housing with their steady stream of illegitimate children born in the hospital with all expenses paid - all of them absolutely able to work, just not willing. Just a few examples, of say "gazillions," observed just by me.

I suspect the bleeding hearts posting here that think the "rich" should just open their bank accounts to such scum (there, I said it) must be very young with little life experience, so think that money goes only to the needy. Or maybe they're sheltered, or naive, or just plain dumb. Fix the welfare state, even if taxes stay the same, I'll feel better that my $$ may be going to education, infrastructure, national security. Not to that guy who just doesn't want to work.

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Response by happyrenter
over 14 years ago
Posts: 2790
Member since: Oct 2008

Gabolly, listen to yourself. You really think those are the real scammers? What about the hedge fund managers not paying taxes on their income? The bankers being bailed out by the federal government? I love all these ridiculous examples of things you have supposedly witnessed that tell us absolutely nothing. The idea of many generations living on "welfare" for instance. What programs are they living on? We have no programs that pay for healthy adults to live indefinitely on assistance. That simply doesn't exist.

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Response by alanhart
over 14 years ago
Posts: 12397
Member since: Feb 2007

By "observed", Gabolly means "fabricated out of malice".

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Response by rangersfan
over 14 years ago
Posts: 877
Member since: Oct 2009

happyrenter - ding, ding, ding - can you hear it?? like a dog whistle to you and jordyn.

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Response by Gabolly
over 14 years ago
Posts: 35
Member since: Feb 2011

Ya, no you are both incorrect. It's interesting that you'd rather pontificate than consider someone's real life experience. Just proves my point that you haven't really "been out there" to have any useful perspective. I agree - some of what goes on is quite ridiculous indeed - to the extent that you won't even believe it.

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Response by jason10006
over 14 years ago
Posts: 5257
Member since: Jan 2009

Switzerland has low taxes, that is an exception - though as with the US, the cantors have taxes SEPERATE fromthe central goverments. Put together, national and local taxes are on par to lower than in the US.

However, as i said before, they have Obama-style healthcare, complete with an indivudual mandate and susidies for the poor to buy insurance. They also have sooooo many silly little regulations on the big and most mundane things, it would drive any Ayn Rand or Tea Party lover insane.

In other words, they would be "socialist."

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Response by happyrenter
over 14 years ago
Posts: 2790
Member since: Oct 2008

Jason,

Switzerland is not low tax by the standards of the people complaining about current tax rates for the rich in the US. It is the lowest taxed of the rich countries, obviously, but still far more taxed than almost any poor or developing country, as well as the non-democracies.

Gabolly,

What program have you "witnessed" multiple generations of healthy adults living on without working? Your "real life experience" must have been with an actual government program that exists, right?

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Response by Gabolly
over 14 years ago
Posts: 35
Member since: Feb 2011

Happyrenter - not sure why you keep implying that I've made up the examples above. You are clearly someone who can not accept information or someone else's pov if it doesn't fit neatly with your thinking. You condescendingly say "listen to yourself" - maybe because that's all you do. Open your eyes, ears and mind. You'll have a more balanced perspective, and sound a lot more intelligent if you do.

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Response by columbiacounty
over 14 years ago
Posts: 12708
Member since: Jan 2009

i have opened my eyes, ears and mind. still not understanding what you're talking about.

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Response by aboutready
over 14 years ago
Posts: 16354
Member since: Oct 2007

gabolly, what do you do that has made you personally cognizant of such things? social worker maybe?

i'm not sure why you keep implying that such examples are typical. you are clearly someone who can not accept that the exceptions that you see are exceptions, because that wouldn't neatly fit within your thinking.

i'm neither particularly young, nor naive, and i've very much "been out there."

btw, can you quantify who you view as the "true parasites" for us? is it one percent of the population? two, five, ten, twenty? how much does it cost us, or you?

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Response by julialg
over 14 years ago
Posts: 1297
Member since: Jan 2010

Anyone who takes from other people are parasites . Anyone who demands that other people provide for them are parasites. Anyone who believes in fair share and shared sacrifice are parasites.

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Response by alanhart
over 14 years ago
Posts: 12397
Member since: Feb 2007

Large One, are you referring to robber barons?

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Response by columbiacounty
over 14 years ago
Posts: 12708
Member since: Jan 2009

Anyone who speaks in absolutes is a .....

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Response by huntersburg
over 14 years ago
Posts: 11329
Member since: Nov 2010

Wait, don't stop your sentence there, tell us the answer, please.

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Response by huntersburg
over 14 years ago
Posts: 11329
Member since: Nov 2010

>liberals really make the silliest, most unsound arguments. jason's list of countries included major oil exporters with small populations, and this is his example of high taxes being good.

I actually kind of feel sorry for Jason. He clearly likes the west coast, so he can only be here for career reasons or a girlfriend. But yet, there's no indication his career is going well at all (I think we are at columbiacounty level of failure) and he doesn't even try to pretend he's got an attractive girlfriend or spouse while people like Wbuttocks are so easily able to talk about their "girlfriend in Brooklyn".

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