LIC Sucks

This is soooo tempting to comment on....

I was in LIC yesterday morning talking to a few builders, having a look around. Too many towers, too close together, built too quickly. It's like dark city. It's not the canyons of Manhattan. It's all corners and angles. Water taxi beach is a parking lot covered with sand. Up close, the Powerhouse looks like an amusement park ride of some sort. The balconies were already starting to sag on of the buildings still under construction.

People, let's be fair. LIC sucks, but it does so very well.

If you don't have something nice to say about a place, come sit here near me.

80sMan, as a fellow cyclist, you may appreciate this. I've taken two rides across the Queensboro Bridge and into LIC recently, the first time w/ a buddy, the second time solo. We knew the area's reputation, but still couldn't believe what an utter wasteland it was when we first pulled in. There's the first of many strip clubs at the foot of the bridge with a new tower a few doors down. The bridge and train tracks are loud and hideous. The people living alongside them will be miserable. I do think that Gantry Plaza State Park is beautiful, and there's a small buffer zone around it (2-3 blocks?), but beyond that it's bleak and wretched for a long distance in every direction. I actually did like Water Taxi Beach, and the Socarates Sculpture Park further north (near the Piano Factory condos), but biking (very quickly) through the PJs on a hot day with hundreds of people partying on the gounds while music blasted from car stereos was a trip. The Powerhouse is beyond hideous (could there be worse match for old red brick than orange-brown metal?) and the Foundry is so low to the ground and hidden away, I thought it was the low/middle income component of one of the waterfront towers.

As many new developments as there are, there is still so much bleak, ugly space between them, not to mention so much poverty, there is no way it's all just going to disappear to make room for the great new neighborhood that's been promised. I could see the waterfront becoming a tight enclave that some people (those who don't mind never walking further than the nearest subway stop) may enjoy, but the rest of it will never seem like more than lipstick buildings on a pig neighborhood.

Sorry to dump on the area so hard, but I was holding my tongue through the Star Tower investment property thread, and "LIC Sucks" seemed like the appropriate place.

At some point people will need to stop referring to "LIC" which makes up:
Astoria, Hunters Point, Blissville, Ravenswood, Dutch Kills, Bowery Bay, Steinway, Sunnyside and Queens Plaza.

I agree, the Queens Plaza area is hideous and I would never choose to buy or invest in the queens plaza area. Sunnyside and Astoria are well established neigbborhoods but skew slightly more middle class.

Hunters point, which includes Ct Square, is (as Tenemental says) someday goign to be a nice place to live. Ct Square probably has longer to go and unfortunatley borders the brindge/queens plaza.

Long Island City is a big area and it needs some marketing work so that the smaller areas can stand out. Hunters point gets thrown in with everythign else and it really should be referred to as Hunters Point...just as Astoria is referred to as Astoria.

But yes, I would be afraid of getting stabbed after ridding my bike over the 59th street bridge.

"is (as Tenemental says) someday goign to be a nice place to live."

So will Mars. Someday.

lobo, I don't know the neighborhood breakdown, but a Google map search tells me that Court Square is where Thompson and Jackson Aves meet, and that Hunters Point is around 44th Drive and 11th St, but there's also the Hunterspoint Ave subway and LIRR stops further south, so it there? I don't mean to be bitchy, but to be clear, I'm not at all optimistic about the development of any of those areas after what I saw. The immediate Gantry waterfront has an appeal, but still seems very price-challenged given the harsh change just a few blocks away.

Great Steve, then you'll be able to return home some day.

Hunters point is what most people would consider the gantry waterfront area that you describe, it would be fair to say that it cuts off at Jackson. Yes, it technically goes back towards the Hunters Point stop which is really closer to Sunnyside/Blissville - the stop is technically over the train tracks/sunnyside yards. The Vernon/Jackson stop (1st subway stop on the 7) is the only area that I would consider. Astoria is also a cool area but not really my scene and Sunnyside is a nice neighborhood but a bit more ethnic. Anyhow, when most people (not all) refer to LIC, they really mean Hunters Point, but that's just becasue they don't know any better.

Here is a link to a map for reference: http://z.about.com/d/queens/1/0/G/map.gif

So, when most people are arguing that LIC is a great place, they really mean to say Hunters Point. Those same people would probably agree with you when you say that Queens Plaza or the area behind the train tracks (ironically the Hunters Point train stop) are not great areas. Just like people that live on the Upper East side would tell you that the projects in the 90's are less desireable - or the equivalent of the 30's on the far west side for people in Chelsea - or bed-stuy for people in brooklyn heights.

My only point is that Long Island City (which actually used to be a city) is one of the largest districs in the entire city. So, it's kind of tough to make a blanket statement about LIC. So, this article, which acurately describes Court House Square, the area right next to queens plaza as haveing a lack of ammeneties for people that work at the Citicorp tower is correct. There are also significant plans to bring two of the largest commercial projects in the city to that area right now. One has just broken ground and tishman spyer is in the process of tearing down the big municipal parking lot to start theirs. Anyhow, I wouldn't want to work in Court House Square either ... but I wouldn't mind living in Hunters Point/ The waterfront ... but that's just my opinion.

"Great Steve, then you'll be able to return home some day."

Great post, LMAO!

BTW one of my favorite Bugs Bunny is when he meets the little green man from the moon. I loved science fiction since I was 3.

And LIC being a "nice place" is as science fiction as it comes.

The problem with LIC is price. For the price they are asking ( in any part of LIC ) is way to much given the condition of the area. Everyone says it's developing, that's great but they are asking as if it's already completed. Their is no nightlife. The whole claim to fame for LIC is it's proximity to Manhattan. That's great because every-time you want to go out to dinner you have to go to Manhattan or another part of Queens.

LIC benefited from the obscene market over the last 5 years. People lost sight of the market and what they were paying. It was a mob mentality. I still remember pictures of people lining up around corners to buy a place. It's all over. The market has changed and will never get that way again. Lending standards will eliminate 50% of potential buyers. This market can't afford to lose any potential buyers. The buyers that will be left will be in the driver seat. Not to mention those with the 20-30% down payment and 800 credit scores tend to be well educated buyers, which of course will make sales and negotiations more difficult for sometime.

It's not going to be pretty.

Its usually the mediocre stuff that has the biggest run up in bubbles (and biggest falls in crashes). Frothy markets make people ignore major shortcomings...

What people refer to as Astoria and Steinway differs person to person - the area north of Ditmars appeared on maps ages ago as "Steinway." "Astoria" on most maps does not include the area of the Ravenswood Houses. The area south of the LIE has no connection to any other of these other areas mentioned. There are parts of LIC that are nothing but warehouses, even now. The area around the design center and LaGuardia Comm Coll is still LIC, yet is separated by the Sunnyside Yards from the area most people think of as LIC

I am surprised that when people want to dump on LIC they miss their two best opportunities. I think one needs to live out in Western Queens to know these flaws. First is the highly touted convenient access to Manhattan. Not true. Get onto the Manhattan bound #7 train at morning rush hour. It is so crowded you'll do well to find a place to stand. If there's a delay of even one or two trains, the buildup of riders who could not get on the normal trains is so severe that the platform gets dangerous. After you get on the #7 in Sunnyside, it then has quite a few more stop to go before it comes to the Vernon/Jackson stop which people claim is so convenient. One of those stops is Queensboro Plaza, where #7 riders get off to take the N, but N riders also get on to take the #7. Before it gets to Vernon/Jackson it stops at the Hunters Point station, where one line of the LIRR terminates. Rush hour commuters visibly hold their noses and cringe their faces as they squeeze onto the trains with all the people they pay to live 30 miles to the east of.

Then it finally stops at Vernon/Jackson. But mind you, not at the waterfront. No, waterfront dwellers must walk several long blocks to get to this station. Good luck getting on to it.

Oh, you give up on the subway? Well, just what option do you resort to? Walk across a bridge? What bridge would that be? The entrance to the pedestrian lane of the 59th St. Bridge is at least a mile on foot from the waterfront condos. Try the E train at the Citicorp Building? Same drill, different train. Oh, that pedestrian lane of the 59th St. Bridge used to be not open to pedestrians during rush hours. May have changed. Hail a cab? I don't think so. Call a car service? Yes, you can do that, but you are in a traffic bottlekneck.

The second point to make if you want to scare people off from LIC is the sewage treatment plant over in Greenpoint, just the other side of the Newtown Creek. Some days the wind blows the noxious fumes over into parts of LIC.

But with all of that, LIC is one stop from Grand Central, not several stops away from Union Square on the L train. Greenpoint doesn't even have a subway directly into Manhattan. See above and add to it. The poverty ones sees around Queens Plaza is no big deal if you travel around the five boros, and when all the new construction is finishe and residents move in, you have a blank screen to work with.

lowery - point taken about the crowded #7 train. But what subway ISN'T crowded at rush hour? When I lived in Sunnyside in the 1970's - and got the train at 40th / Lowery St - it was approximately a 15 min, six stop ride to GCT, right near where I happened to work. There are certainly WORSE commutes.

This thread should be renamed "A Bunch of Clueless People Who Know Nothing About LIC".

Uh, yeah. Anybody who doesn't think LIC is doubling his money is "clueless".

Wow, some people have a really big need to rationalize...

"A Bunch of Clueless People Who Know Nothing About LIC".

Actually, anybody who didn't buy there would seem to know a lot about there.

Or at least a lot more about there than LICC, who bought there yet incessantly opines about Manhattan real estate, which he has a view of, but cannot touch.

"The problem with LIC is price. For the price they are asking ( in any part of LIC ) is way to much given the condition of the area. Everyone says it's developing, that's great but they are asking as if it's already completed."

I have the same feeling about prices in West Chelsea, except that I'm pretty sure West Chelsea is going to become the neighborhood everybody says it already is in the next five years. I don't think LIC ever will.

Lowery, that explains the smell. On both rides I crossed the Pulaski into Greenpoint, then down to the WB Bridge, and at some northern point there was a stretch that smelled (reeked) of something that made me think 'dirty gym socks.'

BTW, I'm not just picking on LIC. After riding past endless warehouses and plenty of abandoned (certainly abandoned looking) buildings near the water in lower Greenpoint/upper WB, it's obvious there will never, ever be a shortage of inventory in those neighborhoods. With the rezoning, there is an unbelievable amount of developable space.

If you can buy in LIC, you can buy in Manhattan. You get more space for your money in LIC. Thanks for another ignorant comment steve. Did you pay your rent check this month?

LICComment, no.

tenemental, maybe you should try taking a spin through Compton, North Philly, or Detroit? It could be a new form of investigative reporting, extreme sport, or death wish.....not sure which.

JuiceMan, great idea. I have to admit to a fascination with urban decay. I like the athletic angle: Urban X-Games. Those guys (and gals) are courting death, anyway.

I'm sure LICComment had a coronary when he saw the neighborhoods you chose for comparsion.

Now I've got vocoded Tupac going through my head. "In the cityyyyyy...city of Compton."

JuiceMan/Tenemental, I rode in the area around Jackson av and Veron blvd and I don't find the area dangerous just desolate. It seems LIC is a bedroom community for Manhattan workers. Like Jersey City, with a shorter commute and higher taxes.

sorry LICC, I wasn't comparing LIC to those neighborhoods, I have never been to LIC so I don't comment on the area. I just found the picture of tenemental riding a $1000 bike through desolate urban areas funny.

Nah, JuiceMan, my ride's less upscale than that.

80sMan, if you read my posts again you'll see I wasn't calling the area dangerous per se, just vast, barren, ugly (save for Gantry) and, from what I could see, predominatly lower-income. The huge, loud party going on outside the PJs further north was pretty intense (and yes, my bike is probably theft-worthy), but I don't know the crime stats for the area.

A friend took me to a restaurant in the Grove St. area of JC last year. Much nicer, I thought, than most of LIC.

tenemental, sorry, I lumped you in with JM's comments on Compton.

Everything's cool in LIC as long as don't make a wrong turn and end up in the Queensbridge Houses...

"They" have been saying LIC is the place to be because of up and coming developments for the past 10 years. This, I think, is disseminated by city agencies, developers, and real estate firms, trying expand their markets. Buildings going up are ugly, developer designs that won't last, responding to the increase in price over the last 5 years in the market in Manhattan. What will happen when the market decreases? There is nothing to nurture communities, and the residential towers are surrounded by roads and light manufacturing. I'll give it another 10 years, especially with this economy.

Wow there is a lot of dumb commentary here. The rezoning in 2004 is what really got LIC going. Yes, the area was desolate, and now it is changing. It is not completely developed yet, but it is happening fast. Every time you look, you see more progress. It will take some time for everything to look like a fully-established residential area, maybe another 2 years. In the meantime, it looks better and better as the development is happening, more retail and amenities are opening up, and more and more people are moving to the area.

clear_vision, the point of buying in LIC is to sell it at a higher price in the near future. At least that's how it was marketed to me by brokers. What do you do if you can't sell it for a higher price? Sell it for a lower price? Live there? If you buy there 3 things can happen and 2 of them are bad. The North Brooklyn waterfront is increasingly charming. If they add lights to East River State park and add a city park where the Police Harbor and Bayside Gas supply company sits...we may have a winner.

First: Astoria is completely different than LIC. Astoria is a settled and established community. Anchored by Greek and Yugoslavian (and probably other--I'm no expert) immigrants in the past, the "bargains" in Astoria have long since been gobbled up. Restaurants are vibrant and varied, there are the essentials any livable area has to have (movies, groceries, shops, dry cleaners, bars) and some "soul" to the district. LIC near the waterfront is a wasteland other than the new developments. To the north of the bridge, getting closer to Astoria it is just kind of dingy.

Second: as you head over the 59th St. bridge into Queens, you can see the Ravenswood Houses to your left. It remains one of the most crime-ridden, dreadful projects in NYC and not an area you want to explore even in broad daylight. The absense of a street grid between the buildings results in nooks and crannies of darkness and danger. Far from some park-like utopia, the planners created a segregated collection of oddly shaped buildings that seems to reinforce through architecture that the residents are unequal and separate from the rest of the city. It is shameful. Regardless, I would rather live in a smaller apartment with a single bathroom in Manhattan than live anywhere near this project in a larger apartment.

Third: in a cooler market the fringes pull back--they do not thrive. LIC is very fringe. Sunnyside is already a real neighborhood. So is Astoria. It's going to be at least a decade before LIC is a solid 'hood that is a real alternative to Manhattan living and even that will take some shifting and evolution of the current factors that effect RE. Investing in LIC RE may not be insane, but it is highly speculative and not for those who can't affort complete stagnation or erosion of investment capital. I remain baffled by the prices of these new developments and the people who even two years ago were willing to pay these crazy prices to live in the middle of a wasteland because they could see the promised land to the west from their windows.

> If you can buy in LIC, you can buy in Manhattan.

I think Sinatra sang that one. Or maybe that was Hoboken.

"Thanks for another ignorant comment steve. Did you pay your rent check this month?"

Yes I did, and it cost me exactly half what a mortgage, maintenance, and property tax would cost for the exact same place. Not to mention all the principal lost by recent buyers in new developments where prices are being slashed.

"Yes, the area was desolate, and now it is changing. It is not completely developed yet, but it is happening fast."

Yes, I remember you said that they were opening up a DUANE READE!

Wow! That's development!

"Sunnyside is already a real neighborhood. So is Astoria."

Fully agree.

I just had to chime in here about this from kylewest:

"Second: as you head over the 59th St. bridge into Queens, you can see the Ravenswood Houses to your left. It remains one of the most crime-ridden, dreadful projects in NYC and not an area you want to explore even in broad daylight."

Ravenswood is actually a completely different, smaller and somewhat safer housing project (there are like 3 that I know of probably within a mile of the bridge) a few blocks further down. The PJs you are referring to are the Queensbridge projects, the largest housing projects in North America AND if I'm not mistaken they are building a new hire-rise literally across the street from them on 21st street. If you've ever listened to a Nas album (although from what I've heard those PJs aren't quite as scary as they were in the 80's) you'd know better than to spend top dollar to live there. I'm not necessarily a LIC hater, but seeing that cracked me up.

"The b-b-b-bridge. The bridge. Queensbridge" - Mc Shan

> Yes, I remember you said that they were opening up a DUANE READE!
> Wow! That's development

Wow, now LIC can be on par with Roosevelt Island! Everyone there can afford Manhattan, they just wanted to be closer to the tram.

tenemental - "I have to admit to a fascination with urban decay."

Me too. I used to love to explore the more obscure corners of Qns and Bklyn.

About the 15-min subway commute from Sside -- I agree, mostly, but remember, after you get on at 40th St (which I did for 15 years), that train has to pick up MORE people, and I have a vivid memory of it being impossible to get on at Vernon/Jackson by the time the packed trains pulled in there. I also saw an incredible deterioration in the #7 service beginning the late '80s when the MTA started "improving" it. Each "improvement" had some flaw that had to be corrected in the next round of "improvements," and I eventually grew frustrated with the days that there was literally NO #7 service to Manhattan. So try take it from Vernon/Jackson. Now add the thousands of condo residents....

I disagree with all this about how LIC will never be anything, though. The most noticeable improvements in NYC areas are those that start from the bottom, such as the ranch homes off of Boston Road in the Bronx where all the politicians went for their photo ops when it looked Koeln in 1945. But the talk about how LIC was going to be this great thing has gone on for 30 years, and the progress has been glacial. Compare that with Jersey City, another dark, depressing waterfront area 25 years ago.

I mentioned the Domino's Sugar Factory in another post for a reason -- that strip was so ugly and bleak it was beautiful. Now it's part of the redevelopment of Wmsburg/Grnpt.

I actually don't get all this talk about the Qnsbridge Houses, because the "cool" parts of Astoria that have been drawing the most Manhattan transplants the longest is near those houses. I don't see how they're any worse than the projects down by Ft. Greene on the Bklyn waterfront, or Coney Island's projects, or the ones just east of Third Ave in the 100s.

forgot to mention - my favrite ugly area of NYC was 35th St., 37t St., Starr Ave, Railroad Ave. in LIC, between the Newtown Creek and Calvary Cemetery. I literally ran into wild dogs in the streets and felt in danger from ANIMALS, not people.

lowery--

Queensbridge (the Bridge) isn't in Astoria, it's 100% Long Island City. What we (or more specifically the bank) consider Astoria begins at 36th Ave. The QB area is literally only projects (from like 14th st to 21st street I think) so I'm not sure who could be drawn to it since I'm not aware of rentals in the PJs. You might be talking about other projects in Astoria (because there are more than a few developments in Astoria proper) but not QB.

Again I'm not saying the area sucks (I chose to buy a co op in Astoria) but I'm just saying let's be honest about what it is. Also, like I said, QB is the biggest housing project in North America so it can't really be compared to other places. Plus as a native NYer I gotta tell ya no one has or will ever run to live by the projects in Coney Island. My dad grew up in that area so I'm not just speculating, I know.

I was SO wrong. I absolutely meant Queensbridge Houses--not Ravenswood at all. Thank you for the correction. My bad.

My experience frequenting areas near projects and gentrified area is that both can coexist in the same vicinity. The EV for instance is pretty safe. As a New Yorker, we know where we can walk and at what times of the day we can stroll by a certain street. Ave D is walkable during the day but not at night. Once you turn the corner into a side street, it's another world with the occasional new construction condo. I too am familiar with Queensbridge. Most of you on this board will have no business walking through the courtyard of those projects as they are confined to square blocks. Outside of the blocks are walkable during the day, but I wouldn't want to be under the bridge over there at night. Most LIC buyers should not be scared away by the project, it's a non-issue. I'd stay away because LIC is over priced.

kimerama - the borders of Astoria change depending on who you're talking to - the cool, hip young transplants from Manhattan like to be on the subway stop as close as possible to Manhattan, so the closer in Astoria they are to Manhattan, the closer they are to those projects - I forgot to mention another area every bit as bleak and scarey once as people describe LIC as today - Columbia Street, Brooklyn, which realtors would try to call "Cobble Hill West." I would never try to sell anyone on any area within LIC. It was only an attractive alternative to expensive NYC neighborhoods when it was cheap. Not cheapER, but CHEAP. The idea of paying near-Manhattan prices there is a sign of just how overheated the market has gotten. BUT..... that's New York. Over the decades the demographic mix of all five boroughs has changed dramatically. We're going through hiring freezes and layoffs now, but in the bigger picture it's just a blip. And some of us remember when the housing projects behind Lincoln Center were thought of in terms every bit as melodramatic as those Queens projects are being described. And yes, it was dangerous to walk in that area of West End, Amsterdam, etc.

The "cool, hip young transplants" live along the Broadway, 30th Ave, Astoria Boulevard stops on the N, W which are further out. That's where the action is. 39th Ave, the first stop after Queensboro, is desolate and slummy. The next stop is the border of LIC and Astoria (according to all the banks and appraisers I dealt with), 36th Ave.

If I need to take the F train I will sometimes take a bus or walk to "The Bridge" to catch it so I know first hand that it's fine during the day (and not exactly Compton at night). My point was that I don't think the nabe is worth the money they are asking and since things are about to get worse before they get better, I do think living next to a ginormous housing project is something you should consider before putting down huge sums of money.

People who say that waterfront condos with Manhattan skyline views, a 5-minute subway ride to Grand Central, at 60% of comparable Manhattan prices, are overpriced or not "worth the money," are people who can't afford to buy there and are bitter. The new developments are not next to the housing projects. The new developments closest to the projects are at Queens Plaza, and even those aren't next to the projects.
LIC doesn't want the haters anyway, those of you making all the inaccurate comments, please stay away.

Dude I take the train overlooking all the construction every day and it does appear that SOMETHING is being built on 21st St.

I actually hope the nabe does live up to all the hype (of the past 30 years) sometime in my life.

The "cool, hip young transplants" live along the Broadway, 30th Ave, Astoria Boulevard stops on the N, W which are further out. That's where the action is. 39th Ave, the first stop after Queensboro, is desolate and slummy. The next stop is the border of LIC and Astoria (according to all the banks and appraisers I dealt with), 36th Ave.

-- Yes Broadway stop is the third one, so it takes only 7-10 min to get from Broadway to 59&Lex.
And if you compare rents in Manhattan to rents in new construction buildings in Astoria for many it make sense.

Studio in Manhattan $1600-$2300, 1Br in Astoria - $1600-1800/month, 2Br in Astoria - $2500 (could be less in private sector)

For how long do you think package money from layoffs on Wall Street would last before they would consider moving into cheaper housing? How big a rent would one be able to afford from base salary if bonuses no longer there with rental buildings asking "40 x Monthly Rent"?

So Astoria (with all its convinience) will see more cool, hip and young quite soon.

elena
(broker)

"People who say that waterfront condos with Manhattan skyline views, a 5-minute subway ride to Grand Central, at 60% of comparable Manhattan prices, are overpriced or not "worth the money," are people who can't afford to buy there and are bitter."

Wow, way to pull out the facts at that one. Bitter much? And this is the guy calling other folks names? Not to mention that Jersey City has pretty much all of that...

Also, 60% of another market in decline still means you're declining... not to mention, LIC has a GLUT, Manhattan does not.

> LIC doesn't want the haters anyway,

Wow, back to third grade again, huh?

I remember the kids who didn' thave any friends saying stuff like "well, I didn't WANT to be your friend, stupid" a whole lot, too...

"People who say that waterfront condos with Manhattan skyline views, a 5-minute subway ride to Grand Central, at 60% of comparable Manhattan prices, are overpriced or not "worth the money," are people who can't afford to buy there and are bitter. The new developments are not next to the housing projects. The new developments closest to the projects are at Queens Plaza, and even those aren't next to the projects.
LIC doesn't want the haters anyway, those of you making all the inaccurate comments, please stay away."

No me. I chose Manhattan over any part of LIC for the following reasons-
- LIC is not a neighborhood yet. I need to live in my apt now, not 8 years from now.
- The commute is NOT 5 mins to manhattan. You add the walk from the waterfront and you have yourself at least 15 mins on a crowded and smelly train. My commute now is 10 mins door to door.

These are my major reasons. I have tossed the idea around to live in LIC, but it doesn't play.

Jersey City isn't a 5-minute train to Grand Central, now is it Eddie? Another dumb comment from EW. I know you may need to review a map, you'll see that LIC is closer to midtown, Jersey City is closer to downtown.

I never said the commute is 5 minutes. I said the subway ride is 5 minutes. This has nothing to do with LIC. Wherever you live, if you have to walk to the subway you need to add that time to your commute. People who live on York Ave. have to walk a decent amount west to get to the subway. The commute from LIC to midtown is quicker than from most Manhattan neighborhoods.
Some people would rather live in a much smaller space to be in Manhattan, while others like having more space for the money and just as easy access while living elsewhere. To each his own.

Anyone know what is being built adjacent to the Midtown Tunnel toll plaza on the Queens side? As you enter the toll from Queens there is a building going up to the left that was covered in yellow construction stuff and is now covered in lime green construction stuff. Is that residential? Is anyone going to live over the tunnel toll? Can you imagine the fumes and black soot that are going to permeate the place?

It's a condo:
http://www.prudentialelliman.com/MainSite/NHD/NHDInfo.aspx?ID=308&SearchType=newdev&PageName=home&location=NYC&sublocation=Q

barskaya / elena - I think you make a good case. Especially regarding wall street severance running out (the December-March people laid off are just now seeing their salary stop) and low bonuses = scaled back lifestyle - - making conserving cash in your living situation very attractive (rather than sweating out a market-rate manhattan rent).

I disagree to the extent LIC is being discussed. These financial industry people--senior and junior--aren't hypotheticals to me. I know many of them. I can't imagine one saying, "Oh, I have no bonus and may lose my job. I better conserve money. Hmmm. How to do that? I know. I'll move to a new deveolopment in Long Island City." Come on. If money is tight, risking it on an unproven area of a borough that has been in transition (and that's being kind) since the Real World first aired, and in a new development no less, is not how you tighten the belt or scale back your lifestyle. I think that is naive if the suggestion is LIC will gain any new takers in a down financial market. As for Astoria, I agree to the extent it is established, a real community, and a conceivable alternative to a Manhattan lifestyle. The biggest problem is that it isn't exactly a steal anymore.

kylewest, you are correct! LIC at $500 psf is risky enough, but $800-1000 is a disaster. I'd buy in the Financial District for that kind of money. The closest ghetto from FD is Chinatown and that's a pretty safe area.

kimerama - "since things are about to get worse before they get better, I do think living next to a ginormous housing project is something you should consider before putting down huge sums of money."

Also, it's worth pointing out that the projects along Amsterdam Ave. north of W.60th are now surrounded by much larger, and more numerous, luxury highrise rentals and condos, and the sheer ginormosity of the Qnsbrj houses makes it unlike they will be surrounded by and swallowed up by the new developments in the Qns Plaza area. People who move frm the City to Qns often begin by looking for the closest spot on the maps to the City, and then if they dig around find that they're better off going a little further away, to where the first neighbors are, the ones you have described in Astoria, and also Sunnyside, going east instead of north. People looking to invest and considered a condo near Qns Plaza ought to look up around Broadway/Steinway St., where amenities are crammed next to each other. But the first landing point in Qns is always the terminus of the 59th St. Bridge and/or the first subway stops in the boro.

newaccount, thanks for showing everyone that you think you can buy a good apartment in the Financial District for the same prices as LIC, and that in your opinion, Chinatown is a "ghetto." Thanks for showing everyone how clueless you are.

lowery--yes exactly. I mentioned on earlier threads that I'm looking to buy in Manhattan in a few weeks and I wouldn't think twice about buying an apartment in the west 60's (I honestly don't even recall noticing the projects there). I do however have reservations about the projects and tons of HDFCs further north in the Manhattanville area, actually more safety reservations than I have about LIC. I see that area (with plenty of upcoming, affordable condos popping up in converted buildings) as risky as well in this economy so it's not that I'm just picking on LIC. I (and plenty of other buyers who arent foreign trust fund kids) need a place to immediately live in and I can't afford to wait a decade to feel safe and for my investment to maybe pay off.

I just feel like in this market people should wait for actual grocery stores and like neighbors before committing to an area like LIC. Also, maybe wait for the strip joints to close. One of those new luxury towers is situated RIGHT on top of a strip club. I just don't get it.

I'm still laughing over this one...

"People who say that [lic condos] are overpriced or not "worth the money," are people who can't afford to buy there and are bitter."

That to me sounds like the words of a bitter person. I think kylewest has the actual story down, where marginal places like LIC are the biggest haircuts in crashes.

> I can't imagine one saying, "Oh, I have no bonus and may lose my job.
> I better conserve money. Hmmm. How to do that? I know. I'll move to a
> new deveolopment in Long Island City."

Absolutely. My bulge bracket and hedge fund friends would move to tiny studios in the east east 90s before having to admit they had to move to LIC. I'm figuring some might just leave town.

> If money is tight, risking it on an unproven area of a borough that has been
> in transition (and that's being kind) since the Real World first aired,
> and in a new development no less, is not how you tighten the belt or
> scale back your lifestyle.

Bingo.

LICComment, if anyone were to venture into new territory, the Financial District is the place to be, not LIC. The proximity to transportation and especially if you work in the Wall St area is perfect. We already know your agenda so resorting to name calling just shows that you are an idiot who made a bad investment and is trying to promote it to others. The southern most area near the FD with people who you may not want to live with would be Chinatown and the Smith projects. You're spending too much time on QueensWest and StreetEasy message boards and too little time researching legitimate sources. Ya douche!

Absolutely. I think we might have a little bit more waiting - particularly because we still have some big holes in the ground - but I think long term FiDi is going to be a pretty powerful RE spot, particularly when the critical mass hits, and the inevitable retail changeover is completed. Its got the transportation, the infrastructure, the building stock (some great old conversions), the "on the island" factor, the water, the office/residential mix... all it needs is the hip factor, and that might actually be coming quicker than I thought (Amy Sacco??) Now, I don't know if I'd want to be living there over the next few waiting for it (especially in a RE and Wall Street crash), but if I had to make a 5-7 year bet, I think thats where I'd go. I think Brooklyn already has "it" factor priced in, and its wearing off, and I think Queens started to rise on anticipation of some "it" factor that will never come.

BTW, my 7-10 year bet would be... the Upper East Side. All I know is, EVERY group of people I know does not want to live there. When ibank analysts and girls from Jersey don't want to go there (the two groups always the last to the cool spots), you know its bottoming out. I literally can't think of one person I know talking RE who hasn't bad mouthed it in the last few years (including folks on the UWS). Not saying it will be the perfect neighborhood for everyone, but its strengths are fairly undeniable... the Park, the buildings, the history, the location... Brooklyn Bridge Park whatever, there will never be another Central Park (partially because Prospect Park will never be blocks from the midtown). Watch, Madonna or somebody will move back up there. And, I haven't even mentioned the 2nd ave subway yet.

> We already know your agenda so resorting to name calling just shows that you are an
> idiot who made a bad investment and is trying to promote it to others.

Wow, newaccount, you're 2 for 2!

> just as easy access

BTW, is anyone really claiming that the ibanking analyst are taking the 7 train home at 3am on Friday night? Anyone pretending LIC has anywhere near the same "access" as neighborhoods you can essentially walk home to, or a quick cab? Particularly if you are talking young + disposable income, you're not talking late night 7 train. Sounds like someone else needs a map.

Next, how the hell is Grand Central the central location you want to be? unless you are a japanese tourist, noone is calling the east 40s anything resembling a residential destination. Hell, if its access to business centers, sounds like LIC is up there competing with New Roc City. Maybe they'll put a mall in LIC too! Try going out where the people who actually have the bucks go out, and none of those have anything resembling easy "access" from LIC.

I also forgot, you can also make the same awesome LIC arguments about Roosevelt Island! I hear the Goldman associates are all moving into the Octagon, too.

> If money is tight, risking it on an unproven area of a borough that has been
> in transition (and that's being kind) since the Real World first aired,
> and in a new development no less, is not how you tighten the belt or
> scale back your lifestyle.

Ouch harsh. There are plenty of established places to live in Queens with plenty of established and well-off people living in them (Douglaston, Forest Hills, sections of Bayside and Kew Gardens). It's just that Queens has always traditionally been a family place, not the spot with the coolest bars. I think it's fair to say that there are plenty of neighborhoods in Queens that are in transition and that will continue to be for a while. I'm not a champion of Queens, especially now, but I am from Queens and I don't know who generally decides what boroughs are cool to live in and which are uncool but they always seem to be NY transplants.

EddieWilson, I'm not sure how long long-term is to you in FiDi, but the last report I read (in the Real Deal - I posted it on another thread a little while back) had demand in the area way down while a ton of inventory is yet to come online.

At 3am taxi from Midtown Manhattan to Astoria ourdays cost $20.

An acquaintance of mine, who worked for Lehman, was renting 2 BR. apartment with his friend in the Hunters Point, when there were only 2 towers. He was using cab to get to work at 5am.

Last week I was told by a friend of mine that their new employee lost her job on Wall street and moved from Manhattan to Astoria. Her new job has nothing to do with banking.

elena
(broker)

Kimerama, you misread my post. My point was many neighborhoods in Queens are very established communities with many reasons to live in them. I in no way put down these communities. In fact, they have a tremendous amount to offer. It was LIC I was addressing and you took the quote above out of context. It pertains only to LIC in the context of the OP>

"EddieWilson, I'm not sure how long long-term is to you in FiDi, but the last report I read (in the Real Deal - I posted it on another thread a little while back) had demand in the area way down while a ton of inventory is yet to come online."

Oh, absolutely. Note I said a 5-7 year bet (and I would still be delaying the purchase for at least 12 months). The inventory increase is huge as a percentage, but the important part of my post was the critical mass part... once there is enough of a mass where new inventory coming online is a smaller % than current, I think the prospects are good.

But, if it wasn't clear, I think pretty much everything in Manhattan is going to be significantly cheaper in 12 months, meaning any "investment" should not be happening right now

BTW, as for Barsaka..

> At 3am taxi from Midtown Manhattan to Astoria ourdays cost $20.

And, again, who the hell is hanging out in midtown at 3am? Try that taxi from the east village.... you're looking at pretty much double

> An acquaintance of mine, who worked for Lehman

In the tech group? Find me an ibanking analyst living in Queens, and I'll show you one who is getting laughed at.

> Last week I was told by a friend of mine that their new employee lost her job on
> Wall street and moved from Manhattan to Astoria

So, somebody making $35 grand a year lives in Queens. What's your point? They're going to help buy up all the overpriced condo inventory in LIC?

kimerama - to give an idea how dramatic the changes in the W. 60s are, look at the building 515 W. 59th St - in the mid '80s it stood out from the surroundings - the entire block was it and its parking lot - I was there Friday and couldn't even see it standing a block away until I searched for it - to the west it no longer had the Hudson River views but was drawrfed by TWO big glass skyscrapers - the parking lot had shrunk and the Amsterdam Ave side of the block has long had a sizable bldg with retail at street level - looking down Tenth Ave I could barely pick out with my eye what were the landmarks when I lived down there, but as you looked north from 59th Street what you used to see was the projects, and yes, people were mugged and raped on that strip of Amsterdam, in that now-smaller parking lot, etc.

I have been watching developments in the western edge of Queens since 1979 - that is the first time I heard people predicting that the entire Qns waterfront would be a huge super-luxury development - for all we know, Hunter's Point may get a grocery store as a tenant in one of the new buildings, and cafes and restaurants and bars may follow, but 29 years after I heard that prediction, it is STILL a future possibility - the problem is that if you wait for LIC to become an established neighborhood with all the amenities it will be already very expensive by that point.

About housing projects and Manhattanville and other Uptown areas, though, I have seen apartment buildings in Harlem that were projects and are now market rate rentals, though not as high-rent as the new luxury buildings. Examples are on First Avenue north of 96th and Lexington Avenue further up. I think most of Harlem is a pretty safe bet long-term, even with a several-year downturn.

lowery, I don't know why people keep saying the same things over and over again. I'll repeat, yes there was a lot of talk for a long time about developing LIC and nothing happened, until 2004 when the city passed the re-zoning for the area. Now, when the re-zoning passed, the developers can't just say POOF! and the buildings appear. Properties need to be purchased, land cleared, and buildings built. If you just look at the buildings on the waterfront now, you see that happening. It is also happening along Jackson Avenue, Vernon, 11th Street, near the Citi Building, etc. Every month you see a new cafe, store, shope opening up. There are a good number of very good restaurants and cafes in the area now. People who say "they've been talking about LIC being developed for years and we're still waiting" are just wrong, the development is happening now and it is happening fast.

"Properties need to be purchased"

No shit! And lending standards have changed, jobs are being lost, etc. But LIC is still a fringe neighborhood.

"Every month you see a new cafe, store, shope opening up."

Really? Rents are sky high for retailer that they face the same dilema as condo buyers. It would be much better to set up shop in an extablished neighborhood since the traffic is already there than to wait on the promise that the traffic will come. From what I've seen and heard, residents do not spend money at the shops on Vernon. It's Whole Foods by train back home to LIC.

newaccount, I'll try to be patient and dumb things down so you can understand. The properties being purchased for the re-zoning referred to properties purchased by the developers to build the buildings. Try to keep up please.

You have "seen and heard" that residents do not spend money at places on Vernon. That is so dumb I think I will just leave it as is.

"You have "seen and heard" that residents do not spend money at places on Vernon. That is so dumb I think I will just leave it as is."

And how to you collect your "information", LICC? Taste and smell?

I guess all these businesses are staying open because no one is spending money in them. You must have learned that in business school . . .

kylewest--

my bad, when you said "an unproven area of a borough that has been in transition" that to me said LIC is the unproven area and Queens the borough is in transition, I guess I read too literally.

LICComment--

since you seem to know the most about LIC new developments I have this burning question that I hope you can answer. all of these new developments seem to be built on top of each other and it seems like one is built and units are sold while that building still has amazing views of the city and then a few months later another building springs up like a street in front of it totally blocking the Manhattan views of the building right behind it, what are the rules for that? can people get their money back? are views (im guessing the main reason people buy balcony apartments facing Manhattan to begin with) a dealbreaker? i mean at this point people should know that there is a possibility of that happening but the first one or two buildings (I specifically mean the ones you directly face when the train stops at Queensboro Plaza) that went up, man their views are all jacked up now and I'm sure they didn't pay what they paid to be looking at another building. is that a big issue in LIC development now?

Hey douche, do I have to put you down again? There are business owners on queenswest.com that complain about the new residents. They come out of the train and walk right past their stores. I have visited and friends who rent at Avalon have told me they don't often patronize the local businesses. It's more like aome businesses are struggling and some may be making a little bit of money, but none are making a killing opening up shop in LIC. The wine shops are a good example.

Didn't MetLife close down its LIC office and move everyone back to Manhattan because the neighborhood sucked?

The buildings on the water actually are not on top of each other. They planned them to maintain view corridors as you move away from the water. With any new development, you should go look at the site and the area. You usually can see which ones are next to sites that are getting developed or may be getting developed. Some buildings, like Powerhouse, will have views in the short-term but you know exactly where the buildings next to it will be going up. Buildings with absolutely secure views will generally get higher prices than buildings with views that may be blocked in the future.

So newaccount gets his information from a blog. Great source, thanks for assuming that is true and covers all businesses in the area. Tell the owners of all the restaurants, cafes, spas, coffee houses, etc., that have been getting more and more crowds the last two years that they are not making any money. I guess that's why more businesses are opening up every month, because no one goes to the existing businesses. You must be an MBA with your business savvy . . .

LICC - I hope you're right. I know someone who has lived in City Lights since it opened, and last I heard he was still driving to Sunnyside or Astoria for his grocery shopping. I think the residents have to come first, and then the amenities, and by the time everything is set up it will be way too expensive. I was never impressed with what Williamsburg had to offer, and Williamsburg already had a community before the condos came. The time for dramatic equity appreciation in LIC was before now. From here on, I think Manhattan is a safer investment for those who can afford it.

Why is LICComment the only one defending LIC? No matter what fact locals bring up, you keep having to answer them point by point with unwitty remarks. Yes, I do have an MBA. I guess you know me now. I have been in the neighborhood many times and I am one of the few who eat at the local restaurants. There just seems to be many people who don't. I don't even see one business that can say they are happy there. When I talk to them they always say, "could be better". I have nothing against LIC developing into a community, but what I see is far from what you try to promote on this message board. Far from it. I know you're trying to protect your investment here because you're close to forclosure. The Wall St jobs have effected you. I know you're not a banker, but one of the 3 jobs that Wall St supports indirectly (rat race job). Good luck trying :) sucker...

You usually have to finish high school and college before you can get an MBA. Keep trying newaccount, and keep doing your business research on blogs. In the meantime, I'll keep enjoying seeing all the people moving into LIC.

Keep trying to sell LIC. So how much did you strech yourself buying in LIC?

Watch people move in...

then move out when they realized LIC sucks!

Are you that retard that tried to promote Arris on Curbed?

He got pwned just like what's happenning to you here on StreetEasy.

LICComment is the only one defending LIC becase that is what he does. It doesn't mean that there are not people out there...they just have better stuff to do witht their time. By the way, it's amazing how many people that think LIC "sucks" take the time to post about it. I would imagine that most people wouldn't bother to give it the time of day if it were so crappy.

There are plany of decent blogs and message boards out there with good information so most people don't need to waste their time reading a thread called LIC sucks...

Anyhow, enjoy speaking to yourselves. While LICComment may be the only one defnding LIC, it's also the same morons telling themsleves how much it "sucks"

Have a nice life all of you. Maybe we will cross paths on a thread where people actually have value to add. And thanks for killing the credibility of Street Easy - this used to be an informative board.

p.s. - newaccount, quoting curbed just goes to show the type of people that have migrated to this site.

> Why is LICComment the only one defending LIC? No matter what fact locals bring up,
> you keep having to answer them point by point with unwitty remarks.

Bingo.

"So newaccount gets his information from a blog. Great source, thanks for assuming that is true and covers all businesses in the area. Tell the owners of all the restaurants, cafes, spas, coffee houses, etc., that have been getting more and more crowds the last two years that they are not making any money. I guess that's why more businesses are opening up every month, because no one goes to the existing businesses. You must be an MBA with your business savvy . . ."

Wow, another 100 posts from LIC, another 0 data points....

No, business saavy is demonstrated by buying in LIC at the top. So LICComment purchased his first apt with all his familiy's money to scrape up 10% down and I'm waiting for things to dome crashing in to pick up the bargains. Your equity will be $0 soon and keep plunging.

Eddie,
Try that taxi from the east village.... you're looking at pretty much double
Try taxi from the east village to that potential tiny studio in the east east 90s. You would look at the same bill.

In the tech group? Find me an ibanking analyst living in Queens, and I'll show you one who is getting laughed at.
Does tech group start to work at 5AM, just to be on time for overseas market opening? Go laugh at Carl Icahn, he was born and raised in Far Rockaway, Queens.

So, somebody making $35 grand a year lives in Queens. What's your point? They're going to help buy up all the overpriced condo inventory in LIC?
I am not making points, I am observing trends. A person was working on Wall Street, making good money and was able to afford pricy rental apartment. Now after she lost her job, she moved into cheaper housing in an established community in Queens.
Where do you think all those analysts go? Would all of them return back to Wall Street if economy improves? BTW, where in my coments did you see anything about buying all the inventory?

elena
(broker)

Sure new account . . . keep making things up in your fantasy world if it makes you feel better. LIC is "at the top" because you say it is? Great delusion.
I bought my first place in 1998. Did you pay your rent for this month yet?

LICComment- I have to tell you it seem that you are taking a lot of heat in recent weeks. It must be getting to you. Your responses have been kind of elementary. I expect more from you, if you expect to defend that waste land across the river. Please LICComment get your head back in the game and fight like a man.

dco lives in Sunnyside, so he calls his own home a "waste land." As for the other comments, if they say something intelligent I may respond, but I think leaving clueless, unintelligent comments like those by new account just stand as is for all to see is sufficient.
I think I see the pattern of the bears who post on this board - they are either bitter renters or others who are angry that they can't afford to buy a nice place where they want to live, or people who couldn't make it working on Wall Street so they lash out at the Wall Street crowd that is doing well and hope for a real estate crash.

LICComment- I don't live in Sunnyside, however I don't think anything is wrong with Sunnyside. Actually I think it's, 100% a better buy then LIC.

Sunnyside is in no way part of that waste land, you affectionately call LIC.

I'm also mot a renter, I actually bought years ago when it actually made sense. Not at 20X rent.

I didn't read every comment verbatim but it looks like the only one proud to be on the sinking ship is LICC. Have fun on the way down!

TheFed- Problem being, on a sinking ship, in LIC is, if you dive into the water, when they pull you out you'll have and extra eye and ear from all the toxins. HAHAHAHAHA.

How much is rent for a studio in LIC new construction?

newaccount- Waterfront area is about $1800

Hmmmm... $500,000 / ($1,800 x 12) = 23x for 5SL studio. Sign me up!

I just crunched the numbers for a solid area at Chelsea Stratus

1 BR rent- say $3,800/mo lowball pricing. Rentals are asking $4,500

$1,000,000 / ($3,800 x 12) = 22x

The Stratus will likely rent for over $4k/mo with immediate occupancy whereas an LIC apt will remain vacant for quite some time.

Example on the higher end. They range between $1800-2100

http://www.rockrosenyc.com/residential/search?id=5148

That would be comparing obstructed and non-obstructed views. You seem to be on the mark with $1,800 in 5SL.

A very wise man once said if you can afford LIC, you can afford Manhattan. It would be insane to buy in LIC when it's less risky in Manhattan. Wouldn't you agree, LICComment?

I agree about the wise man part. Otherwise, I don't agree. First, Manhattan is not significantly less risky. The prices in LIC will correlate to Manhattan, and the spread between the two will lessen and LIC becomes more and more residential. Second, risk isn't the sole reason people buy. I would never live in a studio, but why limit the discussion to just studios? How much would a studio in a comparable building in Manhattan cost? $550k-$700k? How much would a 1-bedroom in a comparable building cost? $750k-$1mil? You are looking at 30 % less than Manhattan. You get a lot more space for your money in LIC, an easier commute to midtown than most places in Manhattan, a great area with a lot of upside and lots of young professional and creative people moving in, a great waterfront with great views, it's much easier to keep a car, etc. The apartment below mine, same layout, just sold for more than I paid. You guys keep hating while the new residents of LIC keep enjoying our great area . . .