Standard sq.ft deviation?

The first problem is there is no definition for how square footage should be measured. For me, I go include everything that's not an exterior wall. On average I find things 5-10% exaggerated. The only 2BRs I've seen in the 7xx range have been JR4 conversions. Do you have an example?

What I've done, I guess amateurishly, is simply to add the areas of all the rooms indicated on the floor plans, plus attribute an area to any baths, kitchens or corridors whose dimensions are not indicated on the floor plans (there's usually a neighboring room that gives you either length or width, so it's just a matter of taking a guess on the other variable based on how it looks vis-a-vis the other rooms). I don't see how my tactic could fail grossly. I mean, the only thing that could yield a larger area (maybe) would be, in apartments that are either squarish or rectangular, to figure out the total length and width of the whole. Anyway, if we're looking at the same floor plans, I don't really see how interior walls could account for the missing 15%. BTW, I don't know what a JR4 is, but all the cheap 2br/1bt I've seen are places were the 2nd br was originally intended as a dining area, I think.

I don't know how to link, but I can list you 2 apts.:
233 E 70th # 2S is listed as 1000 sq.ft but I estimate 760
235 E 87th # 10D is listed as 1100 sqft but I estimate 780

I'd agree on 2S but I'd say 10D is between 850 and 950 (depending on whether it is 26' or 28' long, I can't make it out). I'd say both of these are converted JR4s (just like you say, the dining room area is converted to a 2nd BR.

Here's a 1000s.f. JR4 that I'd say is pretty close to correct
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/245792-coop-500-east-83rd-street-yorkville-new-york

Just think about it, "1000 Sq ft" unit listed at $1000 sq ft. would be $1M. Just about every unit listed is exaggerated. If you paid $1M for the same unit that is actually 750 sq ft. you would of over paid by $250,000. Even a 10% difference is $100,000.

Lets see how this plays out in this market. It will be interesting to see how someone is going to try and peddle their newly purchased unit with it actually being 10-25% smaller then when they purchased it 2 years ago. Buyers are few and far between and a whole lot wise to the game.

I ask for yet another time, why isn't this extreme "deviation" considered outright fraud?

When buildings are either built as condos or converted to that status at some point in their history, the developer/sponsor is obligated to register the exact square footage of each apartment with the state.

No such rule exists with co-ops. Every time you see a square footage count on a co-op apartment, it is a function of a broker's estimation - or, more, likely, exaggeration. There is no oversight on this; brokers can claim an apartment is whatever the hell size they want.

I guess my question is WHY isn't there any oversight? We are talking about half-million, million and multi-million dollar investments and most apartments appear to have highly distorted square foot "estimates".

These aren't "estimates" but plain and open lies.

Imagine if "brokers" and sellers in other industries played this game of hoping that the buyer either wouldn't notice or just wouldn't care after they've done their homework?

Just imagine:

If you went to the supermarket bought what you added up to be $50 of goods and then have it turn out to be $65 at the check out because of a bad price “estimates"? (And evidently this actually happens at some stores.)

If you went to buy a top 1982 Bordeaux only to find that, when you opened it, it actually contained wine from 1997?

If some financial broker promises you 20% returns from a product that can only provide a maximum of 10% returns – and you can only figure that out by reading the fine print.

It appears that the NYC real estate market essentially is a game of lies and deception that would be considered blatant fraud in other fields – even though we are probably talking about the largest financial transactions most people make in their lives.

It is absolutely ridiculous.

The fact is that the sale and purchase of real estate IS a highly regulated and meticulously measured business. Ever take a look at the fine print on a building or land or even condo deed? Surveyors have to do such exacting calculations that they figure out right down to the minute (whatever that is) exactly where the delineating lines of a particular piece of real estate starts and ends. It is HIGHLY exacting.

I'm sure a big part of the reason that brokers can make whatever claims they want about the size of an apartment is the fact that when you buy a co-op, you're not actually buying the apartment. You're buying shares in a corporation, the same way you do when you buy shares in a corporation that's traded in the stock market. Only this particular corporation is private and has only one asset: a particular building that it owns.

That's right. When you buy a co-op, technically speaking, you're not buying an apartment. The apartment can't be split from the rest of the building, as far as ownership is concerned. The entire building, collectively, is owned by a corporation. The rules of that corporation dictate that tour being a shareholder in that corporation entitles you to RENT a particular apartment (the technical name for maintenance fees is 'RENT'). But on a technical level, you are really just that - a renter, renting an apartment in a building owned by a private corporation - which you happen to be a shareholder of.

Since the seller, through his broker, is not really selling the apartment, but the shares in the corporation, I guess there's no obligation to be absolute and upfront about the dimensions of an apartment that is technically a by-product of your purchasing shares in the corporation. The same cannot be said about condo apartments - in a condo, you own the unit, and as such, you have the right to expect much more specific information, including a technical surveyor's information.

One of the apartments I bid on was supposed to be over 1700 square feet. For the life of me, being generous, I couldn't come up with more than 1300 square feet when I measured the floor plan. But my broker told me that co-ops include common areas also in their square footage. So there was a 35% square foot premium tacked on in the case of this particular apartment at over 1100 per square foot. Those were some expensive hallways because the building had no amenities!

NYRENewbie, I've heard that "common areas included" claim with regard to condos (though they should specify gross as opposed to net square footage), but never to a co-op. I think your broker was full of shit, which is pretty typical.

memito, I agree. I think many brokers will be leaving the field in the near future with transactions as low as they are. With any luck, the sleazier ones will be the first to go. Maybe buyers need to be a little less polite at open houses and clearly point out to brokers how inaccurate their calculations are.

I titled this thread "standard" deviation because I'm under the impression that it isn't carried out by the sleazier brokers, but by roughly every one of them. And both in co-ops and condos. That's why I wanted the feedback. I seriously bet that nobody in this forum will be able to find ANYTHING listed for less than 110% of its actual square footage, and that things listed between 110 and 115 will be few and far between. For what I've seen, most listings estimate the square footage between 120 and 135% of the reality. I know: maybe reality doesn't apply, this is Manhattan and it can only go up (and shrink, at the same time!) BTW, SWK, please show me any condos that are true to their square footage and I'll eat my hat.

Look at this one. No way it's 675 sf. Let alone this price for a walkup the size of a studio.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/320222-coop-41-jane-street-west-village-new-york

That's hysterical. It's overstated by around 60%, putting the price at around $1800/sf. I love the way CH puts "aprx" next to all their sf figures, as if that makes wild exaggeration OK.

They are such blatant liars. I can't stand them. Wish we could wash CH brokers down the drain and flush