The Beresford apt 3E..could be a bellweather for CPW

I think of south-facing as a different market from east-facing, so 4A might not affect the "B" line directly. Looks nice, though.

good point, I actually thought that line was on the corner. thanks.

Re 225 CPW--the 11th floor apt seems like a much better deal as it looks nicely renovated (shows price Increae, but that's clearly a typo.)

I agree with West81 (as usual)
I know many folks in CPW buildings nearby. Sixth floor views are pleasant, not magnificent. To the east, trees, and the very tippy tops of buildings, not at all panoramic. To the south, obviously the skyline, nice, but certainly not maginificent.
Magnificent starts on the 9th or 10th floors.
Who cares about this? For people who really value views and are willing to pay for them, sixth floor views dont quite cut it (unless of course you're talking the Dakota, where the sixth floor is the equivalent of the 9th floor elsewhere).
In this market, one can afford to be just that picky

no offense, but i get the feeling that you people have never been in an apartment on central park west. views of the midtown skyline over the park are "certainly not magnificent" bfgross? what do you consider a magnificent view? only above the 9th floor are the views great? is this a joke? many of the best buildings on 5th avenue barely go much higher than the 9th floor and I have seen some absolutely spectacular views from as low as the 4th floor and even the 3rd floor depending on topography.

many people prefer a view just above the treetops to a view looking down on the trees from high above--i can go either way. i'll go take a look at this ridge west81st is talking about, and maybe this is a special case, but in general the 6th floor on the park is a great floor.

the other point is that, yes, if you have $10 million lying around you can buy a great central park west apartment on your ideal floor in your ideal building. but if you have $4 million you are not going to get the 6th floor in the Dakota or a penthouse in the Beresford. 3,000 square feet on a good floor in a great location with a ridiculous park frontage and the southeast corner is not going to happen anywhere near this price point in the top tier buildings. if someone wants great park frontage, 3000 square feet, the southeast corner, and a great location, do you have any other suggestions at this price point?

dmf,
the 11th floor apartment may or may not be a better deal, but you realize that it is much smaller? they are not the same footprint.

Don't care who was making or not making the point at the views. The reality is this, it definately matters between the 4th floor and 7th floor which building you are in. The ground does have varying heights at parks edge. Some will offer views, some won't. I have been in most of these buildings, and a few I am in almost weekly (kids friends). I tend to agree with the lower floor aspect. Personally I like 6-11 floor, don't want to be in the clouds.

happy:
I was not commenting on whether or not the apartment at the Alden is a great deal.
I was commenting on the esthetics of the views from certain floors on CPW, nothing more.
I have seen views from the Dakota, from the Trump International, the Beresford, the Kenilworth, number 91, number 239, and number 241 in my two decades in the city. I live here. I know the differences in views. They matter to the people who pay for them. Thats what Im saying. In my opinion the views in the low mid 80s on CPW from the sixth floor are not spectacular. There is a major difference between the sixth and ninth or tenth, thats all Im saying. Also, almost all of the top buildings on both Fifth and CPW go well past the ninth floor, most go fifteen, with few exceptions.

Can't we all just get along?

We're splitting hairs. The only problem with words like "magnificent" is that they don't leave much headroom. If the view from the sixth floor of the Alden is magnificent (and compared to my view, it certainly is) then what do we call the view from the tower apartments at the Eldorado? Breathtaking? Heart-stopping? Jaw-dropping? Pretty soon, we'll all be writing copy for the Corcoran website.

Views aside, I think Patient09 hit a key concern: overspending for the building. A $4-5MM apartment in a building with $250K studios has some inherent vulnerability. I have a lot in common with the folks in the $250K studios, but I might not want to belong to a club that would have somebody like me as a member - at least not if the admission fee were $5MM.

agreed: the problem with the apartment is concerns over the building. the question is this: at what price is it worth it to take the risk on the building in order to have what looks to me like 20 windows facing east and south over central park and midtown. i'm as bearish as anyone, but if i were looking for a family apartment in this range on the upper west side i'd think very seriously about this place.

copy for dan douglas i think u meant to say . . . the king of hyperbole as far as I can tell

HR: after careful consideration of the building and finding some comfort in its finances. After assesing reno costs to get it to "my standards" I would be happy at $1200 per sqft

yeah Dan Douglas is one ridiculous hyper of apartments, though admittedly he gets some of the best......

patient,
i believe 1200 psf would be $3.5. i think you would have a shot at getting that right now.

sorry, I meant to say all-in, after renovation

211 CPW #3E
a few more chops like this and they could be on there way to a sale
STREETEASY HISTORY
12/25/2008
Listed in StreetEasy by Corcoran at $7,950,000
02/21/2009
Price decreased to $6,950,000

Patient09: It's a start.

Happyrenter/Bfgross: I was on the ninth floor of 225 CPW today. Treetops. Honest. The eleventh floor would clear everything.

Here's my thinking on 3E in the Beresford:

--16E sold for $8.4M in 9/07.
--Market is down 25% since then, so 16E would go for $6.3M today.
--Subtracting $1.5M for difference in views between 3rd/16th floors brings 3E to $4.8M
--But 3E is in slightly better condition than 16E, so let's ballpark 3E's current value at $5M.

Comments?

YJBO: go back to 8weeks ago on same thread, we debated it pretty good. I put up a $4.3 number.

262 CPW, Apt. 13F is already in contract. That was fast. Wonder how that will affect the price of 6F which is also on.

Not positive, but I think this apt was listed around $1,475 per ft. Closing is probably a bit lower. This would be lowest print for a larger apt on CPW with a view (ok, sideview) of the park, on a higher floor.

The lowest print?

in this wave down

Oh, stewardess... I speak Street.

P09: B09 may need a little help with the jargon.

You mean you think this is the lowest price point for that apartment?

B09: In my opinion, In this part of the Real Estate cycle, since it started turning down. Don't know when, maybe peak was mid 2007, but prices started heading down in 2008. So, since prices have started heading down, I think this is the lowest price per sq ft for this type of apt on CPW between 63rd and 90th. Does that help?

Thanks, just hadn't heard the term "print" before. So I would assume that 6F will have to lower its price as well.

west 81st--that scene with Barbara Billingsley (June Cleaver) is one of the all-time great movie comic moments--love your humor--although you have to be careful--it tends to betray age . . . Someone younger (<35) may be familiar with it, but probably wouldn't find it as funny

sorry . . meant to say "Someone younger (<35) may know it, but probably wouldn't find it as funny . . ."

my bad

thanks, thats all I got, typing is hard enough to putting together a sentence and all. When I get home, wife says, you want a drink? when I reply,...done! she gets annoyed too.

ok, having a really bad day . .

"Someone younger (less than 35) might know the scene but probably wouldn't find it nearly as funny"

I don't think SE likes the "less than" symbol

my double bad

Eldorado #25G just took a 5% haircut. That puts it below the Jan. 2008 comp two floors up. Price still needs to fall another 20% to hit the level a very cool Hollywood icon paid for #26G in 2004.

i saw that as well. it's not exactly cheap yet.

Apartment: $6,950,000
Monthly Maintenance: $5,126
Borrowing a copy of Splash or Apollo 13 any time you feel like it: Priceless.

Could mid-floor, north-facing San Remo sixes be down 36%?

#6F is in contract at Corcoran, with a final ask of $4.995MM:
http://www.corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&listingid=1419582

This new "F" line Elliman listing is asking $3.195MM:
http://www.prudentialelliman.com/Listings.aspx?ListingID=1094074

The new entry should be a slightly higher floor, because the maintenance is $3525 vs. $3389 for #6F, though it's possible the Corcoran listing doesn't reflect a 2009 increase.

#6F has been renovated; I'm not sure how much value that adds in this sector. The Elliman listing appears to be quite well-preserved, which a purist buyer might actually prefer in a building that inspires cultish adoration.

west81st,

a friend of mine lives in the F line at the san remo, those are really fantastic apartments. short of a park view, you really won't find a better classic six out there. 16x28 living room, wow. personally, i prefer the look of the elliman listing; the corcoran unit looks sort of airbrushed by the renovation. assuming the bathrooms are in good shape, $3 million for a huge six in the san remo is something.

Thanks, HR. The historic norm at the San Remo is a VERY short sales cycle, so this one will be worth watching. It's possible that #6F was just insanely overpriced, and that it's in contract for $3-3.5MM.

Man I hate mistakes in ones professional life. How can a building between 74-75 have rooms with exposure on 76th. Seems the building hasn't changed that much over the years.

Oops. "76th" looks like an innocent error by the floorplan guy. "77th" would be actionable.

dmf13: Your 11th-floor apartment at the Alden just got dinged again, by $215K:
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/347702-coop-225-central-park-west-upper-west-side-new-york
The price tag still seems hefty, at $4.15MM. Looks like another case where the owners have hired a very good broker and need to let her do her job.

I have sold in and around the Beresford.
The square footage is clearly much higher than mr. patient's initial guess.
The light is far from limited. East light facing a wide street, with nothing but trees to block the sun...how do you get limited light?

re: 6F in the Beresford - when it closes we will see it priced at +/-10% off the last asking price. Which will look like the buyer overpaid, but there were extenuating circumstances which made it a good deal for them. And the seller was pleased. As for the new F line apartment I have no information about it but I would say that if anyone here is serious about it at close to the listing price they ought to make an offer quickly as when 6F price is known I would say it might give the other seller some more confidence about pricing. My .02 only of course - FWIW.

apologies for the above post - should have said "re: 6F in the San Remo" - then all other is correct, or at least I believe it to be so. Liquid.

West 81st: Thanks. I agree it's too high. Any prediction?

Beresford #3G just dropped another million, to $9.5MM: http://www.bhsusa.com/detail.aspx?id=961628. The cuts are running a little behind Patient09's timeline. Pretty close, though.

dmf13: Sorry I didn't see your question about 225 CPW earlier. My SWAG: it drops another 25%.

LP: "And the seller was pleased" sounds like something out of Genesis. Were the "extenuating circumstances" that the seller is God?

Anyway, thanks for sharing what you could.

Beresford 3G just made it to step 2 as predicted about 8 weeks ago on this thread.

This always cracks me up.."THIS IS NOW PRICED TO SELL!" Why didn't they price it to sell when they first listed it?

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/372887-coop-211-central-park-west-upper-west-side-new-york

01/06/2009
Listed in StreetEasy by Brown Harris Stevens at $11,500,000.
01/23/2009
Price decreased by 9% to $10,500,000.
03/25/2009
Price decreased by 10% to $9,500,000.

This was the prediction from 8 weeks ago.

#3G is not even on planet earth:
This is how 3G will play, assuming owner wants to sell it, and is not just on a fishing expedition:

StreetEasy History

01/06/2009
Listed in StreetEasy by Brown Harris Stevens at $11,500,000
01/23/2009 price reduced to $10,500,000
2/12/2009 price reduced to $9,200,000
4/04/2009 price reduced to $8,200,000
5/10/2009 price reduced to $7,500,000
7/06/2009 listing removed by Brown Harris Stevens
7/06/2009 Listed in StreetEasy by Elliman and Anne Cutbill Lenane at $6,800,000
9/18/2009 price reduced to $5,200,000
10/10/2009 listing entered in contract
1/15/2010 sale closed for $4,300,0

bump

Contract Signed on the El Dorado tower

http://www.brownharrisstevens.com/detail.aspx?id=981022

So now we'll wait to see what discount to the ask was paid... Kudos to those that took this horse over 3E at the Beresford.

151 CPW (Kenilworth) #2N closed for $3.5MM. That's the one with the "Enchanting, Fragonard-like Park tableaux" per Daniel Douglas... meaning rocks and trees visible from the second floor.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/closing/796422

Estate sale. Distinguished address.

$1,400 per f2, "Can you dig it?, I knew that you could"

So what do you think? Good price??

despite the warranted snarky comment about trees and rocks that is a big, beautiful apartment in an utterly perfect location.

I think it's a negative that the service elevator opens right into the kitchen in that building. And no full-time doorman, elevator man only. Not what you'd expect in a premier CPW building.

Yep, I think it is a decent price point on the curve downward. I still think these type of apts are trending lower, this is just a speed bump on the way lower. I think these type (great building, but challenged view, light, condition or floor will go as low $1,000-$1,150 per honest F2. The better, not trophy condition, but better in these type of buildings will settle in at $1,200-$1,500 per F2.

What about the El Dorado apt that just went into contract? WHat do you think that was per F2?

I'll weigh in on 151 CPW b/c it's a building I know very well. That apartment has no windows to the north because of the church next door, and so it's really pretty dim inside. The building is terrific, though as I have said somewhere before, not quite as high powered as it's neighbors. Danny D has another closing in that building coming soon and I suspect the ppsf will be quite a bit higher. Even w/ work this was going to be a not as terrific as the others apartment, albeit in an "utterly perfect location".

As for the part time staff, the reason is that with relatively few apartments in it, they took the decision to keep the maintenances lower, and to only have both a doorman/elevator man part time - but the guys that work there have been there a long time, and they're terrific.

"What about the El Dorado apt that just went into contract? WHat do you think that was per F2?"

My guess: Apt is approx 2,500 sq. ft. and sales price is a bit under $6M.....therefore price per sq. ft. is in the $2,250 range.

agree w/ p09... just a minor speed bump... wait for a rash of purchases at close to $1,000psf... then a further leg down....

Me, I don't even consider anything above $1,000psf.... it the new "$3000psf"... you can see it in the listings... they are all dancing around this "magic" number on prime bldgs..... :)

1400 psf is INSANE! The apartment is not nearly speacial enough
Hopefuly the owners are too rich to care, but this level apartment will be 1k or less psf in one years time

bfg: You be correct, but you know it is, prints occur the whole way down. I think a fair amount of this occurs. Wow! two years ago this apt would have cost X, it is offered at .9X. Lets bid .8X and see if we can get it, lets do it honey! I think that is the bulk of the sales over the last 6 months. Most on these boards obviously don't agree, but it is what it is. Nothing wrong with some prints occuring along the way to our targets.

Patient, you've used the term "prints" before, and I just don't understand what that means. Can you please define, out of curiosity! Thanks!

"Nothing wrong with some prints occuring along the way to our targets."

prints = sales

prints = trades. both a purchase and a sale. it's the language of trading stocks. i suspect patient is one of our resident hedge fund managers/traders or something like that.

old habits are hard to break, sorry, will try to type clearer in the future.

Three weeks ago, #8F at the San Remo looked like the new listing most likely to withstand the bear market. Now, not so much. Reduced $95K today, to $3.1MM.
http://www.prudentialelliman.com/Listings.aspx?ListingID=1094074
The cut itself is inconsequential. The news is that Elliman felt the need to cut this one at all.

Well, it finally happened. Final list of 6.950mm. Guess I was wrong on this one. Few months and we will all know about transaction price.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/371940-coop-211-central-park-west-upper-west-side-new-york

Shackburger time.

This is a fun thread.

Bets came in that it'd close around $4ish, but seems it closed around $6-$7. Any thoughts?

My thoughts: there are still people with money who will overpay to live in a trophy bld.

dwell: It ain't over 'til Beverly Sills sings.

W81,
I just let out a huge, loud guffawing laugh!! Thnx!!

My guess is that 3E sold for approx. $2k/sq.ft....a bit under $6M

dwell: I'm glad somebody got it. In cyberspace, inside neighborhood jokes usually fall flat.

Liquidpaper: San Remo #8F just go its second 3% chop, to $2.995MM:
http://www.prudentialelliman.com/Listings.aspx?ListingID=1094074
You could be right about this listing getting price support from the #6F closing, but that's a pretty astute broker cutting the price. FWIW, I saw #8F last week. It's in very nice original condition, and of course the building is wonderful. $3MM is still a lot of money for a nice six with a north-facing view of the Kenilworth.

New Beresford listing--15J broker says it's "exceptionally well-priced." Agree?

8J would probably agree.

;), W81.

What's this?? 10G sold for $915K in 2007? Mischbucha transfer?

Dmf13: Apologies - I posted #15J on the IYCDMMWC-UWS thread, then realized I should check here. Sure enough... owned.

West81st: No problem--it does seem like a good price--now what I need is a buyer for my house in the 'burbs--. Anyone interested in a beautful 5500+ sf house in Chappaqua, let me know.

dwell: You give immediate family a break on real estate. Mishpokhe? Them, you take for every possible shekel.

What you see as the sale of #10G at the San Remo was actually the sale of just the living room. We discussed it elsewhere. Not sure of the thread.

dwell: San Remo #10G thread is here...
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/9981-new-listing-san-remo-

...with additional discussion here, about halfway down the page.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/7616-if-you-can-demonstrate-market-movement-with-comps-upper-west-side-edition?page=8

Lostintransit's comment on the remnant of that apartment is a classic:
"10G is stunning in its complete awfulness."

After seeing #10G, I'd say it's much better in person than it looks on plan: efficient use of space, excellent finishes, lots of light and westward views to the Ansonia and the river beyond. What looks like a light court in the plan is actually the building's west wall, and there's nothing in front of it until Broadway. Even the flow isn't all that bad for a mutilated apartment. Aside from the "Yes, but think what is WAS" effect, the price and the maintenance, #10G is a wonderful 4.5-room apartment. Priced accordingly, it will make one of the San Remo's many admirers very happy.

Sorry... "what it WAS" not "what is WAS".

West81st, in the kitchen photo, looks as if there's a bank of original steel upper cabinets. Very nice, if so.

NWT: Good eye. 100% correct.

Just got back from the OH at 15J, definitely well priced (for the building). Overall the apt needed kitchen/bath updates. Lots of windows/light but no good views. Small outdoor space. I'd take it over 8J in a minute, no reason 8J is higher priced...quality of apts is the same.

The broker said they were doing a 3rd showing and expected an offer later today. I didn't love the Beresford (my first time there). A bit stuffy and dated. Elevator operators? No thanks, I can push the button myself.

Reminded me of the Park Royal on w 73rd.

Anybody else check out the OHs at Beresford today? Any additional color on the offerings?

New2me: My impression of the two Beresford "J" units mostly matches Kubiedoo's. Both are excellent sixes, and both need work. The datedness of #15J is much more striking - especially the wall coverings and the musty Murphy bed. At first glance, #8J appears to be a turnkey apartment. In the end, though, the new owner of #8J will probably wind up writing bigger checks to her contractor. It depends on the buyer's ultimate vision and needs. If you want a wood floor in the foyer, you'll either face total replacement in #15J - which has marble - or extensive restoration in #8J, where the original herringbone remains, but it's in only fair condition. #15J has modern baths that are in good shape - much better than the kitchen. #15J's dining room has been divided to create a small, windowless office. I think it could be restored quite easily.

Even if the prices were equal, I'd probably still go with #15J. The western view from the little terrace is great. The living room in #8J is a little wider and has an extra window, but it doesn't feel much bigger because it has a solid western wall, where #15J gets extra light through the terrace door.

BTW, #15J's kitchen has dual dishwashers and sinks. The cabinets are 70s laminate, and the good-quality appliances are near end-of-life, but the layout is right for separating meat and dairy, if that's your thing.

One point of disagreement with Kubiedoo: the building. Stuffy? Dated? Sure, that's half the fun, and I think the long gallery leading to the north elevator bank is beautiful. I agree that an operator seems a bit out of place in an automated elevator, but isn't that a legacy Union thing? Besides, if you're one of the many luminaries residing in the building, the elevator operator is something of a shared bodyguard.

W81, you'd be great selling the Beresford, San Remo, et al, if that's your wish. Probly hard to get those listings, but, you'd be fab. Thank goodness there's still people with $ out there!

Thank you Dwell. That particular compliment means more to me than you can imagine.

Wasn't that the building your grandma liked?

I might have said my Bubbe would kvell over 145. She'd probably be OK with 211.

Funny you ask, because those Beresford apartments - especially #15J - brought back the experience of clearing out a loved one's belongings from a cherished home. It sort of reminds you why we all want to buy, especially in buildings like these where owners tend to leave feet-first: to have a single, perfect repository for all those generations of memories.

It also reminds you that in the end, no matter how many memories you create, there will probably be a broker standing in the foyer, handing out show sheets.

Vell, kvell, away. I mean it. You'd be perfect for that market. So, how to get those listings? I did a brief stint as a salesperson, selling vanilla boxes in the 70s on 2nd Ave: that's where newbies cut their teeth. Hope you can leapfrog to CPW. That's your element.

You express so beautifully that intangible quality which attracts us to these properties: roots, permanence, stability, history. Somewhat akin to Mr. O'Hara's spiel to Scarlette in "Gone With the Wind" re: the value & significance of land.

And, yes, in the end, there's always a RE broker!!!!!! LOL!!

West81, Kubiedoo:Many thanks for the reviews. It will be of interest to see the trades print on these as far as CPW is concerned.

I dig the metal kitchens in 211 (and 15W81 has similar ones). And the hardware - ah, love the shapes of the door hinges.

Olive-knuckle, I think they're called.

Change of tactics at 41 CPW: Remember Corcoran's spiel about the "LAST CHANCE" to grab #4B at $5MM "BEFORE IT'S GONE!!!"? Well, the listing isn't gone, but the hype is, and the price is now $5.3MM. Not sure what the increase is supposed to achieve, aside from providing room for negotiation. Since #4B was a $3MM apartment in 2004, $5MM never seemed like a particular bargain.

San Remo #8F is in contract. Final ask was $2.995MM. I'll be surprised if it went much below that. Very nice apartment.

and went quickly too didn't it? well priced merchandise sells . . .