Renting in a condo/condop, are they nuts?!?

sooner or later maybe they will get it...fun to watch along the way.

Bummer. Have you found many condos like this? Could you say what bld this was?

I have only found one place that asked for life insurance (and car) information, however a number of other "no board approval" places have had equally (in my opinion) absurd requirements. I would rather not say which building it was (the insurance and car one), since the broker was actually fairly nice and I just feel sorry for him since he is representing that property.

Tell them you don't have life insurance "because the Big Guy is gonna take care of me," then begin winking repeatedly. Then add you drive a Segway "with a cupholder where I stash my OE8." Wink again - but just once.

Put an X in those areas of the application. Tell the owner upfront that him or her getting approval is his or her responsibility, and that your application must be approved within 2 weeks or it is terminated. The owner should have had a prior conversation with the board president, should have a good relationship with the board president, and should have sway as an owner - in absence of that, you don't want to be renting from that owner in that building. Very serious about setting the timeline on approval of the package - you can not make the pressure yours and you as a renter should consider both the board and the owner as ONE party.

Gleeclub, will that work? One broker I spoke to insisted that any arrangement I make with the owner is completely separate from the board. He went on to say the owner had no say whatsoever regarding the outrageous requirements of the board, and that I was responsible for providing all the information in full.

If you don't have a car, then who cares if they ask for your car information? It sounds like you're making a mountain out of a molehill. Most landlords will run a credit check on your SSN... if they have that, who cares about your insurance policy and your car?

aifamm its not the car thing that is the issue, but you raise a very good point. All the board/owner should be concerned about is if you can pay for the apartment, and that is a valid concern. So assuming you can prove that, none of the other information should be relevant. Yet somehow, they are still insisting on additional information. Another example I saw at another apartment was the board was asking for a detailed listing of all my stocks and investments. Again, if I can afford to pay the negotiated rent what difference does the rest of that make?

Let me also add that some of these boards are asking for up to $500 (non refundable) just to REVIEW your application. Keep in mind I am talking about renting here, not buying.

We just applied to rent a condo in 15 Broad. Ridiculous fees ($700 board application fee, plus another $800 or so non-refundable for credit and consumer reports, move-in, etc.) which were not disclosed to us prior to agreeing on the lease terms. We obviously complained and had the owner agree to paying half of the fees. Long list with questions on car, bank accounts, savings, life insurance, you name it. Not the most pleasant process but we decided to go with it anyway - what can you do?

find another place....there are many, many of them out there.

drdr, I am hoping to find out exactly what you can do about this. There was one condo I saw about a month ago that I really liked. It had been on the market for almost a year and the owner lives in LA. I guess he bought it as a second home or something, but then decided (for whatever reasons) that it was too much to deal with. The broker indicated that the owner was desperate to help offset his monthly loss on the place, and that he would be very open to negotiating a good price. I decide that I would offer the entire 12 months of rent upfront as a show of good faith (and to get the best price!). The broker then told me that doing so wouldnt help in any way with the board, and that all the crap discussed here was still required. Now as I understand it, that makes no sense. I realize that the board and owner need to make sure you can pay, so wouldnt an entire year upfront negate the need for anything else?? I assumed (and I still believe) that if someone is willing to pay for the entire years rent the building and owner have absolutely zero exposure and it should be a slam dunk.

Even without a full year upfront, assuming you can in some way prove you can pay why is there a need to provide any additional information? A credit check and income verification should be sufficient, yet that doesnt seem to be the case. It just doesnt add up to me. Am I correct in assuming I have the upper hand with an owner who is losing money? Can (as suggested by Gleeclub) I simply tell the owner (via the broker) to work it out with the board or he wont get the unit rented?

yes, yes and yes... there will always be another (and most likely better) deal.

bandit, I'm not on a board so i don't know the full reason, but I can only guess:
- Maybe some residents have a habit of leaving their cars parked out front and thus it is useful to be able to link troublesome cars to their owners.
- You state that it sounds reasonable that the landlord/building would want to make sure you can pay for your rent. How exactly have you shown that if you don't list your assets?
- If you did get into the apartment and then suddenly couldn't pay for the rent, it would take months (if not longer) for the eviction process to pan out.

If anything bandit, it shows that the building cares about who's in it... which in a way should be a good thing. I agree it's not pleasant and a pain, but it's also "responsible" to try to know who you're renting to.

aifmann, fair enough argument so lets look at the example I just gave. As I said in one case (about a month ago) I offered to pay the entire year upfront. What possible argument could the board have for continuing to ask for all the additional information in that case?

Bandit, I know through a good friend's personal experience that paying rent upfront does not equal a "good tenant". My friend subletted an extra room to a stripper who paid the first six months in cash upfront and then didn't pay a cent thereafter and it was quite a process to get her out. This is the prime reason. I think the theory is, you shouldn't be worried or care if you have nothing to hide. Good to be cautious though. Good luck.

Bandit, please keep in mind that if you rent from a big landlord, they will look for income 40x rent, or you need a guarantor. This might be the small condo owner's way to run a sanity check.

I don't know how the current market is affecting this requirement though.

aifamm, again you raise a good point. However I would still argue that if you can prove you can pay (either via an upfront payment or a credit check) as well as show you have a valid job (not in the sex trade!) what difference does the value of my life insurance policy make?

I don't have all the answers :) I'm just trying to play the other side a bit. I actually agree that some of the questions are a bit nosy, but then again let's say you move into the building and you found out your neighbor was something that could have easily been pre-screened. How would you feel?

Ok so lets say the board sees you can afford the place as well as that you have a good (well paying job). What will possibly be brought to light by reviewing my life insurance policy or vehicle type? I realize you are just trying to look at it from the other side, but still at some point it just stops being attractive to live at the place. I have lived in NYC my whole life. Both my parents live in co-ops here on the upper east side and they have told me about the board requirements they had to deal with. Personally, I would never put up with some of the stuff I hear (not from them) about what boards (co-op or condo) are asking for these days.

It will be interesting to see if the requirements loosen with the economic weakness. I have a feeling they won't though. There's too much NIMBY-ism.

My only point to you is: You'd rather live somewhere where they didn't ask anything about what you do or who you are? That sounds like it's a recipe for disaster. In my old building, there were still a few people with a few loose screws that made it past the board questions.

Personally, while I object to the nosiness, I don't really make a fuss because I wouldn't want to live in a place that didn't ask. Good luck.

aifamm I will play devils advocate here. How will any of those pointless requirements determine if someone (as you say) has a screw loose? Short of a board interview (which I havent found any condops/condos do) what specific piece of information will let them know that? Does the lack of having a car, or the specific value of my life insurance policy, indicate that I am a nut job? I would argue that it does not, so if they arent going to personally screen each prospective tenant I would say that ability to pay and job stability should be enough information.

So say none to both.

I've rented in a co-op that required a full board package and an interview. It was a pain for sure, but it wasn't an insurmountable burden. Maybe 10 hours to get all the info together. In the context of a place you might stay for a few years, if it's the right place, it doesn't seem like such a problem.

Adding to John's comment. I also handed a board package in to rent in a CO-OP. Sat for an interview etc. I paid about $2-300 less per month I would bet based on my ability to deal with this hassle. So I save 6K/year. I also have a nice quiet building.

The point of providing your financial picture is to give the board and the owner security in knowing they'll be paid. There's a big difference between having a month's rent paid up-front and having a million dollars in liquid assets -- with the latter, there's a deep pocket to go after if the person has to be evicted because she won't leave at the end of the year.

You should place a price on your privacy; heck, for an extra $100 a month, I'd be happy to give them my dental records. You may not be as cheap, but I'm sure it's worth it to you at some price.

There are buildings, and then there are buildings ...if you find the application process in certain buildings too intrusive, then those owners aren't the right neighbors for you, and you're not the right neighbor for them. Everyone should consider themselves lucky that they found all that out upfront.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

What? No colonoscopy?

Boards have these requirements to protect themselves and their tenants from subtenants they would rather not have. Given the difficulty involved in evicting tenants or subtenants under New York State's crazy housing laws it behooves co-ops, especially high end ones, to be very picky about those whom they let rent in their building.

In markets such as the current one, this ends up screwing over tenants who have to continue paying maintenance, while waiting for the board to approve their subtenant.

This is one of the risks that one should price into the decision about whether to buy a co-op apartment in the first place.

Missing from this discussion is how condos in all the rest of the country manage without all this "approval" nonsense -- and there are lots of condos, especially throughout the sunbelt.

I've never heard of the owners' associations in other states intervening in any way when it comes to a unit owner renting out his unit.

And peace prevails, common charges are paid, buildings don't burn, nobody goes deaf from "renter noise", etc.

What about the other side of the coin? Would you really want to live with people that are most likely going to CONTINUE to spy on you after asking for so much information?

Honestly, these people are privileged brats that most likely couldn't meet their own standards (sans their apartment equity). They also clearly have no clue what sort of financial storm is going to hit NYC and change the renting landscape; but it doesn't surprise me that they are so disconnected from reality given their "requirements" (which also often include several "unspoken" (and illegal) requirements in certain parts of the city, but let's ignore those...)

Most people have better things to do then SPY on you. They might be nosy, but SPY is going a bit far.

I would question anyone that wants to know so much pointless information about a person. If their main concern is that you can afford your place and that you have a job, why not just leave it at that. None of the other questions will indicate the overall "quality" of a person, just look at Bernie Madoff for example. I can assure you he would have passed any board in Manhattan, however as we all now see he is one of the most offensive and scummy people in the world. If you can verify that you can pay, and the owner likes you (you are living in their place after all), why should anything else be needed?

I suspect that they are trying to set a hurdle SO high, that few can meet it. Thus, they can effectively discrimminate against whoever they please. They are trying to give a subjective process an objective look and feel.

OR, they just may be crazy! I lived in a beautiful condo bldg in Miami once. One of the nicest around. But, they started to have problems w/ owners falling behind in their condo fees (hey, this is miami, pretty much ground zero of the real estaet bust). So what did these geniuses do? They put in place a policy that said, going forward, ALL leases must have a clause that requires the TENANT to pay the condo fees! This was like $4500/qtr. What RENTER is going to agree to pick up another $1,150 a month?? Just b/c the owner couldn't make his nut?? And not surprisingly, few units rented after that, which meant even MORE distressed units with cash-flow challenged owners. What a joke.

Admiral, I think you are echoing my concern. Fewer and fewer people are willing to put up with these requirements, while at the same time more and more apartments are sitting (many vacant) on the market. At some point (hopefully soon!) the board nazi's will get their heads out of their rear ends and realize what is going on. As I stated before, it will start to hurt these buildings financially if they keep it up. Unfortunately (fortunately for the rest of us though!) sometimes a good kick in the face by reality is what people need before they come around.

front_porch says: There are buildings, and then there are buildings ...if you find the application process in certain buildings too intrusive, then those owners aren't the right neighbors for you, and you're not the right neighbor for them. Everyone should consider themselves lucky that they found all that out upfront.

Front Porch, you may have gone to Harvard, but you are a bit naive. Frankly, I don't want to live in any building that would accept me as a tenant.

oh and on a more serious note, Condos have right of first refusal. If they refuse to allow the unit owner to rent to you, they've got to be the renters. That's expensive.

... not the case for co-ops

Admiral says: I lived in a beautiful condo bldg in Miami once. One of the nicest around. But, they started to have problems w/ owners falling behind in their condo fees (hey, this is miami, pretty much ground zero of the real estaet bust). So what did these geniuses do? They put in place a policy that said, going forward, ALL leases must have a clause that requires the TENANT to pay the condo fees! This was like $4500/qtr. What RENTER is going to agree to pick up another $1,150 a month?? Just b/c the owner couldn't make his nut?? And not surprisingly, few units rented after that, which meant even MORE distressed units with cash-flow challenged owners. What a joke.

All you need is a literate lawyer ... in the case that the owner is not paying the condo fees and is in default, the renter does not have to pay the owner the rent ... maintenance is 98% likely to be less than rent. In any case, there is a clause in many condo lease forms that says that the rent will increase by any increase in the amount of the maintenance - make sure to cross this out. Also, make sure to cross out the provision by which the owner can get rid of you if he's selling ... the lease should survive any sale of the unit. AND, don't be afraid, in a new development, to ask for a representation that the owner is current on his mortgage and has sufficient assets to pay the mortgage - the one thing you can't avoid is if the owner fails to pay the mortgage, you can get evicted. Turn it around on the owner and start asking for his financials, especially if you are taking more than a few $$thousand per month in rent.

"All you need is a literate lawyer ... in the case that the owner is not paying the condo fees and is in default, the renter does not have to pay the owner the rent"

I think you've missed my point - they are requiring prospective tenants to agree, in the lease, to assume responsibility for these payments! Hence, no tenants. What tenant would effectively indemnify an owner for what is clearly a cost of ownership?

"Turn it around on the owner and start asking for his financials". LOL. Not likley to happen - much easier to say "go look at a another rental".

Yeah I dont know if you can demand the owner show you his financials, however I think its a good idea to have some language put in the lease that protects you if the owner defaults or tries to sell.

UES Bandit,

ARe you a cry baby? WHy are you complaining so much? If you don't have a car, write "N/A." Simple as that. No need to start this stupid thread.

Alpine until you chimed in this was a civil conversation. I dont think anyone (including myself) cares specifically about the car question. Its more about the point of such dumb questions to begin with. Having a car doesnt make a person a "better" tenant, and thus shouldnt even be a line item on an application.

Well, you can be offended by the questionnaire or get it done. I have purchased two coops -- and have had to disclose all of my personal information. When I sold and it was time to rent -- I updated all of the finacial information and turned in a similar package. I passed that credit check and conrfirmation of information and moved in within a few weeks. Why are you so worried? You are a risk to the owner -- they deserve to know that you are not somebody who only has a months cash in the bank and have a bad history.

"You are a risk to the owner -- they deserve to know that you are not somebody who only has a months cash in the bank and have a bad history."

Manhattanfox, I 100% agree with that statement. Therefore I would think that showing a bank statement, and either a credit check and/or an upfront payment should suffice, do you not agree? My real issue with the process (as I mentioned before) is that my life insurance policy or make of my vehicle in no way contributes anything meaningful to the discussion.

I heartily congratulate you for dealing with the intrusive process twice! Both my parents (divorced) also went through the full wringer a few times each. My mother told me her co-op board even demanded to know the "full story" behind her divorce to my father, and even required they speak to the divorce attorney prior to approving her (even after her finacials were verified).

I guess I am just still shocked that boards (condo, or otherwise) still ask for all the information. As I said before, my stand on the issue would be that if you can afford the place (verifiable of course) then that should be the end of the story.

I have just gone through the nonsense of getting a condo board approval for a place I am renting. The information they asked for was comically stupid and I lied, just claiming to own one bank account and had no other assets, no car, no life insurance policy, no nothing. The bank account was big enough, they didn't need to know more. They asked for 4 personal references, prior residences, employment verification, including salary/bonus and all sorts of other nonsense. And here's the thing: They didn't verify anything! No calls to my references, no employment check, no nothing. I could have forged the bank statement and the salary verification, they wouldn't have known. They were worse than Madoff's auditor. Giving them more financial details would have served no purpose, they didn't need it to make a decision and they were too lazy to verify anyway. So why bother asking for the information?

I'm sure plenty of people on boards are going to explain how their board is different and they thoroughly check details. That's complete crap, verifying most of the information is very difficult, the best they're going to do is run a credit check.

Thats hilarious, I wonder how widespread that (not checking) really is?