I made short stops at five open houses on Sunday. Here are a few quick impressions: 225 Central Park West #520 $3,695,000 mt. $3068 Coop, 4 beds 3.5 baths http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/373048-coop-225-central-park-west-upper-west-side-new-york Last week, we discussed a combo apartment at 522 WEA that is large and well-apointed, but lacked any feeling of spaciousness or grandeur. I experienced... [more]
I made short stops at five open houses on Sunday. Here are a few quick impressions:
225 Central Park West #520
$3,695,000 mt. $3068
Coop, 4 beds 3.5 baths
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/373048-coop-225-central-park-west-upper-west-side-new-york
Last week, we discussed a combo apartment at 522 WEA that is large and well-apointed, but lacked any feeling of spaciousness or grandeur. I experienced the same letdown in this broker-owned rambler in the Alden, a building notorious for awkward combinations of tiny units. In this case, the owners of #520 added the adjacent estate one-bedroom in 2005 and converted it into a sumptuous master suite and well-appointed dining area. The merger was nicely executed, and the finishes throughout the apartment are good, with tasteful built-ins everywhere. The resulting layout however, is much more cozy than grand; for example, visitors are greeted with a view of... the kitchen. Not a big deal, but not my idea of a $3.7MM entrance either. Each of the four bedrooms is accessed in a different direction from the central common spaces. As a result, family members have more privacy from each other than they do from visitors. As for the touted "southern light & a side view of Central Park", all I saw was the north wall of the Beresford, which casts a deep shadow over 82nd Street.
In short, I think the owners did a really nice job of expanding their home to accommodate a growing family and suit their own tastes. But now that they're moving (to Connecticut, I think), they may have trouble competing with apartments that were designed for families from the start.
340 West 86th Street #8/9D
$1,295,000 CC $1038 RET $523
Condo, 3 beds 2 baths
http://www.prudentialelliman.com/Listings.aspx?ListingID=1073730
Traffic: Moderate but unimpressed.
This newly-listed duplex is a tribute to the skills of the Elliman photographer who disguised it as a bright and inviting family home. The reality is a pair of smallish 1BRs in a shabby building, connected by a treacherously steep, narrow spiral staircase. It doesn't help that laundry facilities are off one of the upper-level bedrooms, which makes it impractical to exile the kids upstairs and keep the lower-level bedroom for Mom and Dad. In any case, you wouldn't want kids under ten anywhere near that staircase.
If you must have a duplex 3BR condo in prime UWS, this is the entry level. Otherwise, there are a lot of perfectly nice classic sixes where your family will be safer and much more comfortable.
334 West 86th Street #5C
$1,250,000 mt. $1667 Coop, 2 beds 2 baths
Traffic: Moderate-heavy
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/375930-coop-334-west-86th-street-upper-west-side-new-york
Since I was passing by, I made a short return visit to #5C to check traffic. It continues to attract the stroller crowd with a value-leader price for a good-condition classic six with washer-dryer in an excellent location. On my way out, I overheard this exchange between a pram-pushing young couple:
She: It seems really small.
He: Well, that's priced in.
She: And it's so dark.
He: That's priced in too.
I wanted to shake him. Settling is so 2007.
20 West 77th Street #7B
$1,150,000 mt. $1895 (financials on listing are outdated)
Coop, 2 beds 1.5 baths
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/347717-coop-20-west-77th-street-upper-west-side-new-york
and
20 West 77th Street #6B
$1,075,000 mt. $1844
Coop, 2 beds 1.5 baths
http://www.prudentialelliman.com/Listings.aspx?ListingID=1073868
Traffic: Moderate
20 West 77th is a small coop with just two layouts: The elegant, classic seven "A" line facing the Museum, and the afterthought "B" line, a small 2BR 1.5BA format that the 15 CPW crowd would regard as nice servants' quarters for the front-facing apartments. The second bedroom of the "B" line is barely a bedroom at all - I think it works better as a study, or opened up as a walk-through dining room. And the half-bath is basically useless, since it's in the extreme rear of the apartment, behind the kitchen. Guests are likely to use the full bath, which is more accessible.
#7D debuted in September at $1.595MM, dropped $100K in October and has been cut twice in January - first to $1.28MM and then to $1.15MM. The recent cuts appear to be in response to the arrival of #6B on the market at $1.075MM. #7B enjoys only one advantage: an extra floor of clearance above the mechanicals of the buildings to the rear. It matters, but not hugely; both apartments have a nice view of the San Remo, and not much else. #6B is in mint condition and makes superior use of space. #7B uses a shoji screen to separate the living an dining rooms - the height of innovative design when the Nikkei was at 30,000.
#6B is an example of the new pricing strategy Douglas Heddings has touted on his blog: asking what he claims is 25% below mid-2008 valuations. Beyond the current pricing edge, #6B also likely has the advantage of negotiability, for reasons a little googling will make clear to anyone who's interested. For the next open house, though, I would urge the owners to throw out their leftover Chinese take-out. They can certainly afford to.
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Response by West81st
about 17 years ago
Posts: 5564
Member since: Jan 2008
Pardon my spelling: e.g. "apointed" = "appointed".
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Response by NYRENewbie
about 17 years ago
Posts: 591
Member since: Mar 2008
West 81st I love your commentary. Always a pleasure to read your open house reports. Your powers of observation and communication skills are a Streeteasy treasure. Thanks.
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Response by patient09
about 17 years ago
Posts: 1571
Member since: Nov 2008
81: nice piece of work.
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Response by khd
about 17 years ago
Posts: 215
Member since: Feb 2008
Looked at 141 e. 3rd, 9D last weekend and returned this weekend for another look with our broker. Ask is 999K, marked down from 1.2M. Lots of lookers on Sunday, but not the WE before. Nice layout, kitchen and bath, strange white floors. Nice views. It is about 200K too expensive for us but my broker reckons someone will bite at 900K, despite the declining market. It is already vacated and the owner purchased for 770K in 2004.
1. did anyone mention the possibility of duplexing? since it isn't mentioned i assume it isn't possible, but i'm not sure.
2. would you be concerned buying into such a small building? i love the feel of a small coop, but it concerns me that any major problems with the building will have to shouldered by a small number of units, and in this case a small number of relatively small units.
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Response by RE_Economist
about 17 years ago
Posts: 27
Member since: Jul 2008
Thanks West81st for your invaluable contribution.
Is it possible you visit many of these to see if Annie can get it done?
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Response by West81st
about 17 years ago
Posts: 5564
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HR -
1. Nobody talked about duplexing while I was there. When I arrived, Joanna Pashby was busy trying to justify the price difference between #7B and #6B (which she had partly eradicated by hand-writing the newly-reduced ask on her show sheets). The Elliman associate who covered the #6B open house didn't seem to know much, so I didn't bother asking her. I don't think the layout lends itself very well to duplexing, assuming it's even feasible. The wet areas are all in the back of the apartment, so you would have to squeeze a staircase someplace in front - maybe where the dining areas are currently. I wouldn't put it where the little second bedroom is in each unit, because that would occupy two of the valuable south-facing windows.
2. Yes, the building's low unit count is a concern. I think the relatively high maintenance and limited amenities reflect issue, and it's only going to get worse. On the other hand, 225 CPW has hundreds of apartments, and the economics there scare me too.
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Response by happyrenter
about 17 years ago
Posts: 2790
Member since: Oct 2008
west81st,
what's wrong with 225?
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Response by bela
about 17 years ago
Posts: 183
Member since: Jul 2008
West 81st your open house reports are what brings me to streeteasy. THANK YOU
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Response by patient09
about 17 years ago
Posts: 1571
Member since: Nov 2008
bela: you had me at hello
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Response by TripleP
about 17 years ago
Posts: 127
Member since: Dec 2008
We attended an open house at 235 E 22nd, 4L. New to market, asking $765K. Traffic was decent, with at least two couples/ unique visitors at a time. Apartment needs a gut renovation of the kitchen (appliances don't even work), bathroom, and floors refinished. On the plus side, building is top quality, apartment has fireplace, good closets, nice pre-war details.
Since the building requires 40% down and the apartment needs serious work before it is liveable, at this ask price, buyer would need to pony up about $400K ($300 deposit + $100+ rennovations).
Does it even make sense to spend $400K plus upfront?
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Response by julia
about 17 years ago
Posts: 2841
Member since: Feb 2007
TripleP...I attended the open house at 235 E. 22nd to see the studio apartment. Again, needed a gut renovation and maintenance was $900 for a studio. The bldg. is one of my favorites but 40% down is high.
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Response by West81st
about 17 years ago
Posts: 5564
Member since: Jan 2008
Bela: My pleasure.
HR: As far as I know, 225's finances are fine, and I like the fact that not everyone in the building is filthy rich (see 211). But the building is such a patchwork of layouts and socioeconomic circumstances that fiscal governance in harder times could be extremely difficult. Diversity is great until the retired music teacher next door can't pay his share of an assessment. Getting everyone on the same page to spruce up the lobby and hallways was hard enough during the boom years.
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Response by TripleP
about 17 years ago
Posts: 127
Member since: Dec 2008
Julia: I think the question is whether it makes sense to spend so much cash in a time of serious economic uncertainty and low rates! Is it worth putting down 40% when you could get another home for 20% down with low mortgage payments? It is a great building... but the more I think about it, the more I am convinced to keep looking.
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Response by walterh7
about 17 years ago
Posts: 383
Member since: Dec 2006
W81st...as always, thank you for your thoughts and legwork.
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Response by azil
about 17 years ago
Posts: 47
Member since: Jan 2009
did anyone get to check out the classic 6 at 800 WEA? thoughts?
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Response by Anon101
about 17 years ago
Posts: 28
Member since: Jan 2007
255 West End Ave, 2G 2BR, 1.5 Bath $699K
Went to the open house today. Relatively busy, saw about 5 parties in the 30 minutes I was there. TOTAL GUT, perhaps the tub? Hard to say if its worth putting 100k into it in this market.
Positives: Flow is very good and the room sizes are very good particularly the second BR. Taking down the wall to the kitchen is an easy win that would improve the kitchen and living room. Having a second bath is very nice. Huge closets and a good number. Big master bath. Relatively good light although the LR was not bright. New windows and a nice entry gallery.
Negatives: Floor is low and the bus stop outside the window. Light is not great in the LR. The condition is very rough which is expected but the pipes coming through the ceiling from the other apts are worrisome from a noise/build quality perspective. (This line has an extra window starting on the 6th floor which would make the LR much brighter.)
Maint has gone up significantly in the last few years. 14A in the same line sold 2 years ago on a high floor with maint of 1,101 and now this low floor has $1,550. According to a neighbor its going up again in February. The elevator looks new and the lobbies have new wall paper and fixtures. Apparently there is a small underlying mortgage. The building by the look of it was not built to the higher standards compared to some of the nicer WEA buildings. Mailboxes are in the lobby, a space heater was heating the lobby etc.
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Response by neophyte
about 17 years ago
Posts: 2
Member since: Jan 2009
West81st...I've looked and the two units at 20 W. 77th and would concur with your views. I'm curious in your comment re negotiability on #6B. Any further clues you can share on this?
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Response by West81st
about 17 years ago
Posts: 5564
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Neophyte: Google Dana Kroll. And after you read about her recent wedding, Google her father, Jules.
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Response by notadmin
about 17 years ago
Posts: 3835
Member since: Jul 2008
west81st, are you an appraiser? i have no doubt you are a pro in real estate, but don't know what kind.
Pardon my spelling: e.g. "apointed" = "appointed".
West 81st I love your commentary. Always a pleasure to read your open house reports. Your powers of observation and communication skills are a Streeteasy treasure. Thanks.
81: nice piece of work.
Looked at 141 e. 3rd, 9D last weekend and returned this weekend for another look with our broker. Ask is 999K, marked down from 1.2M. Lots of lookers on Sunday, but not the WE before. Nice layout, kitchen and bath, strange white floors. Nice views. It is about 200K too expensive for us but my broker reckons someone will bite at 900K, despite the declining market. It is already vacated and the owner purchased for 770K in 2004.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/329501-coop-141-east-3rd-street-east-village-new-york
Anyone else see this one?
west81st,
a couple of questions:
1. did anyone mention the possibility of duplexing? since it isn't mentioned i assume it isn't possible, but i'm not sure.
2. would you be concerned buying into such a small building? i love the feel of a small coop, but it concerns me that any major problems with the building will have to shouldered by a small number of units, and in this case a small number of relatively small units.
Thanks West81st for your invaluable contribution.
Is it possible you visit many of these to see if Annie can get it done?
HR -
1. Nobody talked about duplexing while I was there. When I arrived, Joanna Pashby was busy trying to justify the price difference between #7B and #6B (which she had partly eradicated by hand-writing the newly-reduced ask on her show sheets). The Elliman associate who covered the #6B open house didn't seem to know much, so I didn't bother asking her. I don't think the layout lends itself very well to duplexing, assuming it's even feasible. The wet areas are all in the back of the apartment, so you would have to squeeze a staircase someplace in front - maybe where the dining areas are currently. I wouldn't put it where the little second bedroom is in each unit, because that would occupy two of the valuable south-facing windows.
2. Yes, the building's low unit count is a concern. I think the relatively high maintenance and limited amenities reflect issue, and it's only going to get worse. On the other hand, 225 CPW has hundreds of apartments, and the economics there scare me too.
west81st,
what's wrong with 225?
West 81st your open house reports are what brings me to streeteasy. THANK YOU
bela: you had me at hello
We attended an open house at 235 E 22nd, 4L. New to market, asking $765K. Traffic was decent, with at least two couples/ unique visitors at a time. Apartment needs a gut renovation of the kitchen (appliances don't even work), bathroom, and floors refinished. On the plus side, building is top quality, apartment has fireplace, good closets, nice pre-war details.
Since the building requires 40% down and the apartment needs serious work before it is liveable, at this ask price, buyer would need to pony up about $400K ($300 deposit + $100+ rennovations).
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/235-east-22-street-new_york
Does it even make sense to spend $400K plus upfront?
TripleP...I attended the open house at 235 E. 22nd to see the studio apartment. Again, needed a gut renovation and maintenance was $900 for a studio. The bldg. is one of my favorites but 40% down is high.
Bela: My pleasure.
HR: As far as I know, 225's finances are fine, and I like the fact that not everyone in the building is filthy rich (see 211). But the building is such a patchwork of layouts and socioeconomic circumstances that fiscal governance in harder times could be extremely difficult. Diversity is great until the retired music teacher next door can't pay his share of an assessment. Getting everyone on the same page to spruce up the lobby and hallways was hard enough during the boom years.
Julia: I think the question is whether it makes sense to spend so much cash in a time of serious economic uncertainty and low rates! Is it worth putting down 40% when you could get another home for 20% down with low mortgage payments? It is a great building... but the more I think about it, the more I am convinced to keep looking.
W81st...as always, thank you for your thoughts and legwork.
did anyone get to check out the classic 6 at 800 WEA? thoughts?
255 West End Ave, 2G 2BR, 1.5 Bath $699K
Went to the open house today. Relatively busy, saw about 5 parties in the 30 minutes I was there. TOTAL GUT, perhaps the tub? Hard to say if its worth putting 100k into it in this market.
Positives: Flow is very good and the room sizes are very good particularly the second BR. Taking down the wall to the kitchen is an easy win that would improve the kitchen and living room. Having a second bath is very nice. Huge closets and a good number. Big master bath. Relatively good light although the LR was not bright. New windows and a nice entry gallery.
Negatives: Floor is low and the bus stop outside the window. Light is not great in the LR. The condition is very rough which is expected but the pipes coming through the ceiling from the other apts are worrisome from a noise/build quality perspective. (This line has an extra window starting on the 6th floor which would make the LR much brighter.)
Maint has gone up significantly in the last few years. 14A in the same line sold 2 years ago on a high floor with maint of 1,101 and now this low floor has $1,550. According to a neighbor its going up again in February. The elevator looks new and the lobbies have new wall paper and fixtures. Apparently there is a small underlying mortgage. The building by the look of it was not built to the higher standards compared to some of the nicer WEA buildings. Mailboxes are in the lobby, a space heater was heating the lobby etc.
West81st...I've looked and the two units at 20 W. 77th and would concur with your views. I'm curious in your comment re negotiability on #6B. Any further clues you can share on this?
Neophyte: Google Dana Kroll. And after you read about her recent wedding, Google her father, Jules.
west81st, are you an appraiser? i have no doubt you are a pro in real estate, but don't know what kind.
http://www.entertonement.com/clips/42443/Get-used-to-disappointment
ok
Thanks West81st. Looks like you could have a future in the family business.
I've worked with them. It was expensive.
lol