curious, is there a service that evaluates buildings

The service is called a good buyer's agent.

Kyle: thanks, but I was kinda thinking beyond that. It would be impossible for someone to specialize in this information and be an agent also. Too many buildings in the City...ex..After you find an apt you like and have an agreed price. Have this service provide you with a 20 page unbiased, reasearch driven write-up on the building.

This could be hard to get as most this stuff will require getting the board minutes and building financials. The only way I know to get this stuff is from the managing agent.

burk:
thanks, yep, and thats why it would have value, readily available stuff has little value.

I agree. Sounds like something propertyshark or streeteasy could offer paying members. On this note it really pays to have a very good real estate attorney very few perform a thorough due diligence(good for brokers-not good for buyers)not sure if any read the offering plans. One attorney when we had some questions regarding buildings finances told us he doesn't have an opinion, if you want one send the financials to your CPA.

"The service is called a good buyer's agent."

That's a joke, right? That would be the buyer's agent who is paid by the seller? I doubt that a buyer's agent would ever truly represent the buyer. If you do not pay someone, they do not work for you.

Like others have mentioned, Google, StreetEasy, PropertyShark, plus your own lawyer.

I used to think that lawyers were superfluous in a real estate transaction, but having seen how the whole country has been duped by disreputable real estate agents, bankers, appraisers, etc, I think the rest of the country should adopt the New York model and hire lawyers from day one.

Sure, some people who got stuck with bad loans knew what they were signing up for, but a lot of people got talked into deals where they did not understand the risks involved. As one of my friends mentioned to me, there are honest predatory lenders and dishonest predatory lenders. Honest predatory lenders stick you with a bad deal so they can get your house. Dishonest predatory lenders expect you to keep paying the interest rates you signed up for, even when you can't make the payments.

A good buyer's agent SHOULD be able to provide relevant info on the building. In practice it's not the most reliable source, as buyer's agent are incentivized to make sure the sale goes through.

The real test is through the due dilligence process that the buyer's attorney performs, and a good lawyer would know what relevante questions to ask.

patient09, I think your idea is a good one, but because coops are private companies, they're not required to disclose a lot of information (i.e. financials) until the buyer demonstrates commitment to buy (i.e. signed contract).

uptowngal,
Exactly. If all people involved in the transaction are paid based on the fact that the transaction goes through, then nobody will honestly represent the buyer's interests. After all, representing the buyer's interests could involve telling them to walk away from a bad deal. Your own lawyer is your only chance to get an honest opinion. The rest of the country has ignored this at their own peril.

I think I learned this about twenty five years ago when I noticed wink-wink-nudge-nudge between the real estate agent and the house inspector, who, of course, had been recommended by the agent. This was on the first house I had ever bought.

For $200, streeteasy or property shark is going to be able spit some numbers at you. For $2,000, a decent real estate attorney is going to ask a few incisive questions, and possibly steer you away from the worst possible buildings for you.

For $20,000, an experienced real estate agent can give you a real detailed picture of a building, its history, who lives there, what happens at the board meetings, and what the financials really mean.

In other words, the source of that information already exists; the question is whether you want to pay for it. Attempts to drive down cost (for example, by forgoing an agent and relying on an attorney) may or may not work for you, depending on how finely grained you want your information, and what your risk of missing something is.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

407 I think most attorney's want the deal to go through as well, then they make the full freight. Working with people you know and trust is your best chance at getting accurate and honest service.

I may be getting paid from the seller, but I am also ethical and feel a natural obligation to my buyer whom most of the time has been referred to me by a friend. This is a business that you make money in on a referral basis. I would not have lasted 17 years if I was providing dishonest service to either my buyers or sellers. You are certainly free to generalise, stereotype all you want...buy I don't think we have met before?

I actually this is supposed to be your attorney, not a broker. But they can only read what they are given. And they are too busy doing multiple transactions to really do the paralysis of analysis type stuff that you want.

Actually, lawyers can make more if they steer you away from a few deals so that you have to pay them to draw up multiple contracts, so, in some ways, they profit when things go wrong. I have worked with my lawyer on multiple occasions so I trust her to give me her honest opinion.

By the way, I know far more about my building than does any agent, since, I live there, after all, and I pay the bills. I am an honest and ethical seller, whether I am selling goods on eBay, where I have a perfect record, or apartments through the New York Times. I prefer to represent myself in my own business dealings.

I am speaking generally of how the real estate industry works, through lots of conflict of interest, which, in the end, does not serve the buyers well, as can be seen in this real estate debacle. We will not be meeting, I am not looking for an agent.

Ok, thanks for all the comments, I guess the service I was hoping to employ doesn't exist.

I think time spent securing a good agent and excellent lawyer specializing in real estate is time well spent. Generalities about how many agents and attorneys will fail you speak more about one's own inability to vet and hire good people than what good agents and lawyers actually do.

The agent I used in buying specialized in the neighborhood I was looking in. She also had extensive building management experience in NYC. She knew all the managing agents, many people on various buildings' staffs, and had feedback from former clients about various boards. In the search, I was the one who usually pulled together the listings to see since I lived on Streeteasy during that time; the agent would make the appointments or tag along to open houses if I was serious about a property. She regularly steered me clear of buildings with impossible renovation policies, unreasonable boards, or poor histories of maintaining the physical plant. She knew most buildings' special assessment histories. She schmoozed with seller's agents and often was able to get info I couldn't such as the seller's exact situation (estate, nursing home, job relocation, growing family) which was helpful to me in formulating bids and negotiating strategies.

If you don't care to work with an agent, that's fine. But they can be used effectively and add value in the nature of what the OP asked. My response wasn't meant to be facetious.

The attorney I hired was a RE lawyer at a large firm. Instead of $1000, he cost me $2500. I was happy to pay it. His due diligence was a thorough investigation--not a proforma rubber stamp. Would a service have helped me? Perhaps, but only as a start--the due diligence is much more important. So far as a service reporting on financials and offering opinions on buildings, I imagine the liability issues are extensive and would be tough to get around. The duty of care such a service would owe to a subscriber would be problematic.

financial information of condos is available publicly?

How strange it is that buyers desperately search for leverage by inquiring about the seller's health, family situation, job status, mental condition, how long they have lived in the apartment, why are they moving, etc etc. I find it unseemly. Why not just negotiate in good faith, based on what you think the asset is worth to you, without all of this nonsense? It is none of the buyer's business why the unit is being sold.

I am leery of letting agents steer me towards or away from anything. I would rather make up my own mind.

Yes, liability issues are a large concern so you will not see a public disclosure of coop financials on any public website. I have no idea about condos.

"How strange it is that buyers desperately search for leverage by inquiring about the seller's health, family situation, job status, mental condition, how long they have lived in the apartment, why are they moving, etc etc."

maybe it's just a thermometer of how the market had shifted. before, the buyer was scrutinized till exhaustion and all the stress was put on him "decide now or it will go to somebody else" type of pressure. now it's beginning to be the opposite way. fair game that goes either way. it's 100% fair for a buyer to try to get the most sq footage and location for it's hard earned bucks. the more room for negotiations, the lower the price. it's that easy.

U.S. Senator Johnny Isakson, R-Ga: ‘She said: Johnny, I had nine people come to my open house last weekend…Every one of them had the money and they wanted to buy, but they were looking for two things: a short sale, which means somebody selling their house for less than is owed on it and getting a discount from the lender, which means it is a downward price or they are looking for somebody whose house is going into foreclosure that they think they can steal.’”

think that people that are still on the sidelines will want to compensate those years of renting by buying for the lowest price possible. more than fair in my view.

Or maybe, it is simply do the imbedded conflicts of interest in a RE transaction, where buyers feel they, at the margin, have been fucked over and over again. Now, for the first time in 15 years or so, they feel as though they have an edge. So they should try to squeeze every nickel out of the transaction. Seems very rational to me.

>> Ok, thanks for all the comments, I guess the service I was hoping to employ doesn't exist.

patient09, find a good real estate attorney that you trust. But know that if you'll have to pay his/her rates if he finds something that would kill the transaction.

Over five years ago, I had an attorney that warned me about the "no finance contingency" clause for a rental conversion. It ultimately killed the deal. I was pissed at her and still paid her, but now wiser I realize that she was just doing her job.

The problem with the past few years was that people don't want little things killing their deal because a lot of time is spent identifying a property at a price. A lot of people don't want to hear the truth (if you know what I mean).

So, this is all about exacting retribution for past slights, that's what you guys are saying? How sad. Selling real estate is a business transaction. The personal issues involved in the sale should have nothing to do with how the price is set. I guess I feel better about not hiring an agent, who would probably make something up in order to bring in offers. The seller is facing immediate bankruptcy and will accept any offer! The seller is insane and does not know how to sign his name! The seller has twelve children to feed and needs the money!

There is only one rule in life, I guess, that there is always someone trying to beat you out of property. If the bankers don't beat you out of it, other buyers will try to beat you out of it. I believe that fair deals are possible in all market conditions. Just stick to price negotiations.

patient09, maybe another option is to ask your lawyer to let you read the board meeting notes yourself. But realize that sometimes the notes hide anything negative. I know this firsthand.

(meaning I've been tricked before)

To all:
Many great ideas..I may have mis labeled the thread. I am more interested in the real dirty stuff. I could probably research "most" stuff myself. I was just curious if any really deep dark secret type stuff exists. Madoff's gay contact with Hamas who he funneled all the money to has a drop box in the basement. The unbuilt 4th rail of the IRT tunnel runs under the NE corner of the building. The builder used asbestos insulation 2 years after disallowed but never removed it from the 7th floor, only the other floors. Combination legal, private detective, EHollywood, archaelogist/historian.

As an old friend told me, every real estate transaction hands you page out of the real estate book of woe. Every time the page is different, it is one you have never seen before and will never see again. Good luck with whatever page you get.

As Robert Penn Warren wrote, in his incredible novel, "All the King's Men":

"Man is conceived in sin and born in corruption and he passeth from the stink of the didie to the stench of the shroud. There is always something."

>> As an old friend told me, every real estate transaction hands you page out of the real estate book of woe. Every time the page is different, it is one you have never seen before and will never see again.

407PAS, very very true. But you can definitely learn from prior mistakes.

Buying isn't perfect, but neither is renting either. Some people don't like to be stuck in paralysis of analysis forever. Tally up how much time/energy/stress you've spent looking for a place to buy! That time has to equate to something.

Agreed. Yes, prior mistakes teach us many lessons. In the end, we have to live our lives and learn from our experiences. Sometimes that means putting our money on the line. I remember when I first moved to New York, years ago, when I bought my first apartment. I was at a party where a whole bunch of renters laughed at me. They had held off buying through countless cycles and had missed a lot of deals. My deal turned out ok. Sometimes you just have to get into the game.

There is no perfection in the universe. May people be happy, whether they rent or own.

"How strange it is that buyers desperately search for leverage by inquiring about the seller's health, family situation, job status, mental condition, how long they have lived in the apartment, why are they moving, etc etc."

i'm curious now, did this thing happen to you or somebody you know? i mean the Q&A while having sth on the market.

admin,
This scenario was mentioned here in a post by kylewest:

"She schmoozed with seller's agents and often was able to get info I couldn't such as the seller's exact situation (estate, nursing home, job relocation, growing family) which was helpful to me in formulating bids and negotiating strategies."

but the same sort of thing happens to me all the time. A lot of buyers seems to go through this dance where they try to ascertain if you have some weakness they can exploit. I usually tell them I have three months to live.

407PAS, I think you have a limited, if not naive, view of negotiations. Take two scenarios where an apartment is for sale for $1MM and the buyer likes the apartment very much. In scenario one, a family with two children own the unit and would like to sell it if they can get enough money to purchase a larger one given their particular finances. They are in no particular rush but would sell at the right price. In scenario number two, the unit is owned by an estate of an 85 year old woman who left no assets other than the apartment; her two children are beneficiaries and executors. Each month, they shell out money for maintenance; they see the value sliding as the market deteriorates. Sale of the unit for the children would result in windfall profits so to speak and continued holding of the unit costs them money out of pocket.

I would negotiate differently with each party. I think there is a good chance I could fund my renovations entirely with the money I saved by effectively negotiating with the estate sale. On the other hand, I would realize the family with 2 kids was unlikely to be very flexible on price and negotiations would likely be constricted to a narrower range.

Knowing an "adversary's" motivation and time constraints is always an advantage in effective negotiations. It isn't about "good" or "bad" faith. It's about information.

And in terms of simply "offering what you think it is worth," if you think an apartment is worth $1MM but you can negotiate a sale for $900K, why shouldn't you? Just because you wouldn't pay more than you think something is worth has nothing to do with trying to get it for less than the value you ascribe to it.

kylewest,
Of course, I understand the motivation behind securing this kind of information. I never said anything about bad faith or good faith, only about bad taste. I will not hire any agents to traffic in such information, thanks for reminding me of this possible exposure.

Your assumptions may be all wrong. Hopefully, if a property is exposed to enough of the market, the price will be set accordingly and all of your scheming against the estate sale will fall flat. eBay has put a wonderful dent in the estate sale racket, helping people realize fair value for their assets. I hope the same for the real estate business.

"but the same sort of thing happens to me all the time. A lot of buyers seems to go through this dance where they try to ascertain if you have some weakness they can exploit. I usually tell them I have three months to live."

LOL, 3 months to live is a good one! hey, all this shows that buyers know that waiting benefits them. they feel that prices will keep on going down while inventory keeps on moving higher. why not browse as an activity? i remember when some real estate markets began to crack (more than 2 years ago already!) some bloggers would comment on open houses they were going to just to low ball like there was no tomorrow. just for the fun of it. also, while low balling asking things like "is the flat screen included"?

i totally understand your point, it's bad taste if you are on the receiver end. all they are asking is "what is your reservation price? and is this a distressed sale?" and move on if it's not. if you are open to answer those 2 with 100% honesty then you free yourself from all the bad taste but you might end up with a lower price than needed. this could be called "the price for good taste"?

407PAS wrote: "Why not just negotiate in good faith..."
And then later s/he wrote: "I never said anything about bad faith or good faith..."

It's hard to engage in a discussion with you when you ignore what you wrote a couple of paragraphs earlier.

"In the long run, we are all dead." - John Maynard Keynes

Reservation price depends on the person making the offer, their chances of success with the board, their finances, and what other offers are on the table. Distressed sale: Nope. You might have to wait a long time to find the apartment of your dreams being sold by a distressed seller.

Sure, there are lots of lookers out there, I have met some of them. I would like to believe that people would find other things to do with their time if they have absolutely no intention of buying. I know I have a million things I would rather do than cruise open houses.

In the end, the question is whether we treat each other with respect and dignity when we engage in business. I think it shows respect for other people when you don't waste their time. I like to be treated with respect, whether I am a seller or a buyer. I strive to treat others in the same way.

Sorry kylewest, I did say good faith. I still mean you should just negotiate over price without going to such lengths to ascertain the seller's personal circumstances. Your behavior harkens back to the days of reading the obituaries to see who could be taken advantage of. I would have a hard time living with myself if I stooped to such behavior. May the efficient workings of the market deliver fair value to all sellers.