Any word from the street on open houses this wknd?

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/8377-a-family-considers-2brs-under-900k

nope. husband just not interested on buying in nyc at all! just in renting same unit or better for less money. in need another hobby now. we prefer to buy a productive asset for 1-2 million (like farm land). is anybody out there reconsidering it all like us?

Farm land is not profitable. Many small farms have gone out of business because they can't compete with the corporate farms.

sure, this would add land to an existing profitable one (lowering fixed costs). the price of land suffered its own bubble too, so the bottom fishing might end up being at similar timings.

does anybody know good sources of info on farm land mkt?

i had an open house but it was slow.
i a couple came by, along with someone in the building for their 2nd look (has relatives who may be interested) and a broker.
very slow. 3 weeks ago i had about 15 people.
http://web.me.com/seif69/11K/HOME.html

I had a frustrating OH weekend. The first apt. (very small classic seven at 114 East 84th) only allowed 1 family to see the place at a time. There is no way I am standing in line for half an hour on a beautiful Sunday to see what looks from the listing pix to be a tiny, poorly renovated, overpriced unit with mega maintenance. Hence, I did not stay to see it. Second OH I stopped at (57 East 75th) had a hand-written sign on the door saying that #3 had a signed contract and OH was cancelled.

alpine in the Big Island the RE tax on an acre of land is $50K/yr... put a self-feeding cow on it... RE tax = $200/yr... yes as in 2 hundred.

admin (female? hmmmm).. :) Wait till the Bad Bank starts selling assets... commercial/residential properties for 1/5 construction price and 13% cap rate... that should CF enough to buy your CPW 7 for $500psf :) in 4 years... and enjoy negos with current landlord every year till you pull trigger.. Everytime I call my landlord... I KNOW... his heart sinks :) you should see my smirk :)

Admin, United Country real estate sells farms and land across the country. www.unitedcountry.com. Not sure they have any kind of forum associated.

admin (female? hmmmm).. :) Wait till the Bad Bank starts selling assets... commercial/residential properties for 1/5 construction price and 13% cap rate... that should CF enough to buy your CPW 7 for $500psf :) in 4 years... and enjoy negos with current landlord every year till you pull trigger.. Everytime I call my landlord... I KNOW... his heart sinks :) you should see my smirk :)

yes, female. sorry about that. anything we buy is going to be distressed as you suggest (including land, as people borrowed heavily to buy it where we are looking but i have to study it much more). it's a 100% financial decision for me, not a sentimental one. if no buying means a bigger investment portfolio with a nicer return, then that's the way i'd go. 2012-2014 will be foreclosure/tax sale paradise i think, but i'm still concerned about carrying costs that are totally out of my control (property taxes, maintenance... have no where to go but up so i'd like to be compensated for that too). anyway, i sound like a greedy bitch by now. better end this here.

I went to 3 open houses-

200 Congress Street #6A - 1 bed - $510K. Decent foot traffic, I think there were 3 other couples there at the same time. Definitely not 750 sq ft as advertised, definitely don't like the building.

173 Hicks #6D - 2 bed/2 bath - $599K. I liked this unit a lot, had private outdoor space and was pretty much move in ready. Didn't realize it when I read the listing that dogs were not allowed, and so this was a dealbreaker for me when the agent told me. Solid traffic here as well, probably 2 or 3 other couples looking at the same time as me.

One Brooklyn Bridge Park - Various - $Expensive. Despite living in BK Heights for quite some time, I've never gone over to One BBP. I didn't have much else to do yesterday afternoon so figured why not, and it basically just confirmed that I'd never want to live there. A lot to like about the complex, but for my needs, too much I don't like. Not to mention that for $600K, I'd be living in a stuido+office 20 feet above the BQE. Just not worth the prices they're asking. The broker said they're 30% sold, but only 15% occupied, it's like a ghost town walking through those long hallways not seeing anyone else. There were at least 8 other people (mostly couples) looking at units as well, not sure if that's considered heavy traffic for a building with hundreds of units available for sale.

I visited a few open houses on Lower Fifth a/k/a/ GV's "Gold Coast":

2 Fifth jr-four: badly in need of top to bottom reno; worn and dated throughout; balcony tiles a wreck, overall rooms bit cramped, whole building is over-priced IMO, high maint. for amenities I couldn't care less about (gym [not an Equinox], library and children's playroom or something among others). Decent traffic (first open house held for this new listing) but lots of browsing. If you don't face the park, I don't get this building given cost of apts and maint. Public halls are dowdy, elevator button panel rattled around loose.

25 Fifth 2 bedroom: 120% gut reno; nice light; working fireplace. At $1.4MM in a condo-conversation that has sold only 37/88 units (no doubt rest are full of rent control/subsidized tenants who aren't going anywhere) I don't know that a bank could be found to even finance this purchase. Public spaces nice; elevator NOT for the claustrophobic. Saw a single guy looking--no one else.

41 Fifth 2 bedroom: nice enough; terribly expensive; one of those elevator operator buildings--I hate that personally. New kitchen somewhat taste specific blue counters, but nicely done. Creative addition of second bath (taste-specific glass tiles in blue and pink not for everyone), but nothing thrilling about overall layout. Saw one other couple.

51 Fifth "classic 6": estate sale (young-ish owner passed away from illness I heard). Place has potential--needs work to make layout make more sense. New kitchen and baths required. Saw 2 other couples and same single guy from last place.

Overall: low-moderate traffic; general air was not one of any sort of urgency; lots of contemplating looks on faces; agents calmer than I was used to from 8 months ago...and nicer.

""we prefer to buy a productive asset for 1-2 million (like farm land). ""

Bad idea. Most small-to-medium farm owners are bailing (and have been doing so for years now). They just cannot complete with the larger operations. You are extremely unlikely to find profit in a $1-$2M farmland deal; more likely to lose big time.

squid, as i said before "this would add land to an existing profitable one (lowering fixed costs). the price of land suffered its own bubble too, so the bottom fishing might end up being at similar timings.

does anybody know good sources of info on farm land mkt?"

admin... can you be my back-up wife? My starter wife is starting to get needy :)

kyle,
what would you do with 51 5th to rationalize the layout? that kitchen/maids room/laundry room area just makes no sense whatsoever. the only thing that would make sense as far as i can make out would be to simply eliminate the maidsroom and merge it into the kitchen for a big eat-in. but then it's only a 2 bedroom. any other ideas?

NCREIF puts together a return index for institutional farmland. (Pension funds and endowments do invest in it.)

Last I looked it had been a dog for many years but then really took off as agricultural commodity prices took off. I'm guessing it has softened a good deal lately.

Kyle....I saw that apt at 2 Fifth yesterday too though you must have come after me as there had only been one person before us and no one else while we were there. And I completely agree with your assessment. How bout that bathroom

Admin: Farms are A LOT of work. I think I would come up with a different hobby.

thanks w67th, you are very generous. blossom, you're right. i'm not allergic to work but shouldn't complicate life without any need either. managing a portfolio is easier, requires less work, provides some adventure, low transaction costs... will make that my hobby. wish me luck.

I looked at the 41 Fifth apt a few weeks ago. I found the layout to be awkward (esp. the step up to the "master bath") and claustrophobic - I'd probably try to blow out the second bedroom to enlarge the living area. The bathroom renovations looked kind of cheap, too. Manned elevators can be nice under the right circumstances, but 41 seems to have too many apartments per floor for it to be nice and intimate...

sizzlack: re: 2 Fifth bathroom. WHAT was that mirrored 6' tall ceiling?! I'm kinda short and I could rest my palm on the ceiling! Did you notice the rest of the ceiling skim coat all over the apt was peeling? Just what you want to spend renovation money on--skim coating the ceiling. In fairness, it is priced accurately with respect to comps, but not with respect to a market in decline. At $900K, someone might want to put $125K into it, but I just don't think I'd want to own in that building unless I had the unbelievably nice park views. Lots of apts with real outdoor space, too, but not exactly my price range.

buster: re 41 Fifth, that place is a challenge. Be prepared to spend MINIMUM $30,000 on an architect from start to finish for the job and I imagine $300K for renovations. The 3rd bedroom was obviously created by reconfiguring things badly and leaving a weird kitchen. Originally (as you seem to have figured out too) the kitchen has a maid's room and little washroom in the back. They've eliminated the washroom, hooked up a w/d to the old wastelines I guess, and left that odd alley. I find with most of these prewars, they make great 1 bedrooms for an astronomical price. This place is just that. 2d bedroom should be a study, walls need to be built to stop all those double entry bathrooms. Third bedroom should probably be in-kitchen-dining area. Access to the toilet from the existing dining area is disgusting, too. A good architect might be able to make it all work, but only if the buyer is willing to make it a one-bedroom with guest room/den, I think. They are replacing the elevator man with an electronic elevator,so that annoyance will disappear. You are right about that elevator servicing too many apts per floor in a large building. I for one am always forgetting things at home in the morning and would loathe having to go back up and down with a human elevator operator each time.

What really struck me is just how very much WORK everything I saw needed. People really let their homes get awfully run down. I suspect much of the wear came from decades of rent control/stabilization and older tenants who eventually bought and did very little since they were used to the existing conditions.

kyle,

you are a funny guy. you consider the apartment at 51 5th avenue rundown? i mean, i assume the next buyers will want to freshen it up but it is certainly in perfectly livable condition as it is. i'd also add that it is very, very silly to call a bathroom that can be accessed off a dining room disgusting. i guess bathrooms are sort of gross no matter where they are, but why is that any worse than anywhere else? i know you are a great devotee of post-war buildings, but to say that this is an expensive one bedroom is silly.

kylewest - I think you are confusing 51 with 41 (51 has all of the double entry bathrooms, and I think it's actually a lovely apartment in many ways, if we are talking about 12B). 41 was a two-bedroom max (but really a huge 1-bedroom if you wanted to blow out the living room wall). The owners added in a second bathroom where the dining area formerly resided, and it really chopped up the place. I was thinking it might be nice for my sister, but probably not...

Happyrenter: i like many 1950s building, but see the charm of the prewars. Heck, I've looked at everyone down here. But 51 Fifth, for someone willing to pay millions for it, isn't going to be someone willing to live in that place. You don't pay millions to live like that. The bathrooms are past their day by about 2-3 decades. Showers are worse than my gym (that's bad). As for toilets, come on! A toilet 4 feet from the formal dining table? Could you imagine the awkwardness if a guest excused themselves during dinner? The human sounds, the odors upon exiting the room and not shutting the door, the flushing toilet sounds. You pay millions to hear guests pee and poop during dinner!!! Down a hallway, please. Around a corner. Off the foyer or entrance. SOMETHING other than IN the dining room!!

The kitchen is tolerable is you don't mind paying millions for tasteless GREEN FORMICA! Really, now. And the laundry nook in the kitchen is pretty down-scale, too. No one even made an effort to make that space work.

The current arrangement makes the place reminiscent of a railroad flat, and it should be a gracious, beautiful home. It'll take quite a bit to get it there. On top of some reconfiguring, the walls desperately need skim coating, bathrooms are complete guts, kitchen reconfigured and updated, floors can probably be mostly salvaged, all window frames stripped, lighting updated, etc. This adds up.

Yes, one could move in to it like that, but I think the vast majority of buyers of an apartment like that have higher expectations in terms of quality of living. That is perhaps just the elitist in me (ask Julia all about how horribly elitist I am), but I nonetheless think it is an accurate assessment of the market for the unit.

kyle,

we must just have different taste. sure: it would be great to have a powder room off the foyer but that's extremely rare in a classic six. about half of them have bathrooms that can only be accessed from a bedroom. i'd much rather it this way with bathroom access off a public room.

the bathrooms are perfectly fine, nice prewar bathrooms. they need a little updating but they certainly don't need to be gutted.

the kitchen is ugly i agree and eventually will need to be redone. but it's certainly livable.

as for skim coating and painting, i mean, i assume i'll be painting any apartment i buy. that's not exactly a big deal.

if you think this apartment is so awful, i'd be interested in seeing an example of an apartment this size and price point in the village that you think is decent.

oh i just saw another one: floors can "probably" be "mostly salvaged." is this a joke? you are too used to 50s parquet. the apartment has beautiful hardwood floors. you would consider replacing them?

First, happyrenter, (and I'm smiling because I like our exchanges--would LOVE to do open houses with you!!) painting and skim coating are world's apart. Skim coating a room prior to painting could cost thousands of dollars. An entire apartment usually comes to a shocking amount. I really disagree about the bathrooms--that locker room shower stall situation? Come on. No way.

As for floors, you may actually be right and me wrong--I saw 4 or 5 apartments and may have mixed that up because only one had okay floors--it may be 51. I think it was 25 Fifth that had all the nails showing from having been sanding too many times. And actually, I dislike parquet of the 1960s intensely. Real parquet from 1920's/30's or older is nice. But that cheap stuff they used all over the UES and in the white brick buildings we can agree is dreadful.

What is nice? 51 Fifth after some reconfiguring and a $200,000 renovation. That would be nice. But this is too beat up and run down and dowdy feeling for now. If I see pix of something I love, I'll be sure to post a link for you. Maybe if new things come on market this week we can check them out together next Sunday!? It'll be like Ebert and Roper meets "What's My Place Worth."

Did I say $200K renovation? I like really expensive doorknobs and the like. Better make it more like $300K.

hehe. my only point, kylewest, is that if you can't name one single apartment in your desired area (the village) that you think is nice something may be wrong. that's all. sure, i'll go to an open house with you. but not in a postwar unless its the butterfield house.

Anyone shopping somewhere other than 5th Ave below 14th Street?

wait--is there somewhere other than 5th avenue below 14th? ;)

It's hard to point out prewars in good shape because 90% seem to be estate sales on Lower Fifth. 30 Fifth has some very nice renovated units. I'm sure 40 Fifth does, but it is way out of my price range. And as I've said before, 20 Fifth has outstanding rentals.

no i didn't mean a prewar. i mean a nice apartment--any nice apartment. presumably an apartment around this size.

Some apartments truly in "move in" condition, reasonable layouts, and appropriate quality and taste level on finishes:

First, www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/374048-coop-30-fifth-avenue-greenwich-village-new-york
For a post-war, I like this: http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/318531-coop-20-east-9th-street-greenwich-village-new-york.

I had to divide these up...four links in a post are too much for streeteasy filter.
This agency usually has some outstanding listings: www.robilotti.com/property-dsp.cfm?ID=208.
And finally this one from another lower Fifth broker http://annweintraub.com/index.cfm?p=properties_dsp&OID_Unit=100

kylewest,

WHAT?!?!??! that first apartment you linked to in 30 5th avenue is a complete dump. have you actually seen it? unless you like plastic-coated walls, dropped ceilings with linoleum tiles, ancient, stained, wall-to-wall carpeting, grungy, cheaply-finished bathrooms, and horrible track lighting that probably wasn't even fashionable in the 70s, i think you are a little confused. move-in condition? that apartment would need 300k to get up to the level of the 51 5th apartment that you find unacceptable. it would need absolutely everything (floors, walls, bathrooms, kitchen, ceilings, doors, windows, etc. etc.) to be in the sort of move-in condition it sounds like you expect.

i have to assume you haven't seen the apartment.

now 20 east 9th:
you think the layout of 51 5th avenue makes no sense? the master bedroom in this apartment is significantly larger than the living room (unless you count that 'sitting room' as a room, which it isn't). there is no dining room. so the apartment effectively functions as about 2/3 its actual size. now, if it were priced equivalently to apartments 2/3 its actual size, then it would be fine. but it is certainly no comparison to 51 5th. i assume it is a small junior 5 with a studio tacked onto the back. the problem is that the size public area is appropriate to a junior 5, not to a classic 6 (which it is now trying to approximate).

this is fun :). we should go to an open house together--i can show you the error of your ways :).

i should have added about 20 east 9th: for 1.5 million it would be a perfectly nice apartment.

now you have found something we both love: the corner apartment at 1 5th. that is a beautiful apartment. unfortunately it is asking 2,000 per square foot (it appears to be no more than 1100 square feet). but it's definitely beautiful. hell, weintraub has a beautiful 3 bedroom at 1 5th, a touch larger than 51 5th, but it is asking 4.5 (and not selling, naturally).

whoops, just saw the deal-breaker for the 1 5th apartment: both bathrooms are accessible only through bedrooms. now that apartment really is a one bedroom--that second bedroom should be den or, better, should be merged with the living/dining. then you would have a beautiful one bedroom with a gracious layout. for the bargain price of 2.2 million.

happyrenter: you are correct--I didn't see this 30 Fifth apt and just liked the listing pix and layout. It's a dump, huh? Lot's of potential! The building really is very posh feeling--but the board is like the coven from Rosemary's Baby. I also completely ignored prices since we are playing and not buying these (all too rich for my blood). You didn't say if you like the robilotti listing for 51 Fifth. I thought that was possibly the nicest of the bunch.

The best apartment I think I've ever seen listed was a $12M 40 Fifth Ave. penthouse that Robilotti had listed about a year ago. I don't think it sold, but the listing was pulled. Terraces all over the place, a conservatory, room after room and a layout that makes people say "that's when they know how to build 'em!" Wonder what happened to that one...

kylewest,

the 40 5th penthouse never sold. and it is quite wonderful. the apartment at 30 5th 16jk will be fine with 700k of work but all told i think the 51 5th apartment is superior. the 30 5th apartment has no views, and the back windows face an internal light well, whereas 51 5th has beautiful views to the west and street views to the north. but there is a bigger problem: according to the owners of 30 5th 16jk have decided to take it off the market and to move back in. they initially expected to sell it for nearly $4 million, and now that they recognize they would have to take less than $2 million to get a deal done it is no longer worth it to them to sell. i would have bought it for 1.7.

the robilotti listing at 51 5th may be in good condition--i haven't seen it--but it just not as nice an apartment as 12B--much smaller, lower floor, and the dining room and kitchen face an internal light well, whereas all the rooms in 12B face the street. the three bedroom in 1 5th is great but not for over 2k per square foot.

"As for toilets, come on! A toilet 4 feet from the formal dining table? Could you imagine the awkwardness if a guest excused themselves during dinner? The human sounds, the odors upon exiting the room and not shutting the door, the flushing toilet sounds. You pay millions to hear guests pee and poop during dinner!!! Down a hallway, please. Around a corner. Off the foyer or entrance. SOMETHING other than IN the dining room!!"

Absolutely hilarious kylewest. The people who configure these places don't seem to think about how a room will actually be used.

Out dream is to have a bathroom where the toilet is in a separate room from the shower. The French do this in their homes and it is a brilliant idea. We could get away with one toilet, a shower, and two sinks but this seems like the impossible configuration.

Speaking of One Fifth: This was nice apartment porn while it lasted: http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/372629-coop-1-fifth-avenue-greenwich-village-new-york. Those views are beautiful, even if the color is a bit, um, photoshopped.

Kylewest, if we are thinking of the same 40 Fifth penthouse, I saw it and it was kind of a disaster. The finishings were completely out of character for the building, not to mention dated... The floorplan was a sprawling mess and if you are not a fan of wasted space, you should probably pass this one by. It was a mammoth 1-bedroom, and you would be challenged to find an elegant way to convert it into a 2-bedroom, 2 bathroom. The terraces, though... Oh, but the terraces...

Buster--I don't think that was the 40 Fifth penthouse I meant. There were two for sale a year ago: one at $12MM and one at $9MM. The $9MM was just "eh" from what I could tell. But the $12MM, although it surely needed a gadzillion dollar reno had some of the best bones I've ever seen and was a fantasy place. Would do just about anything to see it in person. I still walk by and stare up at the terraces and conservatory and imagine, "what if..."

Yeah, I saw the $9M on the east wing of the building. I don't even recall the $12M for sale, to be honest. Was it on the market for long before it was pulled?

Wasn't on very long at all. The broker who repped it showed me something else and I mentioned the penthouse for $12MM and offerred her $1MM with no mortgage contingency and quick close date. My offer was rejected, but now when I walk by with friends I point out the penthouse and explain that I once bid on it.