Renovation

I'm going to get beaten up by everyone for saying this, but unless you lived in a very, very picky co-op with crazy renovation rules, and you are so anal as to demand absolute perfection, the number was never 500/sqft, even for a complete reconfiguration of space and demolition down to studs of a large prewar apt.

I'd say if you went turnkey, you can peg 300/sqft as your absolute max and get a very nice renovation with all high end appliances, tiles, quartersawn oak, etc. Just don't specify a 100k balthaup kitchen.

I agree with 10023. At the peak a west of 3rd gut reno shouldn't have been more that $250 sq/ft, so I would think $2-$225 now. But it totally depends on your apt and location. In my experience, contractors tend to zip code - they'll look at your address/apartment, come up with a price they think they can get you to pay, and back into it from there. Maybe in this mkt they don't, but they sure did a few years ago.

In general contractors are hungry for work and are willing to deal. Talk to kylewest -- his kitchen should be done by now.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

You can almost BUY for $500/psf. That sounds absolutely nuts!

Hell, $750 psf will get you a brand new condo in FiDi!

front_porch, where would you put a number per sft? I am surprised to hear that 500 in the good days was too high since I have at least 4-5 friends that claimed to have paid that much.

get at least 5 bids, tell each that you are bidding the work out. throw out the lowest and highest and then pit the remaining three against each other.

$500 psf for what?
If the contractor does not look at your zip code, $100-150 psf should buy you a very reasonable renovation -- averaged over an entire apartment. I can see that someone may give you a $500 psf number if they are averaging over just the kitchen and had spent a lot on appliances and accoutrements.
Let's say you have a 10*10 ft kitchen and you spent a $100,000 on it -- you would average $1000 psf. This is possible to achieve. A nice kitchen remodel can be done for $25 to 50k so that would put you at 250 to 500 psf.
On the other hand if you are doing an apartment, you could count on about $20k per bathroom, and about $5-10k per regular room, so for a 3br 2 bath situation you may be looking at $100k to 120k for about 1500 to 2000 sq ft

agree with above...kinda silly to think of it by sq ft. yeah, you can end up dividing total by sq ft (assuming you can actually figure out the sq ft--agent rachel is always available to give you an exaggerated number which will instantly drive down cost per sq ft) and get a number but thinking of it as above makes more sense.

i.e. how much for kitchen and each bathroom which can vary wildly. as an example, you can get perfectly nice tile for $1 sq ft (this is for walls) or pay upwards of $100 per sq ft....your choice.

I had one done recently and it was in the range of 100 psf.

These estimates sound low. I had my bathroom done recently and it was closer to $40-50K. A kitchen for $100 doesn't sound reasonable to me if you want marble, subzero etc.

that's the point...talk about what you want not square feet. we had a bathroom done for 15K and it enables us to do everything we had hoped for.

In the kitchen I wasnt custom cabinetry, marble countertops and subzero etc applicances. Kitchen will be large (kitchen plus maids room).

columbiacounty, I thought you rent? You still did a renovation?

That's why I qualified my per/sqft number with "large prewar apt" - I'm making the assumption that there is a large kitchen & 3+ bathrooms to renovate. The per-sqft number will change depending on apt size because you have a kitchen to do whether it's big or small.

Uppereast - I did a custom cab, marble countertops and miele/subzero appliances for 26 linear feet of kitchen cabs, for approx. 40k. This does not include removing walls or plumbing/electrical rough-ins because that was part of a bigger job. 40k includes the installation of the kitchen cabs. This was '06, so peak as far as labor and material costs were concerned. Hard to break out my bathrooms because the labor was part of a bigger job - the materials ran about 5k/bathroom, 10k for the master.

Thanks, nyc10023. This is helpful info. I will have to move walls and plumbing. How much extra is that?

I think a gut reno of a large prewar apt (7+ rooms) can be broken up as follows (this assumes that you like the basic layout and floors are good, but need all new plumbing, electricals):

1) Refinishing of floors - sand, buff, reseal - 10/sqft max if you shop around. Add if there is flooring to be replaced/repaired.
2) Skim coat all walls & repair after electrical/plumbing work - this I have no experience with, someone care to put a number in?
3) Electrical - 4 outlets/room, new BX wiring everywhere + extra for things like new light fixtures & kitchen/laundry reqs + recessed lights. Think 20k for a small job, 50k if you want recessed lights everywhere
4) Media wiring - 500/room seems to be a standard # thrown around by people who know what they're doing
5) Bathroom - assuming no relocation of fixtures and luxe finishes, 30k/bathroom
6) Kitchen - assuming some plumbing relocation (prewar kitchens don't typically have great layouts), 80k - I'm being generous
7) Custom millwork - depends on your taste, personally I hate builtins, except for closet shelves so I don't know
how to price
8) Restoration & repair of baseboards, molding, doors - cheapest route is to rip it all out & buy new baseboards & molding & doors from Dyke's Lumber catalogs. If you do that, then shouldn't be more than 80k for 2500sqft (including 16+ doors, closet, interior, etc). If you go the restoration route, painstakingly stripping all moldings & doors, well, depends on your contractor's appetite for such work.
9) Misc. things like door hardware - I will be mocked here, but I have 100 dollar doorknobs.

Add all these up, and add a good GC's 20% markup (you're paying his overheads) and add architect's 10% + 5k expediter's fee. Voila!

assume $500K into a classic 6 -- moving walls, new floors, 4 baths, new plumbing, new kitchen, wt bars, w/d, new electrical, wood floors, new windows, new doors, speaker systems, outside brick, wiring, work, venting. Assume 9 months of unliveable carrying costs.

write a very very complete list, bid it out at once to g/c and lock it down.

Right, I'm making the assumption that you're not doing central air or have to do major reconfiguration or new windows or outside brick work.

Broad rules of thumb are nominally helpful. You can't answer the question without knowing: how large an apt overall; # baths; how extensive a reno--new or refinished floors, reconfigured wall, skim coating the whole place, level of finishes and hardware etc, rewiring the whole place or just tweeking it, windows need replacing, restrictions in building and age of building and layout of building--is there an elevator large enough or will stairs/hoist be needed....

It all matters. I don't see a highend reno with moderate reconfiguration,some wiring, new kitchen and baths for much less than $200K per sq/ft including all permits, architect and building approval fees. If you forego $500 door knob sets, marble, other hard to install or labor intensive items, then you can knock it down a bit. Realize that it is labor that costs the most in NYC--eliminating an expensive light for a less expensive one etc will not end up helping much. It is the SCOPE of the job that really determines price.

Tell us more and we'll give you better answers.

And no, Ali, the kitchen isn't done :(. 90% done. The last 10% of the reno takes FOREVER!!!

Another variable to consider is whether you will be getting everything done at once, or if there will be multiple phases.

From our experience at least 1000 a day for 2 guys in your apt in labor alone. To skim coat 1000 sf is about 15-20K. Once you figure the cost of labor it makes no sense to save on cabinets and fixtures in proportion to cost. What are people's thoughts of merging kitchen with adjoining rm i.e maids or dining or foyer in prewar apt? Good or Bad for resell? I personally do not like it since everyone can see kitchen mess all the time.

bela, I still have another maid's room left. One will be merged with kitchen to make eat-in kitchen, the other maid's room will be an office. Dining room is separate.

I think the totally open kitchen plan will become a dated vestige of turn-of-the-21st-Century homes and apartments. They are, however, popular now, obviously. I prefer a compromise. Partially open a corner, creatively put a bar on the corner of the kitchen, do something--anything--to shield the mess from dinner guests and company and yourself. I like it just open enough for the cook to be able to engage with someone while cooking or see the TV, but not completely exposed.

In a larger apartment with eat-in area of kitchen, I'd keep it closed off. Especially if you entertain and have help. There needs to be a staging area away from your company where clinking pots, fumes and dirty dishes aren't seen and plates can be prepared.

I know 100% "open floor plans" are all the rage, but so was granite and already we see a trending away from granite at the high end despite fact that it seemed it would be here forever. I predict same with stainless steel which will give way to more custom panels.

kyelwest, curious that you say that about granite. What do you think people prefer now?

uppereast, I would say quartz/Ceasarstone are becoming the norm for countertops.

kylewest, I think you're right about the open kitchen, though I don't think we'll go back to the closed off area. Something like the compromise you stated seems about right.

The counter top debate was recently covered in this thread:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/8985-tips-on-successfully-renovating-an-nyc-apartment