Overpriced atThe Apthorp

Great building, but way overpriced even without all the bad press and legal issues. I agree with John Doe about value would be at least 40% below the current prices. Pass.

Nice building

FYI a few of the floorplans are now available on their website.

Some plans are up. And they make no sense. StreetEasy lists 5A as a 2 bedroom for $3.375m

The floor plan shows a 1 bed/1.5bath with a storage room. A 1,868 square foot 1 bedroom. Not even a five fixture bathroom.

Common charges are listed at $1,912 and no taxes given. Without a tax abatement, they should be fairly high. This project is a disaster. But Douglas Elliman has no problem spending the marketing bucks. Nice four color, glossy postcard insert in the New York Times this week. Double ad in the Sunday real estate section last week.

Marketing dollars down the drain trying to sell a poor product. The floor plans pretty much stink. Unless you do a total conversion -- like Chelsea Mercantile or The Grand Madison -- it's hard to get decent floor plans. And the Chelsea Mercantile has so many strange ones anyway.

This piece-meal conversion at these prices are going to sit. I'd say 40% cut is a little generous. 50% and they might get some movement. No real amenities, mostly rental building, high carry and bad floor plans means you're paying for wasted square footage -- like hallways in your apartment.

D-I-S-A-S-T-E-R

You forgot to add streeteasy banner ads. ;)

Sounds like the developers can agree on practially everything:

"The original operating agreement for the property required that if problems arose and the board members could not reach unanimous agreement, they would handle the case through arbitration in a rabbinical court, or beth din. But so far, the two sides have been unable to agree on what branch of Judaism they want to hear their case: Mr. Leviev wants an Orthodox panel and Mr. Mann wants a Conservative panel."

Oy veh!

Odds the condo declaration becomes effective?

these losers dodn't have anything in contract after 2 months!?

nice bldg

prices are in line for such a good building

It's not overpriced - you just can't afford it.

wonderboy: you've hit the nail on the head!

There's no such as over-priced which is why they just lowered prices to $1,500/ft on the 1 bedrooms and there's still this broker babble:

"This is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to own a part of New York's history at below market prices that will never be seen again – once we reach our conversion goal in September, prices will most certainly go up. When people talk about the deal that got away, or say 'If only I had bought there then,' this is the property you will always hear lamented."

LMAO. It's over-priced. How do we know? Because no one is paying for it. If it were fairly priced, people would buy. Such is how supply and demand pricing works.

But you're right Wonderboy, Rem's tower at One Madison WILL be built, the unwashed masses can't afford the rent-controlled majesty that is the Apthorp and even worse, buyers dare ask what the exact finishes will be in their apartment and the answer is, "we have no idea!"

If bignycfan and wonderboy were right, there would be CONTRACTS SIGNED. The lack of contracts is pretty damn good evidence that prices are wrong. Everyone agrees it's a beautiful building and it is. The floor plans suck, partial conversions are always difficult, but it's the pricing that is out of whack.

Bottom line is this: just because a developer overpaid for the property doesn't mean buyers will. A developer cannot price based on what they paid and what they need to sell to make money. You price based on what the MARKET will accept. Huge error.

The market has spoken. bignycfan and wonderboy are wrong. It's that simple. Apartments are selling. Just not these. NONE OF THEM. If they dropped to $1,000/foot they would sell. Hence, price. Of course, they'd lose a ton of money since they overpaid but buyers don't give a rat's ass if the developer over-paid.

Old West, the Apthorp is not alone. So many of these condo projects started before the real estate world dramatically changed almost a year ago. It will take many years to return to the "good old days." For now, people just will not spend that kind of money to live in what is pushed on them as prime New York. The buyer is much more educated now and most, even foreign investors, won't fall into the trap. It's gonna be a long, ugly haul in New York real estate. However, if anyone is truly interested in selling their property, they must wake up to reality and price accordingly.

> When people talk about the deal that got away, or say 'If only I had bought there then,'

Yes, unfortunately, the actual answer there in many cases is what happened to most of the country. Broke, underwater, unemployed. All the folks who "let the deal get away" in the last few years are now thrilled.

Doesn't every infomercial or snake oil sales pitch end with "now is the opportunity of a lifetime, call now, this offer won't be repeated"?

Is Tom Vu the broker for this place? Carlton Sheets? The mega memory guy?

good points, OW, bronx and 10022.
Lets put this another way: when people were tripping all over themselves two years ago to sign contracts at 4-5k per foot at 15 CPW and the Plaza, did you hear them yelling: buy now or regret this decision for the rest of your life???
I didnt think so

Just ask these people when it was NOT a good time to buy.

"RE only goes up, there will be no decline buy now"
"OK, RE is flattening, there will be no decline, buy now"
"OK, there is a decline, we're down 5%, this is unprecedented, buy now"
"OK, we're down 10%, buy NOW"
"OK, we're down 20%, buy NOW"

Its the folks who denied there would be a decline are suddenly the experts on when it bottoms...

i know it is a beautiful old building, but for that money i would like to get some amenities. does the building have a gym? or anything besides a doorman with a snazzy hat?

Forget about the price cuts--it's the monthly maintenance and overall management I'd be worried about. You can count on your condo fees to skyrocket. I would not want to be involved with a condo board controlled by those owners.

westie has a point. Leviev, who controls the property, is a nut. Very litigious, very unstable.

Also there have been numerous threads about the Apthorp on SE.

I think in one of them people talked about structural issues in the underground parking garage beneath the Apthorp. Anyone seriously interested should look up those previous discussion threads, if I recall the parking garage is structurally unsound and nobody is using it now.

If they miss their deadline for declaring the plan effective, things are going to get REALLY interesting in this building.

Didn't know about the garage. Interesting. And no gym, etc.

I'd bet money they miss the deadline. Then what is the question. Can't file for another year. Rent them? Carry them empty and re-file and hope and pray prices re-bound? Neither a sound strategy.

And yes, the sponsors are a bit unstable. But have you seen the money Elliman has been spending on pushing this thing? Absolutely crazy.

From what I have read, I wouldn't exactly describe Mr. Leviev as a 'nut' or 'unstable'. However, he probably did start his diversification at a poor time, and hence has had some troubles.

Also, this isn't Park Ave/Fifth in the 60's where foreign buyers are interested, so the sponsors lose a powerful demographic.

The maintenance doesn't look crazy at all and I would be shocked if not one party has entered contract at this point. That being said they clearly are pushing the smaller units to get this done.

That comment about the garage is interesting. I am not an expert, but if the developers can find some reason to have the building 'condemned' for structural faults, would that give them an option to throw out the rent controlled tenants?

Although I would be surprised if all of a sudden structural faults would emerge ... that building has been there for 50 years and it's not built on a swamp.

~100 years.

I haven't gotten over there but the prices are NUTS. It's a fabulous, romantic building but currently quite funky for those aspirational prices, no?

water123: unstable? I don't know but it takes a special kind of person to go into the diamond business in Angola. And he called Putin a "wonderful leader."

Um, right...

And common charges for over $1/foot with absolutely no amenities is fairly high. Taxes aren't listed but no abatement so carry isn't cheap.

There's no need to be shocked over total lack of contracts. Who wants in to this future disaster? Best case, your money is tied up until they miss the condo declaration deadline and worst case is you actually have to close and end up in a rental building or watch a developer default or dump inventory. None of the choices are pretty.

You have to have the balls of a blood diamond dealer to go into contract in that building. It's a pity as it truly is a beautiful structure with wonderful bones in a great location. Though facing 79th and Broadway can be noisy. I prefer the 78th and West End side...

the floorplans are very funky, and not typical at al of apartments people consider when they are paying 2k a foot, esp these days

OldWest - While I am no expert, calling the man unstable because of a successful relationship/investment in a third world country seems a bit much. Are the leaders of Exxon/BP and all those who have invested in Chad, Angola, etc all unstable (and almost all have been accused of human rights crimes - shocker there!)? Unstable is rather harsh. Perhaps he is a bit more savvy/successful then you and I who are posting on a real estate website mid-day...

Also this from Obama in a DJ article yesterday "I am aware of the extraordinary work you have done as president in previous years and in your current role as prime minister," Obama told Putin at his residence."

Are the common charges high? Maybe, but compare it to prime 5th/Park ave - of which most buildings do not have a gym or a parking garage - Apthorp is cheaper. Granted Bway/79th is not Fifth/75th, but the building is as grand as they come.

Granted I am not surprised they aren't sold out - but for no one to take a risk - I'm just surprised. Maybe I am naive.

Most people with the kind of money this building is asking got to have a lot of money by not making silly choices. The economics and circumstances surrounding this project make it a silly choice currently. The market is speaking. I for one am not surprised. You want to ask people to part with these kinds of dollars you'd best have your house in order and good answers to the questions about how it is all going to work. That's not the case here.

water123: Unstable is fighting with your partner about which denomination of rabbi will hear your case.

Also, I don't buy an apartment from Exxon or BP. They don't hold the other 85% of the unsold inventory -- assuming they get 15% sold.

And Obama sucking up to Putin isn't really the same thing.

And if you call investing in Angola diamonds, "investment in a third world country," you are being naive. This isn't building a water plant in Botswana. It's a little more hard core than that.

And grand is nice. Location is still king. Fifth, CPW, and Park are not Broadway and 79th. Relative, the common charges are high. But even if they were not, this pig still wouldn't sell.

The risks for any sane buyer are just too great. Why bother when there are great apartments for $1,300/ft on Park, Fifth, and CPW. You can't evaluate the Apthorp in a vacuum. Throw in the incredible risk of getting stuck in a rental building or worse and everyone is saying, "pass."

The proof is in the pudding. These guys would be trumpeting a contract signed like it was the second coming...

Cant disagree with this: "The proof is in the pudding. These guys would be trumpeting a contract signed like it was the second coming..."

Also I don't know what Church (or even religion) you are a part of, but there isn't anything wrong with wanted clergy from your denomination. I think I would want the same thing.

OK, you can talk all you want about the "stability" of the partners, or whatever, but it's 100% certain that they are fighting with eachother. So Let's say you sign a contract and they get their 15% and close. Do you want to be in a building where 85% of the unit ownership is playing "Clash of the Titans"?

Leviev isn't the unstable one. It's the other half of the ownership equation. I would not want to be subject to the whims of their ownership indefinitely, as they can control the board for a long time. The condo fees might not appear high to some, but they will skyrocket. Beautiful building, but not worth the gamble with amateur, thin-skinned developers at the helm.

So I spent an hour at the Apthorp today and it was clear that nothing's going to happen until the Attorney General either approves or disapproves this plan. Given the pricing, my guess is that they will fail and it will sit for another year. My guess is that Leviev will get pushed out, ownership of the Developer will be rationalized and the game will start again.

On the subject of maintenance, they have bundled common area charges and real estate taxes. Crafty of them as real estate taxes are based on the building being rent controlled and not a condo. They will go up immediately.

Anyone who agrees to buy at these prices is crazy.

What's the right price for these 25 units, half the current asking price with the apartments having been put into first class condition. The only way out for the investor is a long term exit strategy based on great owners.

The prices seem cheap to me. If it were downtown, these wouldn't be "overpriced".

LOL, how come buildings on the "fringe" W. Chelsea sell higher psf than these landmark buildings on the UWS/UES.

How about this latest news?

http://www.nydailynews.com/gossip/2009/07/12/2009-07-12_brad_pitt_and_angelina_jolie_looking_for_new_york_digs_including_apthorp.html

I love that the Elliman represntative says at the end that there re currently "12 to 15 unties in negotiation".
Ya right.
They will be signed later this week Im sure
Broker scum

When Brad and Angelina moves in, the sales will pick up.

Oh wonderboy, still playing the "cheap" card. Then why don't you pick one up? Volunteer ro be the first contract signed at the Apthorp.

You still just can;t admit the product is way over-priced. It is what it is. And where it is. Those layouts aren't changing. Someone dropping $5m on a "new" apartment these days really wants a 5 fixture bathroom.

At $1,000/ft they'd probably get some buyers but they'd lose a bundle. In the end, the market dictates pricing and right now the market is dictating that this crap is over priced. Everyone can see that but you, the sponsors, and the sales and marketing team which is spending lots of developer cash every week on ads. And even they probably know this is over-priced.

OldWest , there are many buildings downtown selling for 2X ppsf of Apthorp.

I was simply asking why buildings downtown are worth much more.

There are plenty of buildings on the UES and UWS that sell for lots more than 2x ppsf of the Apthorp: San Remo, 15 CPW, Beresford, 535 WEA, TWC, on the west side...

it's a dumb question. Especially for you. Straw man.

Better views, better layouts, better buildings, better financials, better locations, better...

And there are plenty of buildings selling for much less than the Apthorp...

You want to compare the Apthorp to 740 Park or to 20 Pine? Neither is appropriate.

The Chelsea Mercantile averages $1,300/ft ask right now and the tax abatement is still sweet and the building has actual amenities.

I see a real two bedroom with a 5 fixture bath at CM for $1.9m. The cheapest 2BD at Apthorp is $3m and with anything resembling a decent layout is $4.5m. Apthorp layouts have lots of wasted space for sale. How about the price per usuable square feet. Who needs a 700 sq ft foyer in a 2 bedroom facing a bus stop?

Your question is stupid. Ask why the Apthorp isn't selling AT ALL. You seem to believe it's such a bargain.

"Ilove that the Elliman represntative says at the end that there re currently "12 to 15 unties in negotiation".
Ya right.
They will be signed later this week Im sure
Broker scum"

they are not lying. They have offers of $1,000 PSF from 15 buyers, and they said "You'll have to come up to $2,000 PSF pr we won't go any further". So they are "in negotiations" with 15 buyers. {insert joke about the guy who offers the girl $1 million to sleep with him at bar here}

Is it just me or does anyone else see the resemblance: wonderboy = desgarcons = Prada_Addict ???

It's just you.

Any progress on how the plan is going? They are doing all they can to market the celebs that are looking at the place. Anyone have any idea if they are close to the 25 apts or whatever they need to convert? Also, what would be a reasonable bid if someone was going to go in and buy a block of apartments that might get them to their goal? Or better question, what do people think is the lowest amount the building will accept ($/sq ft) if they know its the difference between them getting to the alloted number of sales vs not?

what would be a reasonable bid if someone was going to go in and buy a block of apartments that might get them to their goal? Or better question, what do people think is the lowest amount the building will accept ($/sq ft) if they know its the difference between them getting to the alloted number of sales vs not?

right now the block of apts to get them to their goal would be 25. so yeah, you could probably get a great discount and become a partner in a nightmare. if they don't make their plan, can't see that they could rent for a year till they refile. it is chaos over there - agents don't have any idea on what the floorplans actually are. They literally cannot tell you if certain apts are configured for one or two or three bedrooms. But they would accept a bid on any configuration. And, it would take them a year to get those apts to rentable condition. The floors and walls are deteriorating in front of your eyes. I wanted to wear a hard hat on the tour.

They are planning a gym and "spa" but you can't see it because it doesn't exist and they can't even show you plans cause they probably don't exist either. Plus Elliman got in big trouble throwing around those star names like Baldwin but I see they are still up to those tricks -- they are desperate enough to think that living next to stars would justify an extremely risky investment with an unstable and litigious board. And, Brangelina might have the protection of the courtyard buy why would they buy from developers that are shamelessly capitalizing on their names. They might be able to 'give' apts to stars to jump start a few sales....... But why would you want to spend that kind of money to wade thru papparazzi and press every night when you come home. Ask the owners that shared residence quarters with Bernie Maddoff about what a wonderful experience that is.

when they don't make their plan, i am sure the prices next year will be significantly lower.

from wikipedia:

"A white elephant is a valuable possession of which its owner cannot dispose and whose cost (particularly cost of upkeep) is out of proportion to its usefulness."

ok, but there is a price for everything, so at what price per sq foot are people willing to take the risk in a building that does have to be considered a landmark? 600? 800?

re-read the definition above.

Can anyone confirm: I was told that in order for the plan to become effective 15% of apt's must be sold AND occupied. Is this correct? If so, why would one investor buying a block of apt's help?

my understanding is that they don't have to be occupied only sold. they are in no condition to be occupied by offering plan expiration in sept.
but if they were selling, wouldn't they announce so as to spur more interest. not much time left till the partners will be looking to reflect, refile and regurgitate the venom.

this should be a spectacular flame-out. equity gets wiped out, lenders take over - hand off to new managers/ owners who need cash flow quickly =s rental (everything old is new and again) - it wil happen slo mo for awhile, so if you want to live there, wait six to eighteen months and be prepared to rent.

I took a look at a couple units in the building. The building is clearly impressive and with the exception the Beresford I would argue that it is the most substantial piece of architecture on the UWS.

The problems with the building are well chronicled above so I will offer what new information I can provide.

Broker indicated those willing to purchase units and renovate themselves there would be a substantial discount offered to the listing price. Ammenities were hardly mentioned as the broker seemed to admit it was not going to happen anytime soon.

The real views in the building seem to be at floors five and lower that face into the courtyard. Get higher then that and the views dissapear.

The biggest hurdle to me in putting in the offer is that even with all of the available units sold the sponsor is still going to control the condo board as they will retain voter powers on the rent stabalized units.

Broker told me they had units in contract, which I had a tough time believing.

I dont think they are going to get the necessary 25 units under contract by their September deadline. Will be interesting to see what happens.

views? of the courtyard? what about the san remo? what about 175 rsd? both of those buildings have gorgeous apartments many with real views and a functioning corporation. the apthorp fits the old cliche about never buying a law suit. buying there at any price close to the reduced asking is nuts and i'm not sure that buying there at any price isn't nuts.

I would wager that there is not a licensed attorney in NYC who would green-light a purchase in the Apthorp at this time given the disarray and uncertainty surrounding the project. CC is absolutely dead-on: don't voluntarily walk head-long into litigation if you can do anything at all to avoid it.

I love architecture so a courtyard view sounds attractive to me but buying even one unit in there right now sounds crazy; more than that & I'd think you're a masochist like our friend Rock who seems determined to shoot himself in the foot. Also, should some celebrities buy in there, possible though probably not likely, some can be IMPOSSIBLE. Can you imagine the Olson twins or Mr. Combs or Brangelina hijacking that courtyard? Another reason to repent your foolishness. I'd be thrilled to come over for a drink, though.

i was just trying to start a reasonable conversation about the risk/reward...its not that hard to say that anything close to the offer doesnt make sense...but if someone gave you a chance at 500/sq foot you wouldnt consider it? Yes there is a lot of risk, but saying "it's so scary i wouldnt even take a shot if they handed it to me for nothing" seems like an unreasonable view...i'm as big a real estate bear as anyone, but it doesnt mean we ccant make an attempt to price the risk distribution properly...

i think there are probably several investors trying to figure out the same thing, so I'm sure it would not be as low as 500 because it might get them to the plan but it would taint all future sales. I bet if you bought a block and included many of the apts that do not face the courtyard, and took them with out the renovation (but be sure to get the central air installed by them) they would accept a low offer. However it would have to be, as you say, a block large enough to get them to plan. A block of 10 apts, no reno except central air? It might get them to plan so they would have to consider a low offer. Have no idea what that would be however - less than 50% of the excessive ask? But you would have to get a clause to match lowest buyer because if they have 24 sold the day before the plan needs to be filed, a 25th buyer might get the deal of a lifetime.

FYI: A bulk buyer counts once (at most) toward the required 15%. In a lower-profile conversion, it might be possible to disguise a bulk transaction with straw men. Not here. The AG and the Tenants' attorneys will be all over those contracts looking for ANYTHING suspicious.

Bulk sales come into play after a conversion is effective.

I called a friend a few weeks ago who specialize in real estate for hotels,office, luxuriuous services apartment. Just to give you an idea, he is an international business man with many connections who just arrange for monuments, and 5* hotels to be bought by investors who want to redevelop them. So this guy is not foreign to big projects, and know how to find investors for risky projects. I told him about the Apthorp, he was very interested... for 24 hours. He put his European team on it, and it took them a day to understand that Anglo Irish was the lender and is a bank in huge difficulty, that the sponsor is facing huge problems....Basically I don't remember how many arguments he had, but he will not show it to any single investor how crazy for return this one would be. Just my two pennies to avoid a regular person like me to make a very expensive mistake. BTW WHen I first spoke about it, his idea was to buy the half or the whole building, so he had in mind huge huge discount.

"FYI: A bulk buyer counts once (at most) toward the required 15%. In a lower-profile conversion, it might be possible to disguise a bulk transaction with straw men. Not here. The AG and the Tenants' attorneys will be all over those contracts looking for ANYTHING suspicious.

Bulk sales come into play after a conversion is effective."

Pretty sure it would count as ZERO. The 15% I'm pretty sure has to be someone who intends to occupy the unit.

http://therealdeal.com/newyork/articles/lenz-takes-over-sales-at-apthorp-bumping-off-elliman-colleague

Well, they are claiming 17 apts are in contract.

The 17 units thing isn't a quote. Not that it would matter much if it were. Why wouldn't they update the Street Easy listings?

Doesn't Elliman have a agreement with OLR to update their listings in a timely manner?

I smell something fishy!

Ah, the stink of reality. According to the Times article here http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/02/realestate/02deal3.html?_r=1&ref=realestate

it's actually 11 units in contract and those are almost all as is.

With the desperation showing to get to the magical 25 units, one has to wonder what happens then? Those comps will not be pretty going forward.

Poor Dolly. She is so busy her voicemail is full.

I think they found a diamond mine under the building... raising prices on units by 40%!

This is a tough building to price. It's very unique. It's in a great area, is gated, and has history. Needs more amenities for my taste, but the buyers may prize what is offered.

more amenities? like hot and cold running water?