What's a good range for Maintenance Per Sq Ft?

For coops, $1 to $1.25 per square foot are standard. It will be higher if there is outdoor space (about $0.50 per external SF.) Personally once you get above $1.5/SF, I start to lose interest unless there is something spectacular about the building and amenities. Make sure you ask about special assessments and frequency and magnitude of maintenance increases. Also some buildings include electric, cable and/or gas in the maintenance.

>>For coops, $1 to $1.25 per square foot are standard.<<

Not anymore. The old $1 to 1 rule has gone the way of the dinosaur as costs to maintain buildings have steadily risen. It's usually closer to $1.50 per (and sometimes even more) in well-run, full-service co-ops these days.

Squid is right. $1.25/per square foot is now on the low side these days, and more often found in walk-up buildings without elevators or doormen.

1.25 - 1.50 new standard for non-doorman, and 1.50 - 2.00 for doorman. Taxes are up 45% over the past 2 years, water is up 50%, as is everything else. 1, maybe if it's a decrepit walk-up with no staff and no amenities.

Thank you for all of the input. So I can go with about $1.50 for Co-Ops. What about Condos? We are looking at both.

My large 200 unit prewar doorman elevator coop is well-run, not penny pinching, but careful with spending and I'm at $1.71psf now. Note that maintenance is a rate PER SHARE, and share allocation will rise by floor for example. So I'm paying more maint psf than the same unit on a lower floor. Take this into account when you are comparing units.

I agree with Squid and Matt, as well. I think if you can get it around $1.60/sf or less that would be great.

Also be sure to have your lawyer look into the building's capital expenses history (how recently the roof was replaced, new windows were purchased, etc.). I personally know of one white-glove doorman building that's a financial ticking time bomb because its two elevators -- original from when the building was built in the '60s -- are being held together by duct tape and twist-ties. When they go, it'll be an immediate multi-million dollar expense -- and a likely $1/square foot ADDITIONAL assessment for each shareholder until they're paid off.

I'm a little confused. I thought kkfred's original post was asking about sale prices per square foot, not maintenance costs. I'm interested in the sales per square foot opinions also.

Can you recommend an attorney who will review the building's capital expense history (and know what else to look for without me having to tell him). I get the sense that most attorneys just make sure the paper work is in order and that there are no glaring obvious problems discernable from the material that they are given. Thanks.

Every attorney is required to do "due diligence" for their clients in researching the property. That is where they should find the capital expense history.

Re: I'm a little confused.

Refer to the thread title

Oops. thanks.

I have a big spreadsheet of over 100 UES 2 and 3-bedrooms with a median price of $1.6m and the average maintenance / square foot is 1.7. Note that many but not all of them list real square footage, not the claimed square footage BS.

You must look at the AMENITIES and building types before judging if the maintenance/CC are too high. e.g., $2pf can be a STEAL if the bldg. is newer, in good financial shape, and has amenities like a pool, lounge, and (of course) concierge.

By contrast, what we are seeing these days are many of the no-frills coops, with no amenities whatsoever with the exception of grumpy security guards (notice how I didn't call them concierge)charging maintenance fees in the $1.75 (low) to $2.50 (high) range.

This amount is too high from my perspective (given the complete lack of amenities), but I may find the same amount desirable, if the bldg. provides appropriate amenities. Also, Wrst34th is correct--the higher the floor, the higher the maintenance (or CC, for that matter).

crescent, if you use the real square footage instead of the listed one, which tends to be 15-30% higher, then $1.5 psf in maintenance will have to be the lowest, for like a low-floor, part-time doorman kind of building. There's a few that have minimal underlying mortgages and really manage to be around $1.2 psf but those are few and far between and you pay a premium for them.

Yes, co-op maintenance costs are pegged to number of shares in the unit, and higher floors have more shares. You will likely see a significant difference between the maintenance charges for a 3rd floor apartment and those of a 10th floor apartment, for example.

^^^ I should have added 'in the same line'.

nyc212 - doormen are (of course) not concierge. They primarily consider their role as a security position (notice how I didn't call them concierge). That's like saying the porter isn't good because he cannot fix the elevator. They are entirely different jobs with entirely different responsibilities.

So maintenance costs at least $1.25 /sq ft, thats $1,250 for a 1000 sq ft coop. That translates to $15k per yr. And don't these costs trend upwards each year? What's the norm, 4% roughly?

This doesn't include taxes, utilities, holiday tips to staff. It seems like the more math I do, the more attractive renting is. A typical 1000 sq ft, 2 bedroom probably rents around $3500-$4500 per month versus ownership costs of roughly $6000/month (assuming 15k per yr in maintenance)

Is there a standard range for costs relating to condos, or are they in the same ball park?

Re: $2pf can be a STEAL if the bldg. is newer, in good financial shape, and has amenities like a pool, lounge, and (of course) concierge.

Is it just me, or is there an entireley different world of buildings inhabited by people unlike any I know, or have known, in my 20 years in Manhattan?

In my world, your building has a doorman, and his name is Carlos, or Frankie, and he sits behind a desk he says hello and takes your packages, and maybe comments on how hot the new chick in 4A is. And your building has a quiet lobby and a laundry room in the basement, and elevators that work, and your trash gets removed from your floor's trashroom every day. And if the boiler works, and the bricks arent falling off the building, and there arent any pipes bursting, then life is good!

And your coop board meetings are pretty uneventful, with perhaps two people arguing over what color the new awning should be. And the reserve fund doesnt get raided, and the underlying building mortgage is reasonable, and no retarded new resident suddenly wants to do a million dollar gut reno on the lobby.

This is the world I inhabit. And all my many NYC friends too. The world of quiet prewar and post war coops. We don't have pools, and lounges, and "concierges" (are they named Pierre or Serge or something?). And we don't have 421 tax abatements (we get STAR credits! :-)

And WE pay about $1.75 per share in maintenance.

Make that $1.75 psf. not share

a_g: In the coop world, your maintenance includes your taxes. So as a coop owner, you never pay a property tax bill, your management company does. In the condo world, you pay your own property taxes and they are listed separately from the maint in property listings. To compare the two you need to add condo taxes to condo maint. And recognize that many new condos have tax abatements so the current taxes are less than future (normal) taxes.

Thanks 34, what about increases in maintenance, what's a reasonable increase each yr?

>>So maintenance costs at least $1.25 /sq ft, thats $1,250 for a 1000 sq ft coop. That translates to $15k per yr. And don't these costs trend upwards each year? What's the norm, 4% roughly?

This doesn't include taxes, utilities, holiday tips to staff.<<

As West correctly points out, property tax is included in your co-op maintenance. Plus, a percentage of the maintenance is tax deductible (try deducting ANY part of your rent...). As for utilities, yes--in most co-ops you pay for electric/gas (with a few exceptions here and there). But the same is true with rentals. As for holiday tips to staff? Sure, a fully-staffed co-op will take a bite out of your wallet come Christmas time. But you're also gonna be shelling out in a rental--super, doormen (if you have them), handymen...

> crescent, if you use the real square footage instead of the listed one, which tends to be 15-30% higher, then $1.5 psf in maintenance will have to be the lowest, for like a low-floor, part-time doorman kind of building. There's a few that have minimal underlying mortgages and really manage to be around $1.2 psf but those are few and far between and you pay a premium for them.

I agree with you directionally but it doesn't look as dire as you make it seem. I see plenty here on my spreadsheet at 1.2-1.3x and my target area is generally 64th - 86th, 2nd - Madison. Maybe some haven't been updated as they are 2008 listings; some certainly have a good retail situation on the ground floor.

The correlation between this ratio and price/sf is -0.06. Negative, yes, to your point about the price being high but pretty close to being random. I don't mind paying a higher price/sf for a lower maint. In theory you could get the premium back in the eventual sale; you'll never get the maint back.

crescent, I totally agree. If I had the funds I would totally go with low maint. at a higher price because that speaks of a well managed building and because you can recoup that in a sale and also, if high inflation kicks in, your 30-year fixed payments feel less like a burden, whereas maint. increases at pace or slightly (or not so slightly) above, so it's always an advantage to have it be a smaller percentage of your carrying costs.

Maintenance is the ground zero of the high NY cost of living concept. High maintenance is the primary factor fouling up buy vs rent calculations, esp at the high-end. It offends any concept of value. Any time I tell people not from New York that carry costs even exceed $1 per square foot per month, they drop their jaws.

waverly says:
>nyc212 - doormen are (of course) not concierge. They primarily consider their role as a security
>position (notice how I didn't call them concierge). That's like saying the porter isn't good because
>he cannot fix the elevator. They are entirely different jobs with entirely different responsibilities.

Hmmm. Thanks for taking the time to type that up, but I am not sure if you are getting my point. My bldg has a separate concierge, as do many new developments (I recently saw such an arrangement at 88 Greenwich), and we pay PREMIUM for that. No one is telling the doormen to serve as concierge--it's just that WE PAY MORE for this extra amenity.

Life is too short. Don't get offended when there is no reason to be.

crescent22, I totally agree with you can one justify paying these outrageous maintenance fees if you consider the property taxes outside of the boroughs?

I meant to say: Can't you justify paying high maintenance given that the other option would be paying huge taxes outside the city, in places like Jersey, LI, Westchester, etc.

I don't have perspective on that - I have no idea what property tax rates look like in the suburbs plus it is difficult to compare single-family homes to apartments. Perhaps you could give some insight.

I think if you compare a million dollar apt in manhattan and a million dollar home in the burbs maintenance (which incorporates taxes) would be comprable. I don't have a perspective of how tax deductions work for both so I can't really provide valuable insight. But there are maintenance costs with owning a home on top of taxes.

clarification: city maintenance(& taxes) would be comprable to taxes in the burbs.

Someone above suggested that your attorney will be able to tell about the building's capital needs. Be careful here. Many attorneys are lazy and just concentrate on the paperwork. If I was a buyer, I would read the corporate minutes myself. These minutes will give insight into building's problems, if any. Things to worry about-pointing projects, need for new windows, new elevators, replacing plumbing risers, etc. You can also speak to the individual who manages the building at the management company. Ask her/him if there are any problems. There is also an association of NY coops which provides statistics on bldg. maintenance.

"Someone above suggested that your attorney will be able to tell about the building's capital needs. Be careful here. Many attorneys are lazy and just concentrate on the paperwork."

agreed. And how many accounting courses does it take to graduate from Law School? Even if they aren't lazy, who says they are experts in financials?

Whats the best source for tracking co-op maintenance/condo monthlies per square foot?

Whats average at this point?

http://www.millersamuel.com/charts/manhattan-hoa-monthly-cost-per-sq-ft-based-on-sales-during-each-quarter/

Closer to $2 a sqft these days, thanks to Real Estate taxes.

There are a lot of factors that affect maintenance, including building debt and services. We're paying $0.84/square foot.

"There are a lot of factors that affect maintenance, including building debt and services. We're paying $0.84/square foot."

You're right, I was talking about co-ops with doormen (which I assumed the OP was talking about looking at 1.4M apartments.) I've never heard of a co-op with $0.84 a sqft for a doorman building. Most seem closer to $2, particularly if they have no retail income.

What type of building are you in??

No doorman. No elevator.

Mixed benefit. But those writing these tiny monthly maintenance checks are almost a pleasure!

>NYCMatt - Right, basically no services.
Do you have to lug your trash downstairs to the bins on the sidewalk?

No. We have to lug our trash down to the bins in the back courtyard. The super sorts it, bundles it, and drags it out to the sidewalk.

No-doorman also changes the rental buildings the city uses as comps to set your taxes, so you get a tax saving as well as a payroll saving.

Last time I checked the effect of our co-op having seven or eight guys instead of one or two, it came to $500 per month.

I do like having a doorman, except when thinking about what it costs.

Yeah. Now that I have my own office, I just have all my deliveries sent there.

Looks like matt is king of a pretty small sultanate.

And the super, the one staff member of Matt's building, is not allowed, by Matt, the Maharajah of Washinton Heights, to accept Christmas tips.

Maharani

Hey Matt, now I see why you pay so little maintenance. But I think when people talk about Manhattan co-ops they're thinking 24 hour doormen, handymen, porters, live-in supers, etc.

If you're happy with lesser services then you can save lots of money, more power to you.

It's definitely a lifestyle issue.

Another big plus of having a doorman is that they keep the riffraff out. I'm sick of having to kick out shysters who manage to slip in, going door to door peddling their scams.

From the Miller Samuel website, it says co-ops and condos are both around $1.80 per sq ft. If you start searching Streeteasy you will find in nicer areas with a lot of amenities, it can cost over $2.00 per sq ft fairly easily. And in these exact same neighborhoods, you can often rent for $5.00 per sq ft with the same amenities.

So when you buy you are essentially getting a profit of $3.00 per sq ft (obviously less with renovations over a 30 yr period). Now the purchase price in these nice areas for those buildings is around $1,500-2k+ per sq foot. Even at $1,500 per foot, with a profit of $36 per sq ft annually, you are getting a 2.4% cap rate. Buy at $2k per sq ft, you are getting a 1.8% cap rate. Given that both the rent and the co-op/condo fees as well as your property will all rise approximately at the rate of inflation (not entirely true but in the long-term is fairly accurate), and given that the above calculations account for $0 in transaction fees or maintenance fees, you have quite a bubble in the works currently.