space versus incredible view - what's more important?

Which is better, chocolate or vanilla?

I've lived in both - currently have the incredible view and could live without it for more space.

moved from 1700sqf view to 3000sqf space. the openness of the view did not provide a sense of space as much as the real space. The illusion did not work for us. we needed the real thing.

So a different pair of choices: space versus condition (provided that you don't have the money to renovate and make the roomier apt. mint condition) For the same price, would you rather have a 1100 sqft apt in mint and up-to-date condition or a 1400 one where kitchens and bath date back to the 70s and hardwoord floors are scratched, if you don't have the money to reno at all?

Space > View

A lot depends on your specific needs. If you're a family with young kids, for example, then the space will become more and more important as they get older. A view is great but won't help store your clothes or house your children.

That said, an amazing view adds visual space to an apartment, and can make the space seem 'happier' and more serene. Personally, I'd rather have a decent-sized apartment with a gorgeous view than a cavernous place that looks into brick walls.

One thing to keep in mind--you will pay a premium for certain types of view (Central Park or river, for example) while other, more readily available views like open-city tend to command less.

while we're having fun: which view from medium high floor 10-14 would you prefer? CP, Hudson or East River?

Are you talking no view (ie dark and cave-like) or great natural light but no real view?

CP, Hudson, East - in that order but by small margins.

I'd choose space over view as long as the apartment gets good light. Otherwise, I'd probably keep looking for something that has both qualities.

It depends on your nees. Assuming your lifestyle can handle it, I would probably go for the view and use Manhattan Mini Storage.

As long as the space had nice light, I think I would go for the space. Really depends on how much more "space" you are getting in return for giving up the view.

Space--period.

In NYC, realistic buyers often don't care about the view or the light ("I am never here during the day anyway!"), it doesn't really affect the resale values much (may shave off $10k of off an otherwise $600k apt.). In addition, with the recent invention of blue diode, estremely safe, low-cost and high-effiency lighting options that emulate sunlight are on their way (the current LED technology isn't just there yet, but give them 5 years).

Space, on the other hand, cannot be expanded, and you are stuck w/ what you got. There is nothing I hate more than having to transport things from/to storage...

Depends on how much light & noise comes with the space. I would go for space & good light & some street noise over incredible views.

location, location, location.

But I didn't go that route: I totally love having a balcony with magnificent Hudson, etc., views, even if it means a smallish apartment and throwing away useless shit that I refuse to pay storage fees for ... however, it's in Harlem, which isn't always where I want to be. And it's in a part of Harlem that's always where I don't want to be.

jasonkyle, give us more info on the two places. How's the kitchen in the smaller place? Good configuration for the small place, or tricky? Does the larger place buy you another room? Do you have/want houseguests much?

Location, triple triple square. But your costs will stay fixed for a looong time, which is nice, no?

Confession: I am a pack rat. I still have "memory" t-shirts from 1st year college. So, don't ask me about space.

Let there be Light and Incredible Views. I'll trade a bit of space anyday for not having to turn on the TV to NY1 to figure out even if it's raining or shining. Or looking at bricks, or being on public display for neighbors and passerby to see. Having to close the blinds because of snoops (Remember Laverne and Shirley's apartment?) I've had a couple of "Incredible View" apartments and
seeing a pleasent sunset, evening a stupendous ligting storm like we had 2 nights ago, feeling like you can jump and touch the planes heading to/from Laguardia. It was always a great decompress coming from a hard day's work and every now and then you get the extras - fireworks, eclipses, manhattanhenge, etc.

CC--Hudson, hands down.

One last thing to keep in mind re: views--they can be snatched away. Unless you're looking at a place directly on CP, or Riverside Drive, for example, you cannot be guaranteed your view will not one day be blocked by new buildings. Think of the poor fools who had their gorgeous river views obliterated by Trump's disgusting "Riverside Blvd" turds.

And speaking of Trump, wasn't he making noise a few years ago about building out over the West Side Highway someday? Just imagine the horror that would inflict on those grand old apartments with sweeping river views? I shudder to think...

space, as long as there is light. high ceilings. can't stand low ceilings.

300 sqft isn't a "bit of space".

City view! Maybe because I'm originally from NJ, but looking at trees & grass isn't so exotic to me, and looking at NJ (which is what "Hudson view" really means) kind of misses the point.

wow thanks everyone!!! the specifics are 1200 square foot 2 bedroom really high ceilings, fantastic views versus 1500 square foot 2 bedroom, looks at another building across the way in the back but almost clears it so it would probably get ok light most of the time. we have a great view apartment now (rental) that is 1100 square feet and already have two storage spaces so i am leaning toward the space. the view is amazing and it is mostly hudson but it is certainly not guaranteed forever. so in answer to the which view question i'd go hudson, cpw or any other nice park really, then east side. they are both new buildings and the offers they are supposedly willing to accept are pretty far off peak pricing. something in me is of course saying i should hold out for the apartment that has both and might even be cheaper in a few months but i am kind of over the searching.

they are also both sold enough percentage wise that getting financing isn't an issue and to 30yrs - vanilla

1,200 w/views for sure.

Yeah, I'd go 1200 w/views and really high ceilings also. And throw away all that stuff in storage!
What neighborhood?

how do they flow? is the 1200 a well designed 1200? does the 1500 waste space? closets, design?

i usually go for space, but a well-designed 1200 with high ceilings and a view might be the better option in my book. is the price psf roughly the same?

With high ceilings in the smaller unit I am leaning towards the "view" instead of the "space". So is it:

"Space"
----------
01. 1,500 sqft
02. No view
03. Low-ceilings (7'8"ish?, 8'ish, 9'ish)

"View"
----------
01. 1,200 sqft
02. View
03. High-ceilings (10'ish?, 11'ish?, 12'ish or >?)

I'd take the smaller unit if the ceilings are over 12'.

i think they said the ceilings were 11 at the 1200 and 9 at the 1500. the units are the same price basically since one is on the highest floor. so if you go by price per square foot the larger unit is a better buy. oddly the flow is very similar. so many of the newer buildings have the same exact 2 bedroom layout. the only difference is the 1200 has split bedrooms and 1500 has them 2 in a row.

I would choose both, how's that?

space

with kids? space, space, space!!!

How much stuff do you have? When I was moving a lot and had most of my things in storage it was all about the view. Now I need a minimum amount of space for all the stuff.

Tell them both to give you their lowest prices and you will select the one that you want.

Space but if it's brick wall than I couldn't do it. Has to have light.

1,200 w views.

jasonkyle - there has to be a significant difference in the space/layout or you wouldn't think twice; you'd take the one with the views. so, is it that the living space in the 1200 seems just a little too small? where is the extra 300 sq/ft in the larger unit (living space or wasted spaces, as aboutready mentioned)? what is giving you pause about the 1200 w/ view?

the 1200 leaves us no room to grow i guess. you really feel the extra space in the other place. it's more usable. definitely livable space that you notice.

if by "room to grow" you mean kids and if the difference in livable space is noticeable (as you said, you can feel it), i would take the larger apartment.

Oh hi Jason, I thought you already bought.

Well, anyway, it sounds like you are considering the Penthouse 6 at the Caledonia http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/396460-condo-450-west-17th-street-chelsea-new-york

Which is the other one?

Which one has nicer sinks, we know the sinks are really important to you.

Personally I'd go with the view and higher ceilings over the extra space. Also, the split bedroom layout will work out better.

Good luck and hugs and kisses. Please let us know which one you pick.

or, if you plan on becoming morbidly obese, you might want the extra space as well. either way, you'll need room for the growth.

there is something very luxurious about space in Manhattan. I know what JK is saying when he talks about the "feel" of the apartment. If the view is not protected, and as the larger apt is a better deal per sf, as long as all other things are relatively equal, i would go for the larger unit.

food for thought: space always fills up...apartment, garage, etc. protected view never gets boring.

absolutely. i would take "feel" over stated sq/ft anyday.

I don't know cc. A view can be taken for granted over time. Doing a good reorganization every couple of years can reinvent your space. uwsmom, doesn't it seem crazy, sometimes, how we cram ourselves into these small spaces? in other areas of the world, of course, our living situations would often be considered ample. but in the US NYC just seems insane.

the view is the one thing about ny that we will miss.

that's not too bad then. just missing a view. but i will confess i'm not a big view person, so my POV is colored by that. obviously JK isn't completely overwhelmed by the view issue or he wouldn't have this conflict.

i wonder what i'm going to miss when i finally get out of here.

ar: it gives me pause every day. our new apartment cannot come soon enough!

>>Tell them both to give you their lowest prices and you will select the one that you want.<<

Come on, Waverly.

"i wonder what i'm going to miss when i finally get out of here."

Being able to make one phone call at 3AM and have a roll of toilet paper and a pack of cigarettes delivered in 15 minutes.

I grew up in an apartment with an open cityscape view (we watched the towers go up, my mother watched them come down in real time) and brilliant sunshine I never appreciated. I then moved into "the cave", a first floor rear apartment where artifical light was required 24/7. It was great when I was in my 20something party all night phase but as I grew up, it began to be downright dismal and depressing (but remained ridiculously cheap and stabilized). When it finally came time to move to a "grown up" place I put a premium, on LIGHT, LIGHT, LIGHT. There is a difference between light and view and if you are used to light, don't even consider giving it up. If however, the larger apartment offers sufficient light to support health (mental and otherwise) and the difference in sq ft translates to real liveable/usable space...I would advise going for the larger place. Incredible views are seductive, but assuming you are past the perpetually seductive phase of your relationship...space is going to more valuable.

alanhart -- I am puzzled by your comment:

however, it's in Harlem, which isn't always where I want to be. And it's in a part of Harlem that's always where I don't want to be.

For some reason, from past posts, I thought you liked living in Harlem and in the area you are in now. Has something changed?

by room for growth i really just meant that we seem to acquire more and more stuff each year. no plans for kids just yet. although we do have some adorable little kittens. thanks for all your input. i think space is gonna win out for us in the end.

I always wondered if jasonkyle and kylewest had any relation, so I guess not if jasonkyle is considering the Caledonia.

i'm no kylewest. he knows WAY more than me about the village. especially all those fifth avenue buildings. i do love his posts though. i didn't say anything about the caledonia did i? i didn't even specify a hood. i am not going to be more specific. this was more a generic question about space versus view for all the people who post on here since i enjoy reading many of them and their thoughts.

uh, didn't you list your apartment at the Caledonia above?

no i did not. i believe someone else tried to guess it.

"i didn't even specify a hood."

It's interesting that you say that, because the premium for certain views changes in different neighborhoods. Think about what a premium would be for a prewar 2BR in the Village with views? There are SOOOO few of them compared to other areas. ("especially all those fifth avenue buildings. ").

30yrs correct - protected Village views for instance are prime

jasonkyle, yes, someone tried to guess it and posted the link, but it seems to fit just about everything you said althoug you price it. "Well, anyway, it sounds like you are considering the Penthouse 6 at the Caledonia http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/396460-condo-450-west-17th-street-chelsea-new-york"

30-years, that would be a market value for a view, not necessarily an individual's value for a view. jk's questions seem to me to be somewhere between market and personal inclination.

whoops - although you didn't price it
:)

JK, so the choice is between the incredible view and the STUFF? Is that even a choice? Stuff can be tired of/changed/thrown out and the view stays.
I say the view. From experience, the really fantastic view is something you don't get tired of.

Hey hey splaken and stakan

ar - don't you know me well enough by now to tell that I don't think questions like that are (or maybe should be) answerable? There are too many other variables, and the difference - even the percentage difference varies depending on neighborhood, type of building (often "by building"), size of unit, etc.

Example: in some areas, for buildings of a certain vintage (esp 60's buildings) floorplans change drastically once you get into 'views territory". So let's say you want a studio with a great view in a doorman building in the Village, and you find out that there aren't any because almost all the buildings stopped their studio lines once views kicked in? In a marked where prices are increasing rapidly and you had bidding wars, you might find a HUGE premium for such a thing, whereas if you were looking in that same general neighborhood for 2 - 3br new construction units for $3 million, you might find less of a percentage premium for views, because you have plenty to choose from.

would echo thoughts about view....from the day we walked into our place, it grabbed us and everyone else.

"and you find out that there aren't any because almost all the buildings stopped their studio lines once views kicked in?"

definitely noticed this.

funny thing is if the roof heights are what he said, the cubic feet might be nearly equivalent!

30yrs, dont' you know me well enough by now to tell...

hey, we're talking about one person's desire to weigh some intangibles and some not so intangibles.

you're so right. today i'd not ascribe a single value to anything. and i'd run screaming like a frightened little girl from any purchase, at least one that i had the purchasing power to cause to be. Less than $100 psf for the AIG buildings? That's different, but always the best large and/or bulk deals never hit the block for the mid to lower-high-level purchaser.

I wonder what the Goldman Sachs new building is costing total per square foot, land plus construction.
And then of course what value their old building will go for, sale or rental.

ha yeah wheres my 2 bedroom version of that aig building sale.

anyway, sorry, digress, 30yrs is correct, need to have the full details to do a comparison. Is the back of the building quiet or noisy? Where is it? What is the likelihood that the Caledonia building gets something built that obstructs the view from the Penthouse (what floor??), etc

splaken, you did see my post on the AIG building sales, no? less than $100 psf? wow, just last year class a rentals were $150ish. now about $55.

both!!!

yeah I don't know too much about actual costs for office buildings, I just thought that the comparison between price for old GS and new GS would be an interesting contrast

Can you tell us what price and how long you will live

there?

I just bought an apt with direct river views of the Hudson on RSD. I spent 1 1/2 yrs looking everywhere!!! You get used to the space, you get used to not having a closet in the bedroom (I can buy one of those) the apt is a little smaller than what I was looking for but pretty, quiet, sunny and direct river views from EVERY window in the apt won out in the end. Every time I walk into the apt I think, how lucky I am to live in NYC and have this view. Btw, one of the posts said that views dont affect the price that much maybe $10K--that is SOOOO wrong--huge effect. No dilemma here, go for the view you will smile every time you walk into your apt! Good luck, hope you get it

"In NYC, realistic buyers often don't care about the view or the light ("I am never here during the day anyway!"), it doesn't really affect the resale values much (may shave off $10k of off an otherwise $600k apt.)."

WOW. Have you ever owned RE in Manhattan? Your post screams the words LIFE LONG RENTER. Depending on the view, it can easily add $1 million to the value of the apt. I've owned RE in both Manhattan and northen NJ. My house in NJ is near the cliffs that you see from Harlem. And on streets along the edge of the cliffs, the differecne in price between houses that have a NYC view and do not have one can easily reach $750,000.

RE: View vs. Space

When chooisng between a view and space, it depends on your lifestyle. Do you have kids? Do you or your spouse work from home? Do you have a lot of furniture or perhaps a big screen tv that you cannot do without? If so, then I would choose space over a view.

***Threadjack Alert!!!***

joedavis, I meant

1. Harlem isn't really where I play, which is fine most of the time, but the commute can seem dreary and tiresome at other times (for socializing; I don't commute to a business district). The simple truth is that it IS far away -- I live 7 miles, or about a million people, from Houston Street.
2. Especially on the IRT. I think the neighborhood I heaped praise on is my old one, east of Morningside Park, where I also preferred having the IND nearby. Now I'm in Hamilton Heights, which I don't really like. But I'm very happy with the overall package of tradeoffs, which is one of the things that life in NY is all about.
3. That said, when I play "if I were fabulously wealthy, what neighborhood would I live in?", I basically implode. I would need to time travel. Maybe the UWS after a neutron bomb.

brandfordt "there?"

I liked the original question better.... ;).

even though it wasn't what i was originally discussing, the caledonia view isn't so protected if you do a little research. the chelsea market wanted to build a huge residential tower on top of their current building. i guess the community rumbled and reminded them of their zoning and they are now trying to figure out a way to do a commercial tower instead. who knows when or if it would get done but their air rights allow them to build just as high as the caledonia which would effectively block quite a bit of the view of that building. the milk studios building on 15th was also exploring building a tower on top of their existing structure. next boom and that neighborhood is going to look like 6th avenue in the 20s.

Jason I'm particularly partial to the Caledonia apartment you are looking at. Congratulations.

> Which is better, chocolate or vanilla?

I think its more about the magnitude of the differential. I say that tires are more important than anti lock breaks if its a choice of not having any tires... I might be a face man, but if its the choice between the 400 pounder or not, suddenly body is going to matter more.

How MUCH more space vs. what is the difference in views.

>columbiacounty
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would echo thoughts about view....from the day we walked into our place, it grabbed us and everyone

C0C0, are you still being grabbed by your view?

Quiet.