why there are so many liars and cheaters and bs in the New York RE markets?

The liars and cheats won't disappear but what you can do is become as informed and educated as possible to avoid getting ripped off. And whenever someone starts a sentence with "this is New Yawk..." you know the rest of the statement is nothing but b.s.

JFD, I'm sorry you have had these experiences, but they are common among some segments of brokers (there are good brokers who post often here, so please don't write them all off).

1) No, it wasn't a 2-bedroom. The usual definition is a closet and window; some also say it has to be over 100 square feet. The broker was lying. Unfortunately, there's a TON of these converted junior-4s on the market now because so many people could not afford to upgrade to a larger space.

2) No regulation. Theoretically they are supposed to be within a certain percentage, but I've never heard of any enforcement body.

3) Totally unethical. Many brokers are fighting (dirty) for survival. Walk away and make a lowball offer when they've chopped the price another 15%, or just look elsewhere.

4) As a buyer, you are the prized commodity in this market. Don't let sleazy brokers get to you. So much of this industry is being transformed by the excesses of the bubble and by the transformation of the flow of information.

"And whenever someone starts a sentence with "this is New Yawk..." you know the rest of the statement is nothing but b.s."

Well, I will say that New York has ever been a hustle kind of city, business and deals and watch out for yourself, from day one. That said, the above behavior is deplorable.

"why there are so many liars and cheaters and bs in the New York RE markets?"

because there's money involved.

if you wait until the "market is cleaned up" you're never going to buy. my suggestion is to come armed with comps, be firm but professional with brokers and never offer less than 25% off asking. if you find a place you love tell the broker you are very interested and be a tough negotiator. always be ready to walk away.

but cfranch, waiting until the market has cleaned up and waiting until it's no longer a land mine waiting to explode your sorry carcass to bits seems to me to be two different things? the OP's post wasn't so artfully put, but you wouldn't throw him/her under the bus for that, would you? but maybe i've misinterpreted your earlier posts.

I don't know why I'm even asking, but what would the OP consider as a "sign" that the market is sufficiently "cleaned up" enough for them to buy?

And I'm still waiting for "Broker Season". Here's a question for all so SE'ers: how much should the State charge for permits? I'm thinking it should be a pretty big number based on the demand from SE alone.

ar-no you got me wrong. lying brokers are the least of anyone's problems in the current RE environment. buying now and one could easily find him or herself 30% underwater.

cfranch, i don't think i got you wrong in the slightest. but the OP might have.

just curious, do you think this pump pump will continue until the TARP repayments? i'm starting to feel even more cynical, maybe until the health plan in august? quid pro and all that. threats that are meaningless that will s l o w l l y d i e a pragmatic death.

It cant be a legal bedroom unless it has a window. Although there are honest brokers, if you dont know the broker and have good reason to trust same, you should assume everything the broker says is false. Moreover, many will also omit to tell you important things. Just like I do online, re brokers lie about size ALL the time.

Dont wait 'till it's cleaned up, just make sure you do your own homework. There are now many sources out there to obtain facts.

"Just like I do online, re brokers lie about size ALL the time."

How many dating sites are you on?

I'm with 30yrs - the original poster is such bull.

I am not on any dating sites-just going for a bit of humor, but I am quite serious about broker mendacity after 30 yrs in the business.

until the nyc (and hamptons) cartel embrace's transparency, the same old 'smoke and mirrors' will persist. CBHK tried to push it with the mls and look what happened to them.

just fo - totally understand your frustration as this has been my experience also. it's seems unique to nyc - although 'lying' in RE happens everywhere they take it to an entirely new level here. i was actually showed a 1 bed that was a studio no wall nothing -- and when i asked the agent to explain to me exactly how this was a 1bed - without batting an eye - it's an alcove and you can put up a wall -- should be noted that the alcove portion was about 10 x 6 and half of it had a raised floor. to which i replied it's still a studio - needless to say it's still on the market as a 1bed.

i think one of the reasons for the excessive bs is it really takes nothing here to be an agent -- 2 wks and a test that probably most people on SE could walk in off the street and take it and pass. seriouly i'm starting to think they all share 1 brain cell and you have to hit them when it's their day to have it.

You know, why doesn't someone start a broker rating site? We've got ratings for everything else, and this would work extremely well because its person-based.

Whose gonna do it?

Somebody needs to call out these scum (not all, just a healthy chunk) on their nonsense.

great idea about broker rating, i dont want to give names, but i'll tell you that the experience i've had with the developers group has been extremely good (i cant believe i'm happy with a broker).

Corcoran is huge i know, but nearly every experience has been a lying responsive contact, or a pompous unresponsive one.
halstead i still have mixed reviews.
and elliman is a crap shoot (crap being the appropriate word) my friend is trying to sell his place with them and i think he is about to kill the broker and move to rikers island

I'm thinking do it by person. Then you can associate where they work.

But specific folks should be called out for the bullshit they've done.

Christina Toes goes first! Then that retard who kept posting on this board, April, what was her name? Agent Rachel, thats it!

Anyone who does sales should expect his or her sales pitch to be scrutinized, but what if you do nothing productive other than posting on streeteasy and getting into fights? What then?

As long as nobody has to PAY for the bad advice, folks like bjw are allowed to mislead people. If you are a licensed broker, you should die in hell for doing that though.

"i think one of the reasons for the excessive bs is it really takes nothing here to be an agent -- 2 wks and a test "

I agree that's one of the reasons, but another is that in many places, the listing info on the MLS isn't just taken from the Broker, but from County records. Remember, for almost all Coops, there is absolutely not place which has an "official" square footage or room count. So if an MLS takes a house's SF, lot size, RE Taxes and room count from city records, it's an awful lot harder to misrepresent it than if you can put in whatever numbers you choose to in a blank field on your "input listing" screen.

But if you guys think residential RE is bad, you should look at commercial RE, with "loss factors" and such. Loss factor pretty much equals the difference between the listed/claim SF and the actual SF. It's supposed to be "loss" for staircases, elevators, etc. but when the SF listed is bigger than the lot size.......... one of the reasons is to "help get the deal done" when the person for some big coporation who is charged with finding new space and given a ceiling of $X per SF, they simply make the rent the same and add SF so the number comes out right. I had a very recent conversation with a restaurateur who leased "6600 SF" and after taking possession counted 3800 actual.

someone did this a few years ago - it was sort of like zagat.com ... users voted on brokers. guess it didn't go anywhere if no one has heard of it since. i probably read about it on curbed.

if there were a site now, one thread on SE could get it going strong in an hour...

went to an open house scheduled for today, and the broker never showed up, never posted anything online to say it was canceled, and still hasn't returned my phone call or email..funny thing is nothing shocks me with nyc brokers-they're a different breed

thats typical...have had that same experience a number of times.

Hey nycsouth, I had the same thing happen to me last Sunday. Brokers advertised an OH on here and when I went no one was there. There wasn't even a note outside to explain what happened. Then is a huge play of audacity, one of the brokers called me on Tuesday and asked me if I'd still like to see it? LOL I said "No. You wasted my time once you're not wasting it again." This was a husband & wife broker 'team'. And you would think that since there are TWO of them, at least one would've shown up.

It's sales!!!
Very high end ticket items being sold 'mostly' to amateur buyers.
What does you broker need to know?
1)The legalities and process of RE transaction.
2)The psychology of sales

Do some people suck at this?
In every profession you have everything from excellent to suck

LD-they asked you if you still wanted to see it??? HAHAHAHAHAHA-ballsy i must say

Yeah nycsouth they are the 'gems' of the real estate business lol

It has little to do with New York, per se: Liars and cheats are drawn to real estate for a variety of reasons: It requires little intelligence and even less education, it allows flexible hours for those who are inherently LAZY and do not want to show up at a normal job at 9AM, regularly, like the rest of us, and have to take direction from other people, like the rest of us. It provides a disproportionate payoff for effort invested (sometimes very little) and risk taken (always, none). You can increase your own take not just by increasing the amount of hours you work, but by how misleading you can be during those time you do work.

In short, it is a perfect home for the shiftless among us, those who years ago would have become snake-oil salesmen. Prostitutes and drug dealers work harder, and offer a fairer bargain, than the average realtor.

In short, there is no more disreputable profession in today's world.

note adjacent thread---this time is the principal not the broker.

Wow Dwayne I never quite looked at it like that before. I guess it would attract the lazier people among us but hey if they actually tell me the truth about the condo I'm looking at, show up on time to appointments etc. I would buy from them b/c someone HAS to do this job.

"it allows flexible hours for those who are inherently LAZY and do not want to show up at a normal job at 9AM"

I don't want to show up for my job at 9 AM. I'm not lazy, I'm very efficient and hardworking. Not wanting to show up at a job from 9-5 every day and still wanting to pay your bills adequately is not a substantive criticism because I think that applies to most people.

It may sound a bit naïve, but as frustrated and disillusioned as I have become with sellers, developers, the media and some real estate professionals; I must say I have found a gem. Yes, someone who listens to me, looks out for me, and [most importantly] let’s me make my own decisions. Yet, he counsels and advises me from the position of a professional. They are out there; you just need to find them! Best of luck…

yes it does. are you in love?

Yes, but not with my broker... We all remember the "best teacher" we had, or the favorite aunt/uncle/grandparent, this does not mean we are "in love", NO! I am SIMPLY stating not all real estate professionals are LIARS and CHEATERS. A fair and rationale conclusion to make.

I was not working with a broker when I saw an apt on the UES. The seller had 2 brokers. One of the sellers brokers said that he would split off from his partner and represent me. Unethical? Illegal? Greedy for sure. He wanted to get the entire commission. So my negotiations went well and I got an accepted offer and the contract went to my attorney for review. After 1 day this broker called me to tell me to hurry up and sign the contract that same day because there was another offer 30,000 higher on the apt and he liked me and did not want me to lose the apt. Turns out it was BS. I don't know what annoyed me more: the fact that he thought I was stupid or thought he could manipulate me. I am so turned off, I wont deal with him or see his face. Who is going to show me this apt when I need estimates for gut work.

"Not wanting to show up at a job from 9-5 every day and still wanting to pay your bills adequately is not a substantive criticism because I think that applies to most people."

When I was 12 yrs old I wanted to drive a fire truck; it doesn't mean it was a good idea that I do so. Sure, lots of us WANT to not have to work and still be able to pay our bills; we also want to eat chocolate and lose weight! 99% of us realize that it isn't realistic and we get up off our butts and do what we need to do to pay our bills, and in most cases that involves being part of an organization or profession that requires us to serve customers or clients when THEY want to be served.

For the rest of us, there are schemes and plots and lottery tickets, and marginally ethical professions that can be done on the outskirts of normal business hours. Some also marry for money to escape the drudgery of work. But most of the rest of us deal with life as it is, not as we selfishly imagine it should be to fit our whims.

Not realt-whores.

The Real Deal just started this new feature for the "Top 5 Sales Agents of the Week" It comes out every Friday. i think they should do one for the "Worst 5 sales agents of the Week" too and it put it out on Mondays.
http://therealdeal.com/newyork/articles/top-five-sales-agents-of-the-week

"As long as nobody has to PAY for the bad advice, folks like bjw are allowed to mislead people."

nyc10022, you've made a lot of baseless accusations, but this one takes the cake. Who am I misleading? And how? Many people have thanked me for my input, and I've been really grateful for the same from others - it's what makes this forum great. I believe you railed against people who come on to this site merely to try and "educate" others - I don't think it gets more hypocritical. What a classless comment.

> Who am I misleading? And how?

There are entire threads on this. Feel free to reread them if you need to. You know they are there, don't try and pretend you don't.

> I believe you railed against people who come on to this site merely to try and "educate" others

Yes, folks like you are pretty pathetic.

Gotcha. So when pressed for a shred of evidence, you offer... nothing. Except more name-calling. It clearly serves your agenda to talk above anyone who even occasionally disagrees with you and lie to discredit others. You are simply not a credible poster.

50 threads of evidence, bjw. Just because you play dumb doesn't mean I have to play to your pretending. You know the threads, bjw, EVERYBODY knows the threads, don't play childish games.

And the best part is, you're the putz who is responding to posts from TEN DAYS AGO!

Pathetic.

> It clearly serves your agenda

ROTFL.

Thanks for the morning laugh.

And, back to the actual topic at hand.

Much of why RE brokers are SO bad in this town was because of the culture and lack of information. No MLS. Brokers had a monopoly of information, and used it to basically steal.

With boards and ACRIS and streeteasy and the like, its been a culture shock in a lot of ways for these folks... which is why so many are having a very hard time handling.

Being dumn is doable when you hold the cards... but now that things are getting closer to level, I think we're just seeing the death of the old rule.

So still nothing (other than the ten days ago malarkey - and I'll respond, especially to ridiculous attacks, whenever I feel like it, thankyouverymuch)? Solid work, as always. Point is, don't make below-the-belt accusations when you've got no legs to stand on.

You can say it over and over again, but it doesn't make it true.

We've all seen the threads...

And yes, I'll agree with that - the more transparency the better when it comes to RE info and brokers. There's no doubt in my mind that the power is shifting away from brokers who abused the system. However, I will say that too many brokers are unfairly judged merely because of their chosen profession - plenty of them are not scum. Additionally, they're an easy scapegoat for people who don't do their due diligence on a purchase or rental. It's your job and responsibility to be as informed as possible - never expect anyone to hand you everything on a platter.

"other than the ten days ago malarkey"

Oh, wait, suddenly you start remembering.

ROTFL.

And yet you're still responding to posts from 10 days ago.

Pathetic.

No, it's pathetic that you care so much. I didn't see it until now, sorry that bothers you.

Yes, bjw, you show up day and and day out to be a hall monitor and "teach" everyone, when you don't know diddly... and you're complaining that OTHERS care so much.

Thats hypocrisy on top of pathetic. Doesn't get much more pathetic than that.

Except that these are essentially lies propagated solely by you. See the problem?

Yes, keep telling yourself that. If you say it over and over again, it will suddenly be true.

As I said, pathetic.

As an owner and seller and landlord, I fully understand your concerns. If you are intereted in obtaining the true size of a unit you're ready to buy, you need to look at the floor plan/layout as filed with the city of New York at the time the conversion took place. In additioin, the prospectus of the building will show the square footage too.