30 West: common charges

Hi there - your best bet really is to ask the seller's agent (which it looks like you already have) or ask a different seller's agent. Our understanding is that the common charges are sponsor-abated for 5 years, so they tick back in at 20% per year. We were told that the building is on Year 2 of this abatement, so current common charges are at 40% of the ultimate total.

Another way to look at this is that since 30 West St is in BPC, the total monthly carrying cost of any apartment should be around $2.50 - $2.75 per sq ft. So for say, a "D" line one bedroom (which is 875 sq ft), the current monthlies are around $1700 but should (assuming $2.50 per sq ft) actually be around $2200, for an increase of $500 (not factoring in of course, underlying yearly increases in the maintenance not related to the abatement). Sounds about right to us for the area - let us know if you find out more.

http://www.downtownyblog.com

I looked at a couple of apartments in that building. Its beautiful, I have a friend who lives there. I eventually decided not to buy in the bldg because the common charges do escalate over the next few years by 20% --its in the offering plan. Brokers usually skirt over that fact. You are looking at probably around $2,600 a month in common charges and PILOT ( The equivilant of Battery Park RE taxes) on an 875 sf unit when cc's are fully phased in. There was a beautiful 1 bedroom, it was 32D (or 333D) that sold a little while back for $699K (way down from the $875k the resale was originally asking) BUT-- figure you put down $200K and finance $500K your mortgage and carrying charges combined would be about $5400 a month not figuring in any tax increases!

Somehow I decided a one bedroom apt was not worth that!!!

The other thing is Battery Park City and the surrounding vicinity is going to be a construction site for the next 10 years. I was a huge BPC advocate--lived there in the mid 90's and also from 2002-2008. I've now fled to the upper west side and bought a beautiful place on RSD in the low 100's with full full river views from every room for $600k with cc/re taxes around $1200 per month--overall monthly payment $3,200 HUGE difference. Of course its an older pre-war building and doesnt have the amenities of 30 West, but I know I can sleep at night much better knowing its not bankrupting me :-)

Good luck with whatever you decide to do

Thank you for responses. I did ask seller's agent and I got a feelign that he was lying to me. He gave some response that didn't make much sense like it goes up as % but the overall value goes down, so the % increase isn't much at all. So the $2.5 - $2.75 per sq ft thats cc and taxes combined? Right now its at abot $1.50 per sq ft (cc+tax), quite a big difference if that will change to $2.50.

LenchikYP...
I live at 30 West St and found this information for you....

In 2010 there will be an increase of 2-3% in commomn charges,which includes pilot, ground rent anc civic association payments.

In 2011 there will be an increase of $142 monthly (average) in common charges attributable solely to a decrease in sponsor contributions.

Any other increase in common charges will be attributable to changes in ground rent and pilot.

if you're looking for a river view and park-fronting one bedroom, you're not going to do better price-wise or location-wise than this one:

http://www.halstead.com/detail.aspx?id=1747936

Prada,
Thank you, thats very helpful!

Mjh1962 and Downtownster,

Your posts are amazing because they sound so lovely and helpful but perpetuate such BS. First of all, Mjh, what makes you say that BPC will be a construction site for the next 10 years?! The WTC, of course, but 30 West is relatively far away from that. Actual BPC construction is finished except for one building in the North where the ballfields are. BPC is probably the *only* neighborhood in NYC that is peacefully ... blissfully ... zenfully free of construction.

Also, what 20% escalation in common charges are you people talking about? The Condo is in Year 3 of operations whose clock started ticking at the first closing, in December 2006. (Easily verified in Streeteasy.) The Sponsor subsidy doesn't decrease by 20% each year; this might be common practice, but anyone with access to the Internet (and thereby to ACRIS) can see that in this building the Sponsor Subsidy peaks in Year 2. From Page 71 of the Offering Plan:

Year 1 sponsor subsidy is $900k; Year 2 is $1,830k; Year 3 (current year) and Year 4 are $710k per year; Year 5 is $300k.

Hardly big money, and certainly not enough to spike anyone's common charges by 20%. The massive increases in common charges is a bizarre rumour perpetuated by some blogs (Downtownster, please do more homework because people clearly rely on you) and further promulgated by UWS brokers posing as nice helpful types named Mjh who would be otherwise hard-pressed to locate where "its in the offering plan."

LenchikYP, listen to Prada and me. We both possess the actual Offering Plans. (I found mine on ACRIS, because I'm also seriously researching this building, and managing agent told me that the subsequent amendments -- not posted on ACRIS -- haven't changed anything substantial.) Now you should know that the Ground Lease with BPC provides for a $161k minimum increase in PILOT (= real estate taxes) and $3k increase in Base Rent, both effective next June, with similar increases annually for approximately 25 years. Spread over the many units in that building, it's probably a typical rate in common charges increase. (Prada, am I reading the Plan correctly?)

Lenchik, get a copy of the Offering Plan and pore over it with your lawyer. Find a broker who knows this building (I can give you a name.) And bravo/brava to you for checking out the rumours!

Good luck!

-Rector Place Resident

I lived in BPC for 6 years from 2002-2008 so I know the area well. You are right that the "immediate" area around the building is almost finished but right across the street at the entrance to the garage they are breaking grouns on a new building, there are several sites under construction around that and on the way to the 1 train and the WTC site will be under construction for years and years to come.

I also saw a friend this weekend who lives at 30 West who told me their monthly charges are creeping up --one investor who owned 6 units apparently went bankrupt--if I'm not mistaken those charges get spread around to the other tenants. Best case scenario you are looking at $2.50-$3.00 psf in common charges, so 875 sf one bedroom around $2,500. Just not worth it (in my opinion)

I just read Downtownster's post and his math is right on the money!

Just to clear up some misinformation, I am a resident at 30 West Street and my husband is on the Board of Managers.

There are no bankrupcies by unit owners (that we know of) although there is one unit in foreclosure not six.

Kaetzli reports that the Ground Lease requires a minimum increase of $161K in Pilot. That is an increase in the minimum Pilot required. Unfortunately, we are not at minimum, we are well above it. So there is no minimum increase required.

Next year's Pilot will be determined by any increase or decrease in the tax rate which will affect
every building in NYC not just 30 West Street and any change in the assessed value of the building which could very well be decreased. In fact, we expect that all of Battery Park City will experience a decrease in assessed value which could lower Pilot.

OK Prada direct and simple question--what are your combined common charges and PILOT psf for 2009?

Mjh......let's clear up the information on the construction in BPC and downtown area...

There are two construction sites right now in BPC and they will be the LAST.

One is the elementary/intermediate school behind 30 West Street. It will be the first green school in NYC, state of the art in every way.

The second is on the north end of BPC by the ballfields. The Millstein Family is building two condo towers that will be known as Liberty Luxe and (I think) Liberty Grand.
That's it for BPC...

Other construction in the are besides the whole World Trade Center site...
If you are talking about the lot by the garage across West Street from south BPC...that was to be a very high condo tower and building there had not really started and has been halted.

The other very high building that is forging ahead is the W Hotel and Condos...right behind the Marriott Hotel.

The Deutsche Bank building will hopefully be taken down by the end of this year...it's taken long enough.

$1.80psf per month - Common charges and taxes

Mjh, the math from Downtownster's post is absolutely infallible. It's also fiction.

Prada, thanks for the terrific roundup of construction sites. I would only add, for anyone not familiar with the enormity that is BPC, that the two projects in BPC you mention (the school and the Millstein towers) are located on essentially opposite ends. Lumping them into the same "construction site" as Mjh does is counterintuitive. The remainder (W Hotel etc.) I consider to be more WTC area, but that's probably a matter of perception and lingo. Anyway, a question: How is the school construction proceeding? Is it very disruptive? Thanks for any input.

-Rector Place Resident

Kaetzli..

School construction is on schedule...no money problems with finishing this project for the City!

Initial pile driving was very noisy but now no problems....the actual building though has taken away western views from quite a few apts but it was all spelled out in the Offering Plan and everyone knew about it. I think the surprise for many was how quickly the city decided to build a school (original thoughts had been a museum).

The school will be an asset to anyone selling in the building in the future due to the close proximity.

We also have (practically room service like in a hotel setting) a cute cafe on one corner and Inatteso (very nice restaurant with a great chef) on the other corner of the building.

Thank you for all the clarification! I will try to get a copy of offering plan. Prada, do you know when the school is expected to be completed? Any idea if the kids from 30 West will be guaranteed to go there?

kaetzli, Can you give me a name of a good broker that knows this building?

Lenchik....

The school is slated to open in fall of 2010.

Sheldon Silver has promised that he will work hard so that BPC children will go to this new school.

Prada, thanks for all the good information. Mmmmm ... cute cafe, is it?

Lenchik, Hagay Azoulay at Elliman (http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/contact/12816-hagay-azoulay)
represented me successfully through closing as a buyer's broker and I thought he was terrific. I met him through a referral. He also knows 30 West because he has sold units there (as a seller's broker). He's a doll (personable and funny, and the opposite of pushy) and struck me as knowledgeable (and if he didn't know something, he'd work diligently to find out), responsible (he was *always* on time and focussed) and seemed honest (e.g. steering me away from properties he didn't think were a good investment, even as a possible commission evaporated into thin air by doing so). The other name I have is Jessica Weitzman (http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/contact/72976-jessica-weitzman) whom I only know by reputation (friend of a friend of a friend knows of her) but that reputation is sterling. She also *lives* at 30 West, so between she and Prada, all your questions shall be answered! The only "drawback" with Weitzman is that she represents so many sellers at 30 West (I just checked her page on Streeteasy -- blessed be) that it would be impossible for you to have her as your buyer's broker for conflict of interest if she's representing a unit in which you're interested.

Keep us posted!

-Rector Place Resident

Greetings, I am a BPC resident/broker since 1998, and have sold in property in every building in this neighborhood.
I think it's important to note that for many people, especially famililes with children, the higher common charges one pay's in this area do come with some significant payback: great public schools, "small town" family friendly community, abundant parks with fabulous landscaping and programs for all ages. You truly buy the neighbohood, not just the unit, or the building.
As with all significant purchases, it is wise to obtain experienced counsel before making a decision. These boards are filled with vitriol for brokers, and much of it deserved, no doubt, but there are those of us working in this field that have ethics, and experience with the very issues you need assistance with. You just need to do some research!
Prada, I think your information has been solid, but the $psf you are quoting for your combined CC's and PILOT (payments in lieu of taxes) seems like it is still the "abated" rate, and not the full figure after the abatement ends, is that correct? Regardless, this building will likely remain solidly in the middle of the high-low BPC CC scale, even after the abatement is over. Every parcel in the neighborhood got a slightly different deal from the BPC authority, and of course, it's all in the offering plan and amendments!

bpcbroker.....that is correct

there is no doubt, the taxes and cc are not cheap in bpc but it is amazing there. it's like anything else, depends on what you want. this eve i walked along the water and watched and gorgeous sunset (i see that same sunset every night from my apt). It is like living in a vacation community 52 weeks a year. Not for everyone but it is worth every penny to some.

bpcbroker....

The abatement does not end completely until 2012. In 2010, it does not change.

In 2011 it is reduced and that reduction will result in an increase of approximately $.10 per square foot per month.

In 2012, there is no sponsor contribution and the increase attributable to the loss of the sponsor contribution will be an additional $.08 per square foot per month.

To say that another way, if we eliminated the sponsor contribution today, the average increase would be about $.18 per square foot per month.

bubbles...

Agree with you 100% regarding the quality of living in BPC....it's the cul-de-sac of Manhattan. The parks, gardens and flowers make it feel like the suburbs and you only need to cross West St. to get to the City!!!

Pravda,
Thanks, noted. Very helpful.

looking into buying in BPC, not only are CC & PIlOT escalating but something about a deposit that is passed onto whoever you sell to?>??? anyone know about this???? just another part of down payment and the glorified union that is BPCA!

someone living in BPC, please explain how another $20K makes this worth it. This WILL kill deal!

I do not live in BPC, but know that money is called "security fund." It can go to closing costs, or be part of the purchase price. In this market, you can negotiate it though.

hey shah. read some of your previous posts, you were interested at one point in purchasing in bpc. everything is negotiable but my problem is why isn't anyone upfront about this costs? i still don't get how pilot is in lieu of taxes when your still making a hefty payment "in lieu" of. & now and additional non refundable deposit of substanial $$$ that to may i an add'l $$down payment. frustrating! its a shame, because BPC and some of the newer bldgs are beautiful.....

Had exact same problem! Nobody talks about these costs upfront, you are right. It has made me to think what is so specific about BPC that makes it so costly; it is landleased, land fill, cold in winter, and high costs. And these are why I did not buy there.

I live at 30 West.

movinup1. Security fund is not uncommon in new condo buildings. We get the $$$ back when we sell.

PILOT is just normal NYC real-estate taxes by another name. It's no more "hefty" than any other New Yorker's real-estate taxes (which are less than in the suburbs, I might add). It is "escalating" no more than any other New Yorker's real-estate taxes are "escalating." It's the exact SAME rate. Your concerns with the size of the PILOT are the same concerns all New Yorkers have with the size of their real-estate tax bill, and you should take it up with the City Council and Mayor, I guess.

shah ... To disabuse you of YOUR weird notions. BPC is actually warmer in the winter and cooler in the summer, due to the ocean warming/cooling effect. I work in the Village and the difference can be as radical as 5 degrees (in a good way). It's nice to get off the subway in winter and have it be slightly warmer, and the cool breezes in summer are wonderful.

Landfill? Sure, it's built on bedrock from the original World Trade Center excavation. Don't make it sound like it's Fresh Kills here!

The landlease does give pause, which is why potential buyers have to make a calculated decision about their circumstances approaching the year 2069. But Goldman Sachs just finished a building on this landlease, so they feel pretty good about it.