Wealth Gap have a < effect on the working man?

Some of the rhetoric implies that they do. As a young man, I was part of an activist community that sloganized quite a bit about the wealthy, eat the rich and all of that.

It seems today many people get quite upset when they see these billionaires flexing their wealth in one way or another. But again my question is, is there anything tangible that makes these billionaires harmful to the rest of us. Or is they a hate direct to that? Then simply a product of envy?

Or is the hate directed at them simply a product of envy? I've always thought love them or hate them. People like musk and bezos etc are contributing hundreds of thousands of jobs and tens of millions of dollars into various economies.

Increasing wealth gap is largely a result of scalability of your skills due to technology, internet and social media. You don't need as many sales people or small advertising companies with internet driven scalable advertising.

At one end, there are clearly some people who lose their jobs due to scalability of skills of people with top-end skills and due to replacement of their old jobs with new tech. Their compaints are real.

But a Billionaire spending a lot is actually very good for the economy as in buying a big house and hiring security / house hold help etc. It creates a lot of jobs. Big spender Billionair great for economy at the low-end of income spectrum. Hermit like Billinaire not so great for the low-end of spectrum. However, big spending Billioniares cause a lot of envy.

Then many of them pay a lot of taxes which along with increased govt borrowing is floating out ever expanding social spending - Medical benefits being the biggest.

Envy will not go away.

An extreme example would be for Govt to take over stock holdings greater than $1mm of any one with more than $1mm in stock investments. Total market cap of S&P 500 is $50 trillion. Let us say they get $25 trillion (pension funds, 401ks left aside). It wouldn't be enough to pay the Federal debt of $33 trillion and you have taxed wealth at close to 50% in one go in aggregate (leaving housing, bonds holdings etc untouched). So you can screw all wealthy people and the life of others wouldn't change.

Nada probably has some comments on my numbers to more realistic ones.

So going at it from top 1% wealth point of view - more accurate data. That is appx $50 trillion. One time tax of 50% gets you to $25 trillion and will reduce federal debt if so desired. Then we will run up the federal deficit again unless benefits are cut or controlled and/or taxes for the middle class increase as you already took away big money.
https://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/z1/dataviz/dfa/distribute/table/

So I put it mostly in envy category except people whose jobs are directly impacted.

I find it interesting that The "Make America Great AGAIN" fail to point out when they think America was great or admit that it was when marginal tax rates were 90% and both the wealth gap was much smaller and multiple of CEO pay to worker pay was a small fraction.

MAGA Is simply a silly slogan. Although I think it would be better applied on a local level, such as make the Bronx great again! Make Detroit great again! Etc ; )

Keith,

See chart.

This is where a big chunk of money has gone resulting in deficits. Extra years of govt funded
healthcare, social security and pensions.

People who complain don't factor this in. Neither do they factor increased size of houses and availability of air-conditioning etc which are clearly extra consumption.

Medical care far more expensive partially due to costly new treatments available and broken system from cost control point of view.

And we are fatter and less healthy. Damn it. I want big mac and supersize fries. Wait Shake Shack is better as I can get all three food groups - burger, fries and shake.

https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/usa/united-states/life-expectancy

So I put that as longevity, extra benefits and life style improvements not being factored into common emotion of envy. Another way to think about it as we are wired / conditioned to divvy up the pie rather than expanding the pie. Tom Sowell has some good videos on this.

Then technology has made some people's skill-set highly scalable. This issue will continue from what I see even if you usurp the wealth of "Billionaires" in my example above.

One of the biggest cost issues of Health Care is that very often 80% of the Health Care $ spent in an individual's lifetime are spent during the last 2 weeks of life, when doctor's have already pronounced nothing can be done and strongly recommend hospice, but the family insists. I have an extremely painful experience with this and my long term Real Estate partner

So every time Universal Healthcare comes anywhere near a reality in this country, the special interest groups trot out the "Death Panels" canard.

But someone explain why it's ok that youth mortality rates in the US as well as life expectancy make us look close to a Third World nation

Drug overdose and murder factor in.

Simply based on my experience with the healthcare system, reviewing bills of my father when he was at the end of his life, similar experience to what 30 references. The healthcare system in United States is an absolute effing mess!

Yeah yeah I know they come from the Middle East to have heart surgery here etc. We've got the best of the best etc. Doesn't mean a thing to me.

When I was reviewing the bills that my father was receiving as well as my grandparents, it smelled like absolute fraud. Just absolute ridiculous amounts of money for procedures that took less than an hour in and out Built to Medicare by the hospitals and doctors.

I remember my ophthalmologist doing a five minute coronal lens polishing on me that he was able to charge thousands of dollars. He has a place in the Hamptons.

Probably the most politically palatable approach was moving eligibilty from 65 to 63 and then every few years a few years younger. Partly because those people vote. And because it would allow the industry to adapt. That is all off the table for now.

Medicare Advantage is indeed a racket.

MTH, How does the age reduction for medicare lower medical expenses per person especially end of life and abuse?

It wouldn't mitigate cost at all - it would add to cost - but it would address accessibility.

I am all for reductive solutions (cuts) if they are clever but they are not on the table, politically.

The way to go after abuse is to look for it aggressively and then hammer it when it is found. There have been several egregious cases of fraud that have come to light in recent years.

Back to the original premise: I do not think wealth is a zero sum game. Jeff Bezos' getting insanely wealthy does not hold back the avarage Joe. The average Joe or Jane undestands that. It's why the equality platform doesn't really win elections except among certain highly credentialed demographics (example: credentialed white women in the knowledge economy and to a lesser extent credentialed white men) who will always vote for more security, more control and greater compassion. A huge number of people in politically crucial states want to emulate Bezos at a local scale.

MTH, Certain business like Walmart/Amazon do have a long term negative impact on the local economy and real estate. Think upstate New York. Warehouse and hourly jobs replace mom and pop stores. Yes the consumer can get the goods a little cheaper in the short run but your main street is destroyed and overall jobs are fewer and less paying in number. This one has happened on top of manufacturing jobs leaving for far cheaper countries or being automated. No one has a solution for this beside for the small towns to develop new type of internet leveraging businesses which most are not able to do. Which is why I say (only) some of the billionaire hatred is justified due to job losses and social landscape changes.

I have no problem with billionaires per se. Kudos to the genius who monetizes brainpowers into billions; my issue is the concentration of wealth that turns into generational wealth that destroys social mobility.

In other words, I don't want the government to touch the gains that the genius has achieved on their own (I understand that "on their own" is a loaded phrase and can be debated ad nauseum, but for the sake of simplifying the issue, let's assume the genius is from a a historically marginalized community). I don't love that the genius can pass that down to those who have done nothing to achieve that wealth who then see it as an entitlement and free pass to oppress others.

Regarding Walmart's effects on main street in the small town, I am living that in rural Ohio (both central rural and southeast rural - full Appalachia).

While I miss a vibrant main street myself, I feel like the two rural Ohio communities where I spend more time than I ever thought I would in my worst nightmares (which nightmares would have been unfounded because it is unsettlingly lovely in both locations) love their Walmarts, and I have not heard a single person lament the demise of main street. Can you blame them? Walmart sells excellent hunting (guns!), fishing and camping equipment PLUS large screen TV's, groceries, clothes, and whatever else one's heart could desire for a fraction of the cost of such items when Main Street was alive and well.

I don't get what anyone around where I am does for money, but then again, the way that many I have met here live does not require very much money. I am surrounded by tradespeople who largely live off the land. Homeschooling is prevalent and the appetite for travel is small. I have asked how they feel about what I perceive as the community's decreasing access to healthcare, and in those conversations I have had on that topic, there is a belief in God's will that makes everything okay. The more time I spend around these folks, the more I understand their vote, and the absence of hypocrisy is refreshing.

Jeff Bezos' (or other billionaires) getting insanely wealthy does not hold back the avarage Joe. But their need to crush anyone who isn't of that stature does. For example "we'll coup whoever we want." Also the feeling that they shouldn't pay taxes because they will decide which "public goods" they will spend their money on through foundations. Imagine if everyone else got to make those same choices?

@300_mercer - See @mcr above. Ordinary folks love Walmart. Lots of stuff for cheap. One stop shopping. Easy parking. I personally find them soul crushing but that's part of the attraction to NYC. That and I can afford to pay more than rural Ohio voters can for everyday provisions.

@mcr @Keith Heritibility of wealth is a problem. One an estate tax would go a long way to fixing. Heritibility of privilege is a bigger, more difficult problem and is not limited to billionaires. Haven't read the book but David Brooks writes about an elite - that's you and me and anyone who went to college (extra points if your parents went to college lots more if even your grandparents went to college) that games the system for their kids by over parenting. We curate a set educational, social and cultural advantages for our children from day 1. Legacy admissions, exclusionary zoning, cultural signaling - these help game the system. Working class kids' parents don't have the time to micromanage so their children's futures are determined by public schools, chance, personal drive.

@mcr 100% Many low info voters are grateful for what they have and want to keep it and have their own value system. They don't want the government or the media constantly nudging them about how to think or how to speak.

So related to the 'Eat the rich' theme we hear from the Bernie Sanders gallery: what we're experiencing now might be a form of class warfare but it is not class as defined by wealth or income. It's more about that ad you see on TV with a subtle message pushing inclusion. You have to put up with the lecture if you want to watch the game. Any form of social engineering, you or others being nudged this way and that.

Also: it's 100% normal for privileged people to try to pass their privilege on to their kids. But as a society we'd be better off going with standarized testing and marginalizing pious claptrap in media, academia, politics (our institutions).

Soul crushing is a good way to describe shopping at Walmart : ) that said, absolutely agree that a big Walmart or super Walmart in a former coal mining town in West Virginia, goes a lot further than a charming main Street(jobs!). That said, theoretically you should be able to have both. It's not Walmart and Amazon warehouses that destroyed small town main streets. It is the loss of jobs through manufacturing etc. in these regions.

And maybe in some abstract way throw in social media. Meth/opioids and you have a recipe for small town and rural destruction.

@Keith Spot on. Capitalism - the best we have, in the end - has consequences. Someone can make it cheaper somehere else so...either send your kid to a war or get in line for unemployment benefits that he (usually a he) might blow on opioids. Then when you get home from the shift, listen to educated media personalities, academics and government officials rattle on about your inherited priviledge.

Shopping at Walmart is no different than shopping on Amazon from my perspective.

While I enjoy an independent retail shop when one is in my path by happenstance, prior to moving to Nowhere, I found myself doing the bulk of my consumption of staples through Amazon.

In my experience, Amazon always delivered what I wanted at a fraction of the cost (not only in terms of dollars, but more importantly in time and effort) of what buying from an independent retailer entails. I would try other outlets now and then, but Amazon's choices and distribution network were always superior to the other options I tried.

In short, prior to moving to Nowhere, Amazon captured this consumer through convenience. However, now that I have moved to Nowhere and have a Walmart in relatively close proximity, I have discovered its magic and find myself a regular shopper there in person. What the shopping experience lacks in terms of soul is made up for by the wilderness that surrounds me. My most recent purchase is a pair of birding binoculars. Lots of bald eagles around here.

I think my shopping experience at Walmart has been tainted by the location. My local Walmart which is I believe a super Walmart has armed guards. It's also just so gigantic! I remember when these giant stores weren't very prevalent in the '80s. I used to really enjoy going to the Kmart near Oneonta New York! They had all kinds of cool hunting gear, fishing and I'm sure they had birding. Binoculars!

That said, I do enjoy the occasional run too, Target! And somehow I've grown to actually love Costco. I always said the day that I start clothes shopping at Costco, would be a bridge too far. Well, after about 8 years of being a customer, I have now been finding some pretty good deals on clothes! Lol. Wrangler jeans, some pretty cozy loungewear for the house, and the occasional Peter Millar golf shirt (Guess that doesn't count).

Costco furniture might be my red line. When you spot me picking out a recliner there, please shoot me.

This all goes back to the Sears/ Ward's catalogues that decimated the old general store. Since transportation was so limited they could charge whatever they wanted. One of my uncles hated chain stores because they cut into what he could sell in his remote small town. People resent feeling 'had'.

The shopping experience on Amazon is heaven, heaven compared to physically going to any store, whether it be a massive chain store like Walmart or a local “mom and pop”. You can price check in a matter of minutes and read countless reviews on products, all from the comfort of your home will sipping a Martini. Shipping is effortless, sometimes same day. You can sign up for subscriptions so get items on recurring schedule and save even more money. You can cancel subscriptions at any time for no penalty. Best of all, you can almost always return items easily, no questions asked. I’ve returned items and recieved refunds promptly. Also on the rare occasions an item doesn’t arrive due to lost or stolen, prompt refund from Amazon, no questions asked. You can request a call back on website and they call you promptly and are extremely polite. The customer is always right. Sorry, but I do NOT lament the loss of local, smaller stores. Amazon simply does it better, period. Bezos deserves his billions. Amazon has revolutionized the shopping experience for the much better for millions of Americans. End of discussion in my opinion. If local stores complain, they need to step up their game and do it better or get out of business and do something else.

I agree that Jeff Bezos deserves his billions. Heck, I felt like he deserved billions when he brought the Kindle into my world - an ipod for books that had a greater effect on my personal existence than any other consumer device I can think of. And I also agree that his focus from day one on customer service furthers my sentiment that he deserves his billions. I have no thoughts on the guy as a human being one way or the other, but I have no problem with his level of wealth. Amazon has "won."

I also have heard (but done no research) that Amazon is good for individual sellers, giving them a distribution platform that they were previously denied if Walmart or some other big box chain did not pick up their version of the mousetrap.

Both/and here: use Amazon all the time BUT I enjoy actually interacting with human beings in a real physical marketplace. I have my egg guy, my coffee guy, etc etc. And part of the charm of living in a densely populated urban center like NY is you can walk to that marketplace. You're not isolated in a vehicle. Great for people watching and there's always the potential for random encounters with people, vendors, other customers. Some are pleasant, others less so but it all adds to the appeal of big city living.

@MTH - Your comment about buying the recliner at Walmart made me laugh out loud and recalls a funny story:

A few years ago, Mr. MCR had rotator cuff repair surgery. His physician recommended sleeping in a recliner for a while. We did not have one, and I did not want one, so we got a cheap pleather electric recliner delivered to the NY apartment (maybe even from Amazon - I actually don't remember).

Fast forward one year: Mr. MCR had recovered, and I told him I was arranging for the removal of the recliner. He said he found himself sitting in it more than in any other chair in the apartment, and asked what the harm would be in keeping it? We had it in the second bedroom that had become Mr. MCR's mancave.

Fast forward to listing the apartment: The realtor and stagers absolutely loved the living room, kitchen and the primary bedroom; the only changes they made to those rooms involved removing the more personal items and replacing them with generic extras (throw pillows, books, art, etc). With respect to the mancave, however, they were HORRIFIED: What was up with this beautiful room that had been transformed into what appeared to be a large dressing room with an awful pleather electric recliner in its center, facing a TV that was far too large for the room?! As matters have turned out, that is the only room that has gotten any real use over the past few years, and Mr. MCR has asked if there is any room in our Ohio existence for a chair similar to that awful chair.

btw - not that anybody cares, but I feel compelled to note that I am not so far gone from NY to give in to having a pleather electric recliner anywhere in my home as a regular fixture. I told Mr. MCR that of course he can have any chair he wants, but that is one he will have to get himself. I know that my environment is safe because he does not sit anywhere enough to overly care, and even if he did, he will never prioritize getting a chair to the point that such a chair will ever materialize in my environment again. While I have found joy in my new existence, I still miss NY, and I draw the line at pleather recliners (as well as overhead lights).

Just an FYI... I believe they have a pleather electric reclining chair with a built-in massage feature at Costco ; )

I don't know why you need to demonize recliners. Just get a nice one
Human Touch Perfect Chair PC-610 Electric Zero Gravity Recliner https://share.google/dSSGiClzJdVYKwxNx

A conda that I bought what they left a lot of furniture behind, there was a non-electric zero gravity recliner. I can't say I loved the looks, but it sure was comfortable!

@Keith's original question: " Do so many billionaires and ultra high net worth individuals have a negative effect on the rest of us?"

The answer is: Yes. Writer Hamilton Nolan lays it out reasonably clearly here:
https://www.hamiltonnolan.com/p/all-the-things-that-you-need-a-billion

"...All of the stuff that you need more than a billion dollars to buy is stuff that it is bad for you to be able to buy. Stuff that we do not want you to be able to buy. Unfair power over other people. The ability to impose your will on others. The ability to override the democratic process..."

mcr sidenote, I managed to escape permanently 50 years ago approx 100 miles from your current location. ("Why don't you come home more often?") Because airfare is the same for me as going to London! But you have the love of a good man and nature is still appealing to your senses. Mazeltov -

@mcr - love it. The things we do.

And yes, nature is lit. You go.

@30 Have you tried wearing crocs?

@stache - Funny, that is the same word ("escape") one of my best friends from college who grew up in the vicinity uses. She is now happily ensconced as a tenured professor of molecular biology with her own lab at Columbia, about as far from Nowhere as one can get culturally. As for me, yes, life is good, thank you.

And @30yrs and Keith, I have no problem with a stylish recliner in a private space like a study, but under no circumstances could I stomach one in a communal space.

@MTH - I love my crocs; they are the closest to bare foot I can get.

@mcr crocs, recliners...if there was ever any doubt it's official I am a stuffy old man

Lol... Was just being cheeky about the Costco recliner on sale.

There are some recliners that don't look the part when furled. I have no idea if they're comfortable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTauV0JNtag

The charts start at 4 minutes 30 seconds.