What is generally considered more desirable?

Apples v. oranges. For #1, you're in a prewar building and #2 postwar. Can't divorce the type of
apartment from the building. Also, most Classic 6es lend themselves into conversion to a "real" 3br - DR
becomes 3rd br, maid's incorporated into kitchen for an EIK. In some buildings, the Classic 6 line is set up so that the maid's is not off the kitchen, and easily becomes a 3rd br and you retain the LR & DR.

If you are asking what the market thinks of the two layouts, generally (so much depends on building) for the same square footage and location, they sell for approximately the same price.

Personal preference. Would you rather use the maids room for an office or do you need a full 3rd bedroom?

If you have one kid, I say option A. Two kids, option B, unless you're "formal" dining room people & feel it's necessary to have a separate dining room. My family could do without & would find the x BR much more valuable.

My guess is you're looking at two different sets of buyers: family with kids prefers the extra BR and EIK, couple that entertains prefers the DR. I have no idea which set of buyers is more prevalent. Might depend on the neighborhood in which the apt is located.

AVM, I'm newish to the Classic 6 market (just personally moved to 98th Street, but generally work downtown).

But the other things that seem to be factors are:

*Light/view in the BRs (neither that apple nor that orange is moving well in this market if it's on the second floor facing other buildings);

*Size of that maid's room (a couple of feet makes a huge difference);

*Relative openness of kitchen.

That all having been said, the "real" 3 BRs seem to be more desired. Mommy and Daddy with 2 jobs 2 kids want the flexibility of sticking the kids in one bedroom and using the other as an office, or giving each kid their own BR.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

Thanks!
I tend to slightly favor of layout #2 for all the reaons mentioned. Can see the appeal of both. It is helpful to hear that the market doesn't usually prefer one to the other, all else equal.

Nyc10023 -- FWIW, I have seen both layouts in prewar buildings. But I suppose you are right, layout #2 is usually the result of combinations or conversions in these cases.

I am currently gut renovating a classic 6. I totally agree it is personal preference.

We have decided to separate the maids room from the bathroom that comes with it. Our thinking was that this allows us to keep guests needing the restroom in the front of the apartment rather than going into the back to use the bigger bathroom.

The maids room (read playroom)is still small as our preference was for a bigger kitchen. It works for us as the two kids share now and as girls it won't be a problem anytime soon. Also, the playroom setup works for the many guests we have staying.

To make the kitchen bigger, we have opened it up into the dining room. There is still plenty of room for a formal table but we didn't feel the need for a separate room and are happy for life to revolve around the kitchen. It will also improve the natural light in the kitchen.

I had a 3br postwar without EIK but had LR & DR (open to each other - 25 X 15), completely renovated. I would say it sold at about the same price point as a Classic 6 of the same size back in '06.

I agree with nyc10023 except in some circumstances, the MAIDS ROOM can be converted into a real 3rd BR. In THOSE cases, I think the prewar wins out value wise although in most cases you can't do it. One of the most innovative things I ever did - patting self on back - was at 885 West End turning the maids room into a 3rd BR in a way that it really looked natural (was on the "br wing" and looked like it belonged there; detailed it so it looked like it was built that way, etc.). Got big premium over other 6 sales in the building at that time.

the other thing is, "If you are asking what the market thinks of the two layouts, generally (so much depends on building) for the same square footage and location, they sell for approximately the same price." they RARELY are like that. Especially since in most areas you don't have equivalent postwar buildings side by side with prewars. Like on teh UES, the prewars East of 3rd Ave tend not to have Classic 6's, and most of the buildings (except on 5th Ave) West of 3rd aren't post war (and have equivalent units).

"To make the kitchen bigger, we have opened it up into the dining room."

This may come back to bite you resale time. Turning a separate kitchen and formal dining room into one room rarely leads to increased value and often leads to decreased value. When Cynthia Nixon came to look at the above mentioned 885 WEA space, she loved it, but wanted an open kitchen. I pulled her broker aside and to her that she really should be showing her lofts because if she found a classic 6 and ruined it by opening the kitchen to the main living areas she was doing herself a disservice.

(see, now I've added "name dropper" to my list of bad habits here).

I'm a westsider, 30yrs. The maid's room in the BR wing (or close enough) only exists in a very few buildings on the UWS. Can only think of 685 WEA, Krugman's new apt on RSD, 545 WEA offhand.

I like the solution of pocket doors between kitchen and formal DR (where the formal DR is immediately adjacent to K).

In a 6, that is. In larger apts (8+), I have seen many maid's rooms close to the BR wing.

30yrs - I agree - not everyone wants to see the dirty dishes in the sink when they're entertaining

885 WEA, 3B

Wile E. Coyote - super genius.

Also check out the D line at 895, which is almost identical to the B at 885 (and I think it will become obvious what I did).

"30yrs - I agree - not everyone wants to see the dirty dishes in the sink when they're entertaining "

It's not just that. I'm a big believer in keeping everything in a building "they way it was built" to a large extent. i hate seeing "prewar lobbies" in postwar buildings and vice versa. You have a 50's building? Renovate to an immaculate 1950's decor lobby. Same with apartments: YOU PAID A PREMIUM when you bought for a prewar apartment. Part of that is the prewar layout. I HATE seeing people take good prewar layouts and turn them into lofts. If you wanted a loft, you should have bought one. And when someone comes looking at your apartment to buy, odds are they will be looking for a prewar apartment as well. So, if you don't have one to offer, what do you think that does to the marketability of the unit?

Re: useful maids' rooms, see the 2-lines at 905 WEA, where they're big and right off the front door. Those're selling as four bedrooms rather than three because of that.

what am I missing about 905 WEA # 32? Very nice apartment, no doubt, but this one is still listed at $2.675? When #122 just sold for $1.88?

See http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/6100-905-west-end-avenue. IIRC, it looked as if the sponsor needed to cut some deals to make the 15%.

30yrs - don't know what they did at Stewart House - 60"s building - tried to make it 50's?

Maybe they tried to make it look like a retirement home? (ducking for cover).

30yrs -the whole building has been turning over- tons of young families really want to be there - building has a very good reputation.
Also, across from Grace Church School,great transportation and restaurants.
The old ones are dying off. Case in point , years ago bought two storage units for $6000 each - most of the older people didn't even want them Sold the apartment a little over 3 years ago - had to sell them back, at cost, to the coop - now a long waiting list for them - all those young families.

And for a postwar building, the apartments are very large - 1,100 sf for a ONE BEDROOM. (and thst is my measurement, not a broker's)

I'm sure it depends on individual preference.

Personally, I'd take a formal dining room with separate kitchen over one of these dreadful "open kitchen" (or more appropriately, "glorified wet bar") designs.

I think the totally open kitchen concept will be seen as a fashion of the turn of the 21st century. In practice, there is little elegance to an entirely open design where odors, mess, noise flood the dining area. If a design can be tweeked to allow the home-owner cook to interact with guests and be a part of things while cooking, and at the same time shield the "magic" and mess of what is going on in the kitchen, that is a better solution. Granted, I'm speaking of apartments, not lofts where the open concept makes more aesthetic sense. But even there, I have friends with enormous lofts who entertain a lot and they feel it is a real compromise that the mess is visible to all, that clearing the table and aftermath of meals cannot be concealed, that help has nowhere to "hide" during large gatherings. It is all most definitely a matter of personal preference, but count my vote for a separate dining room. Ideally, there would be an eat-in kitchen and a formal dining room. I don't see the value of a kitchen with a small table AND a contiguous space that serves as a larger dining area. Keep 'em separate if it works for you and the question of whether to open the kitchen up to the dining room is a toss up.

Depends on how neat a cook you are, and what kind of cooking you do. I'm a "use many pots" and "not clean up while cooking" person, so it would be chaotic to entertain while cooking. Our flow is LR-K-DR, with K open to LR (but easily closed up), K with a very inelegant old table as I abhor islands. DR is connected to kitchen via large doorway (but you can't see the dishes/prep stuff). It would be easy to install doors between K & DR in our setup.

I know many people who hate any mess and their guests show up when the place is immaculate anyway.

OOh, I love Cynthia Nixon!

I hated open kitchens for years and then spent a week on vacation cooking in one, and now, I have to admit, I'm a convert. It's just too wonderful to be able to talk to your guests or keep on eye on the kids (we don't have any but our guests often do).

I get that if you are having a dozen or more people over that the servant problem and the dishes problem become ascendant, but how many of us really have that many people in our homes more than four times a year?

Kylew, my favorite kitchen was in my old beach house, which was a foursquare where an upstairs 10 by 10 bedroom had been turned into the kitchen. That was big enough so that we put seating (an old garden bench) in the room, and guests could hang out on it while I cooked. Plus, sliders to an outdoor deck and grill ...

ali r.

i can easily whip up a meal for twenty (with planning, of course) and clean up along the way. i'm not that neat a person, but in the kitchen i'm a demon for neat. i love the open kitchen, but agree that the ideal for those who are not concerned with cost would be the large kitchen/eat-in area/family room with another dining area. when i lived in tokyo i did a number of holiday meals for large groups of expats who couldn't return home, up to sixty i believe. i would have cut off appendages if i had to do it without company and frivolity.

i'm the cook and i love having people hang out while i'm slaving.

ph41 - I know, but I can't help with a cheap joke: it's a character defect.

"I think the totally open kitchen concept will be seen as a fashion of the turn of the 21st century. In practice, there is little elegance to an entirely open design where odors, mess, noise flood the dining area. If a design can be tweeked to allow the home-owner cook to interact with guests and be a part of things while cooking, and at the same time shield the "magic" and mess of what is going on in the kitchen, that is a better solution."

Of course I think it's a great idea due to "pride of ownership" so take this with a grain of salt, but I think I came up with a great solution: firstly, in general, I HATE pocket doors. This is mostly because 99% of the pocket doors I've seen are done on the cheap, because to do it "the old way" (like you see in parlours between rooms with 11 foot doors on floor tracks with rollers) or an equivalent new way (heavy duty tracks which will support substantial weight, appropriate bumpers and stops, etc). But I did use a pocket window between my kitchen and lr, which was custom made and of substantial mass, plus made to look similar to all the French doors in my apartment. It is also in an area which is somewhat framed out to look like a doorway all the way to the floor, even though it is approx half window/open and closed below. The result is that the kitchen is closed from the "regular" opening by a set of French doors on hinges to the hallway and this pocket window to the LR so that it can be open when I want some "open communication" between the lr and kit, and closed when I want to seal it off (especially when I'm grilling steaks and producing lots of smoke which even the downdraft can not fully exhaust immediately)

i don't know if this will show it properly, but here goes:

well, I guess not html allowed, so:

http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/40/l_bc09cc9fce03417a97c8bcb350b607d2.jpg