Where should I look in Harlem?

not sure of your budget but below 125th and near Frederick Douglass is probably best and you should have your pick of the litter

over both shoulders

no, no, just fun'in ya...
Here you go'
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/475616-condo-105-west-117th-street-central-harlem-new-york

hmm
if you go for this check the sale prices for 103, 107, 109 and 111 west 117 apt 1
these are essentially the same apt as what falco is sending you to.
At this point you should not pay over 900k for it

From what you describe you should look in Manhattan Valley instead of Harlem. The prices are not that different from Harlem, and there are plenty of excellent restaurants in walking distance along the 100th-110th part of Broadways, a new Whole Foods on 97th & Columbus etc. Plus it's an easy commute to UWS on the 1 train.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/383846-condo-610-west-110th-street-manhattan-valley-new-york
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/415668-coop-300-west-109th-street-manhattan-valley-new-york

Also check out SOHA 118 close to A,B,C and D trains and many bus lines running south to the UWS.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/464935-condo-301-west-118th-street-central-harlem-new-york

i agree -- if you can afford the columbia area it is better than harlem
also depends if you like old vs new buildings

wow -- soha 118 prices are on par with what nyc_obs gave you for UWS -- no contest
SOHA cant compete with these prices
Sorry Althea

if you can qualify there are many hdfc coops that are priced much much lower than these choices -- in UWS or Harlem

I find Morningside still substantially higher than Harlem in terms of what you get for your money. Agree with Joe about SoHa; way overpriced. The 117th apartment listed is about $400K overpriced. In the next 6 months a bunch of new developments will be opening on Frederick Douglass. Then we shall see more reductions in Harlem based on inventory.

This is an interesting question, but you really need a price range to put things in perspective. There's just so many different options available right now.

We live near Columbia but have to deal with drunken frat boys and students which is not enjoyable. We've been around undergrads for way too long and are ready to move along. Other than that Morningside Heights is generally a nice area but its pretty pricey.

Manhattan Valley is nice and has changed considerably over the past few years. It will probably be unrecognizable in 10 more. It's close to central park, the B C and not too far from the 1. If you're working on the UWS, then really anywhere in Harlem west of 5th ave you would be able to get the BC or the 2 3 and get there conveniently.

We're in contract to buy up near Striver's Row (above 125th st. near st. nicholas park) and like that area. It seems nice and quiet and mostly residential with good train access.

Hi all, just to add my thoughts, we closed on a brownstone duplex (1600 sq.ft) a couple of weeks ago on 122nd & 7th. Ended up paying $590,000 ($372 sq.ft). I won't pretend that everything is perfect with the neighborhood, not all that many restaurants etc., but it does have a lot of charm and the Mount Morris historic district is beautiful. There is also a strong community vibe. As one of the other commenters stated, there is a lot of development on FDB and I think we will start to see more restaurants going up in the near future.

Not sure if we overpaid! but we do love the apartment and the 2/3 & A/C trains are only a few minutes away.

Best of luck :)

P.S mmarquez110 you are in a great spot there mate!

If you take the 1 train to work on the UWS then you might want to consider looking further uptown on the west side (Hamilton Heights, Washington Heights and Inwood) in addition to the Columbia/Manhattan Valley areas. Prices are generally much lower and there are some wonderful apartments.

There are some good deals to be had for condos around 157th and Riverside. I bought a renovated 1 bedroom this year and generally like the area because it's beautiful, quiet, and a block from the #1 train. Neighborhood amenities are lacking right now, but in a few years I think they will improve. I know there are quite a few very nice 2-3 bedrooms in the area from 450k up...

kissiffer4- congrats. that's a nice area but we just couldn't find anything that fit our requirements.
we hope to close within a few weeks.

agreed - there are not enough restaurants in that area. hopefully that will change soon.

Does anyone have an opinion to share on this new listing/bldg in Morningside Hts?

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/477825-coop-245-west-104th-street-manhattan-valley-new-york

It's Manhattan Valley, not Morningside Hts. No photos and no square footage listed. Find out the square footage and then we can determine if its a good deal. I doubt it though. Probably close to $1,000 per square foot which is very high for the location and late 2009.

>> Also check out SOHA 118 close to A,B,C and D trains and many bus lines running south to the UWS

Given that the Soha Apt listed by affrench is lacking on the privacy front..
- The Yard has a wide audience (see picture on the website)
- All the views seem to look into the an enclosed area

It is WAY over-priced

Mmarquez110, good luck with closing! Having just gone through it for the first time I think I lost 10 lbs in the process. Not sure if this is your first purchase, but give me a shout if you have any questions (no, I'm not a broker, just offering friendly advice!).

Thanks. I'll definitely stop by the board if any questions arise during the closing. Yes, this is our first purchase.

Thanks so much for your suggestions. Unfortunately, I don't think that I can afford the space I'd like in Morningside Heights or Manhattan Valley. Everything I've seen under $1 million is too small or in such miserable shape that I'd need to spend a lot to make it liveable. I'm not sure that I'd feel comfortable enough to buy a townhouse apt in Harlem and am thinking more of a building with a doorman.

lef,

That's been my experience as well. Morningside/Columbia and Manhattan Valley is significantly more expensive than Harlem in terms of what you get for your money. There are a number of new developments opening in Harlem in the next several months. That will add to inventory and drive prices further down, me thinks.

lef2009 - if you've been gone for a while you might not fully understand the state of the housing market here. Please, please, please do yourself a favor and look at rentals. RE prices aren't going up anytime soon - double digit unemployment.
If you must buy because you have a misconception that you aren't a real person if you rent, and you want to spend less than $1M, then perhaps you qualify for an HDFC. It's always a good time to buy an HDFC (if the building's financials are in good shape).

Generally - the best part of Harlem is the Frederick Douglass corridor from 110 to about 122. The next best is Convent and the final one is the Broadway corridor from 135th to 145th (this neighborhood is "the next" good neighborhood in Harlem as people move in in anticipation of Columbia's expansion.) Some like Mt. Morris but I think it's overrated and it won't get you to the UWS side so it's out anyway. I also think Striver's is overrate.

Finally if you're working on the UWS and willing to live in Harlem you may consider WaHi or Inwood. The commute to the UWS would be 30 minutes and there are plenty of solid buildings (all of them West of Broadway) above 155.

But again please look at many rentals before you pull the trigger on a purchase. You'll be shocked how much less your monthly payments will be to get a similar apartment.

The commute to the UWS from the Lenox Ave area near the 2,3 trains is no more than 15 minutes whether to 96th and Broadway or 72nd and Broadway.

bronxboy - I stand corrected

I agree with Jazzman about the Frederick Douglas corridor, but only for coops or condos. Townhouses seem to be very narrow there. Convent seems too far from subways to me. I prefer Mt Morris and Strivers. Why do you think they are overrated, Jazzman?

Strivers is in the middle of nowhere - there is no place to shop. You buy groceries where? Pathmark on 145th? And you're stuck with the local trains at 135th.

Convent has some of the same problems, but the townhouses there are so wide and beautiful that it compensates for it. Not too far to the A B C D at 145th. Fairway is easier to get to. It's farther from the projects etc.

Mt Morris is dirty, loud, and lacks retail. I hate the Metro North trains. It's just too close to east Harlem/Spanish Harlem. Way too many projects not far from there. The farther away you get from those projects the better. Certainly there are 4 or 5 strings of the most beautiful townhouses in the world, but I just couldn't live there.

I mostly agree with Jazzman.Great retail is lacking throughout much of Harlem- that is a known issue but I am definitely seeing an improvement up here in Hamilton Heights (although still a long way from great). I would shorten the Fredrick Douglass Blvd. corridor to 116th-122nd for now. South of 116th on FDB has an odd feel to it- old and grungy mixed with new, shiny but not completed- sort of a ghost town effect- and that was when I walked past the area last Saturday afternoon when the weather was great. I would be reluctant to buy anything around FDB for a long time to come - I suspect it's going to suffer from large over supply. I agree with Jazzman about Strivers

As to HDFC's...it really depends. Some buildings are strict about the income limits and others are not. I found an HDFC building for a close friend a few months ago. A really great opportunity. Her bid matched the highest closing price ever in the building (which was for the mirror image apartment in similar condition- in Oct 2008) which was 10% below asking price and the sellers were insulted. They got a bid somewhere in the vicinity of full ask just a week later. I know the board approved the buyers so now it's a question of the appraisal. The apartment (as well as all units that come up for sale in the building) was under-priced for the neighborhood- but the board is pretty strict about the income limits and some HDFC's are not- which I believe represents the difference in pricing.

Mimi, If you are talking the distance from the 1 or 3 train on much of Convent- then you have a point. The A/C, B/D 145th st station is pretty convenient from Convent though. I generally use the entrance on St. Nich between 147th and 148th though. Actually if your on Convent in the lower 140's the 1 train is a bit easier to get to because the cross streets are relatively flat or a minor incline...as opposed to 145th and above where the incline is rather significant. Also lower Convent Ave is very close to the northern entrance to the A/C, B/D trains for the 125th street station.

Lower Convent is grody. Upper convent is a walk through a park to get to the IND, whether relatively flat or a huge cliff. Right around 145th is kind of icky. So is the 145th Pathmark (125th not as bad, especially with a car). But I'm glad you mentioned cars. Because every house in Striver's row has at least 2 parking spots, you can just go to Fairway with the greatest of ease. At some point, though, the subway really does matter ... I hate taxis, and car service is even worse.

"Where should I look in Harlem?"

Dont. Better look somewhere else

Jazzman -

It's not that I need to own to be a real person, but that I need to own to feel like I have a real home. I rented (in many cities) before buying (in three different one, seriatim). Now that I'm renting again, I'm itching to change things to make the place mine. Perhaps not the best attitude for a New Yorker, but so it goes.

I'm in no danger of qualifying for an HDFC, so I need to look at market rate units. Thanks for the guidance on places to try. LEF

"Dont. Better look somewhere else"

Like Hammond, Indiana?

we just checked out Parc Standard on Eighth Ave (FDB) ad 113th.
Pretty cool and seems like good pricing..

well.. I am biased ;)

Why are you biased?

I prefer above 116th and below 120 st west of Lenox or on Lenox. But not Adam Clayton Powell (least # of new development). Either on Frederick douglas or Lenox. You're still in school district 3 and young families can apply to G&T programs in UWS. I don't like to live near the parks bec it feels less safe and louder. Lenox is convenient bec it's got 2/3 trains to UWS and is a very easy bus ride to UES. We're talking 2 small blocks on FD and Lenox but there are other streets here and there you may like if you're into brownstones... but the smaller streets aren't as well lit. Part of the street might be nice but part of the street doesn't feel safe. That's why I prefer FD and Lenox bet 116 and 120. To me, Lenox feels safer than FD yet. BTW, HDFC income limit is something like $193k/yr now.

I was looking below 125th but it seems to me that the Strivers Row area is better priced and quieter. It lacks the amenities, though. Now I added that area to my search. I dont like it from 125 to 136 much.

There are income restricted buildings that are around the 193k limit youngfamily is quoting, but to the best of my knowledge those are not HDFC's. The typical HDFC uses an Area Median Income (AMI) of 120% or less. This means a single person can earn up to about $64,560 or so at the 120% level since the NY AMI is 53,800 for a single person. A family of 4 can earn up to about 92k using the 120% level. I know there are some HDFC's that go as high as 165% of AMI.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/hpd/html/developers/til.shtml

And of course there are many HDFC's that ignore the income restrictions altogether

There were only 2 murders in Manhattan in the last 30 days, and both happened within the same 2 blocks: 131st and FDB and 132 and Lenox.This is an area where gangs in the projects from both sides like to meet...

Speaking of murder- the 30th Precinct (Hamilton Heights section of Harlem) had 1 murder as of 12/27 for the year (they must have posted this today). That is a 98% drop in 16 years.

Mimi, perhaps you are forgetting the triple homicide on Amsterdam and 84th about 10 days ago?

redelm, I looked in the NYT crime map yesterday, prompted by the article about crime in NY, and it showed only 2 murders. Maybe they dont update it that often, I will check again. I live overseas and though I read the NYT every day, I wasnt aware of these murders.

There are absolutely HDFC coops that have 250% of median income ($193k) as the cap. I suppose new developments are built right around subway stations to minimize walking home at night. With doorman - which is the norm for new developments. As far as the murders go, if you dissect the crimes, the victims are 90% from domestic violence or gang activities (usually gang members, not innocent bystanders). The likelihood that I will be a part of that statistic is nil.

I am no expert on the matter, but I know there are multiple organizations that provide affordable housing options. I believe you are confusing HDFC and HDC. I have seen HDC's that allow up to 192k (probably the 193k you are quoting adjusted upward for inflation). I have yet to see an HDFC above 165%. This link might be a bit dated (since I have seen a number of HDFC's at 165%- but it's still on UHAB's website.

http://www.uhab.coop/document/docWindow.cfm?fuseaction=document.viewDocument&documentid=37&documentFormatId=40

HDC's tend to be new construction from the ground up. HDFC's tend to be rehabs.

If I am wrong, I am prepared to admit it and learn from it.

youngfamily - the highest hdfc that I've seen uptown was 120K or 130K, and I looked pretty far and wide. The majority were under 100K.
The 193K are definitely HDC / HDFC buildings, and these are the newer developments. Not the same thing as an HDFC.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/432816-coop-130-lenox-avenue-central-harlem-new-york

This coop has units that have lower income restriction around $120k and units that have higher restriction in the 190k's. Others may also have mixed income restrictions in the same coop.

Don't automatically trust what a broker puts in their listings. When I bought my condo- my broker was so clueless, that I am still pissed off 4 years later that she earned a commission. I wound up on the phone with the sponsor more than I spoke to her- she she didn't understand what was selling. Unfortunately, it was a new construction condo- and she was chosen by the sponsor to rep the building. I have been educating myself in the past year on affordable co-ops because I am helping a friend- and I have encountered so much incompetence. I know there are a few good brokers out there- but they are not easy to find (Thank you 30_yrs and Front Porch).

Anyway- the listing at 130 Lenox (and all previous listings referencing HDFC's in this building) is wrong.

http://www.nychdc.com/ApartmentSeekers/AS_Manhattan.html
Scroll down to the bottom- you will see the Renaissance (130 Lenox Ave). It's an HDC building, not HDFC

Even if I didnt find this link- other clues to recognize the difference- Income levels, New construction vs. rehab building (130 Lenox was built in 2001), Maintenance levels- HDFC's get some tax breaks that keep costs low and HDC's built in the last decade tend to have high maintenance levels- accounting for an underlying mortgage and some also have doormen, which you won't find in an HDFC.

k

Damn it, damn it, damn it. I just want to own a 2 bed 2 bath condo in Harlem close to metronorth already. Why can't I just have what I want?

Poorish, there are 2 new condos in front of Mt Morris Pk. I really love that Park. Both have parking. One is 5th and 1240th, the other 5th at 120th. Ive seen 2 apt in the latter, 5th on the Park, and the layouts were quite nice and the one with a view was to die for.

Omigod, Mimi ---- that's exactly what I lust after!! Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now how do I finance it? Or rather, the market is so sucky that I shouldn't buy now, so what's a poorishlady to do? I mean, will I still be able to snag a place like that later on this year? I can't put my current place on the market for another few months .....

My job is in lower Fairfield. But living there is death. I gotta buy near metronorth. Please, stars, align yourselves so 2010 is beneficent to all NYC peeps!!
Thank you, universe.

poorish, if you're really serious about harlem condos (at least those like 5th on the Park), i'd suggest some more patience. although i suspect you know that already. 2012 could be a banner year for such purchases. cheers.

I would not worry either. There are way more condos that buyers in Harlem, for sure.
Yeah, Fairfield is pretty lifeless. I would not live there ever again, actually.

2012 is too far away. I'm a footloose gypsy. But the point is that waiting a bit is OK. Thank you, thank you AR and mimi!! uptown close to metronorth 125 st, here I come!!!

Uptown Partners,the developer of 5th on the Park declared bankruptcy earlier this year. I would be very cautious about considering this building. I don't think they have sold many units either. The obvious plus for someone like poorishlady is that the location is close to Metronorth.

Poorish, not sure if this is really for you or not, but when I lived in Westchester, near the Greenwich border, there was a building that almost was enough for me to consider staying in Westchester. I forgot the name of the condo- but it was the former Lifesavers Candy factory converted into loft condo's in the 1980's (built around the turn of the century). It's walking distance to the Portchester train station and about a half mile from the Greenwich, CT border. The apartments had ceiling heights as short as 12 ft as high as 20 ft but I think most were around 14 ft. The building includes parking, has a rooftop pool and hot tub, a small gym, and concierge. I gave these units serious consideration- but when I found a great deal in Harlem...I prefered the city.

I know that building, Semerun. Yes, yes. I know that building. Hmmm. I think you may be right! It's just me and my dog, and my dog is dying of cancer. Yes, the Lifesavers bldng .......... thanks for jogging my memory .....

Semerun: Please forgive the naive questions, but what happens to the purchasers if the developer goes bankrupt? Or is that one doesn't really know what will happen? And now that they are bankrupt, who are the buyers dealing with? Street Easy suggests that a fair number of people have bought in the building and that they're paying $800+/square foot. Is that information inaccurate or unreliable? Thanks.

lef, no worries. I would do a search on these talk boards for a far more complete answer than I can offer. One poster in particular would be helpful to answer this, he is a broker with a screenname of 30yrs_RE_20_in_REO.

The first things that would come to mind- especially in a building like 5th on the park that has lots of amenities- will they be completed, or will they remain/be maintained. I don't think they sold all that many of the apartments and the developer has a large shadow inventory (I know there is lots of discussions on this site and others about this building, but I wasn't following it very close). I think many of the closed units were in the $700-800/sq ft range- contracts signed at the peak of the market.

With a bankrupt developer that still owns a lot of units- I would also be concerned about the common charges. Most developers understate the true common charges to try to sell you on the development- so you would expect them to increase...but in this case, I would be even more concerned because they have to cover the common expenses for the unsold units (i.e. electricty for the lobby/halls, elevator maintenance, etc).

I would expect other risks- but this goes beyond my knowledge/experience.

I read 5th on the park is one of the buildings in NYC where most buyers are pulling out of. Can't recall where I read this. I think I googled. Anyway, 5th on the Park seems like a great condo by itself but it's such a GIGANTIC building. In this market, given it's location, I can't believe they'd be able to sell all their units even with a firesale under bankruptcy... The amenities are tempting, but the location is not ideal, imo, and the sheer size of the building makes me wonder if they'd be able to sell all of the units in this environment.

When I was walking around the building, it did not look finished from the exterior. If it's bankrupt, who will finish the construction? Will the court assign a new management and new contractors? Have no idea how these things work. I'm fairly okay with risk, but I wouldn't buy units in that building when there are better options...

Units are for rent by owners already at 5th on the park...and it is still not finished, no. Was supposed to be done in November 2008. And its a 10-15 minute walk to metro North, not exaclty close.

"I'd like to be able to walk to restaurants, etc., but I can't afford enough space there. Harlem seems like the most realistic alternative, but I don't know it at all. Where should I look? Thanks for any advice."

lef2009, if you want to walk to restaurants at night, take into account that they are not great at all (imho) in the harlem side of morningside park. crossing that park back from a restaurant in the columbia area at night is not that great imho.

the main reason why the restaurant picture will not improve imho is that their profits tend to be dependent on alcohol and by law in nyc you cannot get a license close to a church (no idea whether the mosques around 116th and douglas also count)... so go figure. if some of those churches close down or that regulation changes, then yes, there might be more retail available towards nice restaurants. not right now though.

but what's the discount you get right now for buying in the harlem side of the park? not that great yet imho. have no idea how many distressed homeowners harlem below 125th has (whether that increased during 2009, what type of properties are distressed, bought at what time?). i'd surely research that before doing any specific property search if i were you.

jason, re 5th on the park, the church that provided the air rights is a landlord (how many units do they have?) and it was always planned that they would be rentals.

so are you sure that those rentals are from recent buyers vs that church?

I understand that the church owns just a percentage of the units and yes, they were planning on renting them. The developers own most of them, though. When I visited the apts, last July, the buliding was almost finished. I think that since poorish can wait, this might be a good building to keep in mind. As time goes by, it might offer some good deals, since it has so many units to unload.
jason, you are 5 very short blocks to 125th and 3 long ones to metro north. Not such a long walk.

Thanks, Mimi! I'll put that on my list.

Admin,

Yes, the churches are a big part of the problem in revitalizing Harlem. They, in their very large numbers, sadly, help in the cycle of poverty and hopelessness in the community they profess to uplift.

No, its not the church rentals. Its RENTALS BY OWNERS in the actual condo bldg. Just check on streetyeasy.

These condo-turned rentals are priced where the church rentals were - and thus undercut the chuch, since those always supposed to be rentals never included all the amenities included in the main bldg.

Very interesting! I mentioned the church issue just to make sure expectations regarding restaurants are realistic. I wouldn't buy in the area myself. IMHO it improved a lot, but a new bubble is needed to finish the improvement. Prices don't seem to reflect that. Beyond the amount of section8/projects, is it really worthwhile to buy in an area with so many rent stab units? As I see it the only upside with buying is future very high inflation but rent stab are protected from this I think giventhat so many are on fixed incomes. I might be very wrong here, but I increasingly think that buying at market prices is nuts (lottery prices are a good deal though, and distressed sales if those become more common)

Its odd yes that you can rent a unit for $3600/month that "sells" for $1,130,100. 26x. Not such a good trade.

Well, let's face it, how many buyers can and do that math? The chance of earning money doing nothing blinds them.

And with this buidling undersold, there is no way common charges stay as low as they advertise.

true, and like soha, it's gonna be the market rate buyers the ones with the bill increases, not the lottery winners. i doubt most mkt rate buyers were aware of this (in soha it took them by surprise). but again, how many homebuyers took/take carrying costs into serious consideration?

regarding this, i've met many ex manhattanites that bought recently in bergen county, nj. i always wonder, will ever increasing property taxes in a pretty much bankrupt state will take them by surprise? most of them thought they got a great deal cause prices went down around 20%.

There are no lottery winners in 5th on the park. It was widely advertised as Harlem's first (at the time) 100% market rate project. Every single rental unit and every single condo is 100% market rate.

This might interest you:

No Longer Majority Black, Harlem Is in Transition

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/06/nyregion/06harlem.html

That article fails to point out the growing opportunities for blacks outside of Harlem in the past few decades: suburban areas of New York that were once almost entirely white, and sunbelt cities like Atlanta and Vegas that had fast-growing economies. It has an undercurrent of conspiracy theory, as these articles often do.

It also fails to allude to physical renewal of neighborhoods/buildings/systems resulting from demographic upheaval -- I mean this independent of the changing aesthetic and social scene, which can be a plus or minus depending on one's perspective.

MMMM...no I think that is captured in the "black flight" sentence. In its so common knowledge that I does not warrent mentioning.