You say gratitude, I say lemming juice.

Do i sound like riversider? my bad to me homies.. but this just pisses me off.

sorry i missed the party -- you would be fun with a drink...

when I hear 'lemmings' I think of MMafia

I think "lemming juice" is my new favorite term, although it does remind me of fish heads, fish heads...

OK I'll bite. Where would where would low/middle income families be without FHA insured mortgages? So their reservers are low, they're not bankrupt and they're not demanding billions from taxpayers. Seems like they deserve a high five to have made it through to this point.

We have a similar thing in Canada, called CMHC. Not only do they insure mortgages but they establish building standards and play a pretty vital role in the industry.

Spin, the demand for billions from taxpayers is right around the corner. Low/Middle income families might be SOL without them, but we're essentially telling our children that they are going to be SOL to bail these idiots. Worse, they KEEP DOING IT. There's no logical end to this mess.

Freddy and Fannie were set up to be the fall guys in 2007. The middle class is supposed to think they are being helped by having tax dollars and future debt used to keep housing prices unaffordable.

I'm sure my daughter is going to think it is awesome that this generation spent trillions of her tax dollars to insure that she will never be able to afford a house.

'You say gratitude, I say lemming juice'

Your killing me!!!LMAO

The CDN version requires 5% down. It helped me get my first house.

Yay, Canada. If the economy is so fantabulous there, why are you here? I like Canada, and I like Canadians, but they can be rather self-righteous. Especially the ones who choose to live in the US.

What a bunch of self righteous jerks. Every single on on this except ChasingWamus and spinnaker1.

Why, because the idea of taxing your children so that we can try to reinflate an absurdly damaging real estate bubble is folly at best? Who's gonna buy the darn house once you retire and want to sell? The kids that have student debt up to their eyeballs and a tax bill the likes of which you and I have never seen?

The Canadian version may have made sense. The American version - the one currently on track to cost us more billions of dollars that we don't have - is the equivalent of offering people five cents for every dollar they pay as a "benefit." It's lunacy. It can't continue, but we keep ramping it up. They are not morally equivalent.

Sorry evnyc but what does taxation have to do with FHA? As I understand it the program is completely self funded. I would expect any attempts to change that to be met with appropriate levels of derision. I wonder the cumulative value of the program to the US economy over the years and why so many are unwilling to accept that, not unlike the brilliant money gods on Wall St, they may need a lift up during this period.

I am here because I came here to set up an emergency satellite communication facility for the 9/11 family center so that victims families could communicate free of charge anywhere in the world. I also oversaw a team of engineers who helped restore communications in lower Manhattan. I met my wife at a benefit near ground zero one month after the attacks. So I chose to live here after falling in love with her and the city.

spinnaker1, I don't think anyone on this thread has a problem with FHA in concept -- just in how they morphed from a stabilizer for affordable home-ownership, to a carte blanche mortgage machine.

There's no income limit, there's a house-price limit that is (except in very expensive markets) ridiculously generous, you can buy multifamily on the same terms as single-family if you live in one (I believe they recently increased this from 4-plexes to 6-plexes!), and -- are you ready for this -- it's only 3.5% down! In this market! And continues to require only average, not great, credit scores.

For all of this they require mortgage insurance that -- lo and behold -- doesn't cover the downside for the program.

And here we are.

spin, the FHA changed its course greatly over the last year or so. it was a means by which the powers that be could support housing without having to go to congress for additional outlays. the taxpayers will only be on the line in the event of significant defaults, but that does appear quite likely. they're tightening up underwriting standards now, but many of the loans the fHA insured were subprime, loans that likely didn't benefit the new first-time homebuyer much, and possibly will cause a great deal of harm. i don't know if FHA can't or doesn't want to monitor its lenders, but they're out of control

i'm very much in favor of programs utilized properly under many circumstances to assist homebuyers. this is not being utilized properly, and now is not the time, for so many reasons, for this particular expansion. i'm afraid it will be the home purchasers themselves and the taxpayers who will pay for this folly, and the banks will make some money in the process.

Correction -- it's 3% down, not 3.5%

So is there nothing redeeming about the program that a little policy reform can't fix? Again, I would look to the cumulative benefits of the program over the long term before throwing the baby out with the bath water.

But what do I know, I'm just the self-righteous 200 pound Canadian in the room.

spin, i never recommended eliminating the agency, just changing what they insure. they didn't just decide willy-nilly to increase their exposure by magnitudes. they were ordered to do so by the administration. just like fannie and freddie were forced to buy up huge amounts of rmbs comprised of potentially non-performing loans.

over the years the FHA has had a number of mandates, some have worked on all levels, including financially. some have achieved certain social goals, but have cost some money, and that's OK by me as well. but some have been net losses, and this is the biggest example of that. doesn't mean i don't foresee a role for certain programs going forward, but this recent expansion has cluster written all over it.

Manhattanfox, so sorry you couldn't come to our little shindig. Yo ar, falco, Alan (next time Alan!).

Spinny, uggggggggggggg! WTF is SO SO amazing about a 'home' that we will mortgage healthcare, education and retirement to say 'i Own!'???? and if no FHA prices decrease thereby allowing more ppl to buy homes, the exact purpose of FHA.

W67: I think spinny is Cdn - so no need to worry about HC, education & retirement.

Flmao. So let me get this straight. If spinny waited one year with dollar depreciating 17% in that time he couldve bought a 3bdrm 15 cpw apt? Omfg!!!!!!!!

There's always $ to be made, somewhere, W67. If only I'd bought that 3br at CPW for 5m, and flipped for 9m like the ABC carpets dude.

Off the meds again 67?

Clearly the program was and is being abused. So fix it. Or can it. I don't care and none of us should, right? We're all doing fine quibbling over $3M pigeon holes and maximizing our net worth. Screw em all. Fucking bottom dwellers messing up our retired at 50 plans. The kind of people who fall into a barrel of breasts and come up sucking their thumbs. They deserve to live over there in my multi family squat with the miserable cap rate.

Dude we ar on th same team!!!! How about making rent tax ded for incomes less than $50k?

Thank you, AR and Alan, for expressing with far greater eloquence than I was thinking yesterday evening. It makes me endlessly furious that the "creative" fix for this mess is more debt. The way the FHA has been structured for the past year is a complete debacle. At no point did I suggest that all loan assistance is always a bad idea, although I second W67th's puzzlement at the glory of renting. Such programs might make sense for certain segments of the population in normal markets, but this ain't that. It has been an attempt to recreate the "growth" of the subprime lending that happened at the height of the bubble, the loans are going bad faster than even in 2007, and at least 20% of the people taking out these loans wind up with trashed credit and back where they started...renting. The way things are structured now, they're burning money as fast as we can print it.

Perhaps we can revisit this debate when we see in a few weeks or months how many billions the FHA needs in bailout money. This is not, for the record, the only bailout problem that makes me angry; it just happened to be in the headlines.

Need a proofreader. "although I second W67th's puzzlement at the glory of BUYING." If you cannot afford it, you do not "deserve" to own a home. Owning is a fine thing that I aspire to myself, but renting is not the equivalent of catching bubonic plague. It is frequently the responsible choice. If we learned one thing from this bubble, I wish we could all just agree on that.

You need more than a proofreader, my American friend.

Yeah, and what are you offering, canuk?

How did I know just from the headline that this thread was started by doggie?

Because it was witty and funny, cyberstalker?

This is interesting. I'm also a (self-righteous?) Canadian. I can't speak for Spinnaker, but as a Canadian in NYC I am endlessly astonished to see the disdain that those who perceive themselves to be middle or upper class have for the working class. Perhaps this is what spinaker is sensing too (or maybe not, just a thought...). I understand the problems with creating another real estate bubble and propping up a broken market, really I do (I think it's foolish) but sometimes the vitriol that I hear (on the news, in newspapers, on talk radio) sounds quite hateful and selfish. (Uh oh, I'm being moralizing and self-righteous).

Seriously, put down the Ayn Rand.

evnyc is not a follower of rand, and is one of the more sympathetic posters on this board. here we have in very obvious action evidence of the divisiveness caused by our last decade. 15 years ago had you asked for opinions regarding the FHA programs you would have received a puzzled "i dunno." today, vitriol.

i agree with both spin and evnyc. we have a society that has put way too much value on home ownership, led by a government and a financial industry that have had self-interested reasons for inculcating such priorities. we have a horribly broken economy. we have people who are nearly destitute. we have empty homes. we have people who couldn't possibly have saved enough to buy because rental inflation (and other fixed costs) went through the roof along with purchase prices.

all of this just sucks. but the answer isn't to give more people rope to hang themselves with. what i'm seeing now in the credit world seems to be a gamble that unemployment won't increase much further. as such, if you've made it thus far, it seems to me, they're willing to extend credit again. that's a very dangerous supposition. even if unemployment remained at this level it would imply many people entering the unemployed ranks as others exited. and help us all if some of the very good prognosticators are correct and we get to 12-13%.

btw, pricesNYC, as a human (not a Canadian) i'm endlessly astonished to see the disdain people of all classes have for each other. as someone who has spent a fair amount of time studying psychology, i'm not so astonished, but still saddened.

The social divide is much narrower in Canada, prices (I'm a fellow Canadian too). I mentioned this before, but it will be interesting to see if Canadian emigration to the U.S. is going to slow down (half my class from U is here).

"as a human (not a Canadian) i'm endlessly astonished to see the disdain people of all classes have for each other. as someone who has spent a fair amount of time studying psychology, i'm not so astonished, but still saddened. "

Oh please, what are you is an entitled limousine liberal.

About Ready,

Completely agree with your statement. Thanks for the explanation.

Hfscomm1,

There's nothing wrong with being being rich and being liberal.

Prices, not all Canadians are self-righteous by any stretch. I am friends with many who live here in the city and I lived in Canada myself for a while; generally I like Canadians. But a few hold the puzzling opinion that Canada is the golden land of all things sensible and wonderful, while the US is a horrible place run by idiots. This makes me wonder why they choose to live here.

EV: It's called $ & job opportunity. That's why half my class ended up here. Also, I have this theory that the U.S. acts as a safety valve for more right-wing Canadians. Canadians in Canada are more left-wing than Canadians in the U.S. - more than 1 Bushie speechwriter is Canadian.

Ayn Rand........right wing pseudo-intelectual mental masterbation rantings of a disempowered youth spent in a newly minted USSR. Poor, poor, Alisa Rosenbaum and the minions she gave birth to, not the least...Alan Greenspan (aka: the undertaker...how prophetic)

That's interesting, NYC10023. I hadn't thought of it that way. I don't actually think our friend Spin is of that mindset, however, and neither am I. Logically, however, if the money and the job opportunities are better here, doesn't that sort of imply that the US is doing *something* right in comparison to the Golden North? Despite the very, very many things we do wrong...such as the ways we are attempting to mop up this housing mess. It's the "We did x in Cananda and things are so much better there as a result" attitude that gets on my nerves.

"There's nothing wrong with being being rich and being liberal."

Liberal *means* generous, so really there's something wrong with being rich and NOT liberal. See "Scrooge" for more details.

I thought Canadians were flocking to the US to protest the raping of their nation by their fellow Loonies: wholesale removal of virgin forest, elimination of mountains in search of exportable minerals, poisoning of lands in the name of the petrochemical industrial complex. Not to mention Labatt and Molson ... I'd flee too.

A beautiful quote, courtesy of the Wikipedia, for those of you who think a 3% downpayment is more financial grounding than necessary:
"Since 1998, non-profits have been providing downpayment gifts to borrowers who purchase homes where the seller has agreed to reimburse the non-profit and pay an additional processing fee. In May 2006, the IRS determined that this is not "charitable activity" and has moved to revoke the non-profit status of groups providing downpayment assistance in this manner. FHA has since stopped down payment assistance program through 3rd non profits. There is a bill currently in congress that hopes to bring back down payment assistance programs through these so called non profits."

"Not to mention Labatt and Molson ... I'd flee too."

haha, Alan, but they also have Unibroue. For that brewery alone I'll always love Canada. Wish it was easier to find on tap...

Given that negative equity is one of the biggest factors in people deciding to walk away from their homes, is 3% in any way, shape, or form a reasonable down payment requirement in a still-wobbly market? Not only is it uncharitable, but such assistance is downright highway robbery. Trash your credit scores; give a gift to the NAR and the banks. Let's hope that bill fails.

here we go.

Let's assume in 1950 the us looked around and saw that ppp with ferarris were well to do, went to school and paid taxes. Some knucklehead sponsors a bill allowing the tax ded of purchasing said car. Mortgage companies start popping up. First 1 yr 50% down mortgage, then 5 yr 20% down etc etc etc. Till we have every moron and their monkey driving ferarris, till every show on tv, conversation and job is connected to making, sprucing up, selling this product and the financial products it creates. And wham! We've scraped thE bottom. Everyone is full up, every parent has bought their kids multiple f cars by their 6th bday, we've raped all the steel forests to build these things. The f car bubble pops, a little seen study shows the original f car owners success, hard work, savings and education is reflected in their purchases and not the other way around.

Given the above our govt decides lets pump up the FFA for 3% dp loan and give $15k tax credits for any lemmings who hasn't had this joy ride yet. Flmao.

Federal Ferarri Agency.

ppp= ppl= people.

well. at least, i'd have a ferrari then.

Cc, for you a well deserved f.

on the other hand by now, it would probably be a rusted out lawn ornament. oh well.

$ and opportunities has always been more abundant south of the border for one reason - the size and diversity of the U.S. economy vs. the traditionally more resource-based Cdn economy. In any given profession (except for a few niches), the job market is many, many times larger in the U.S. due to the population size. COLA is lower in the U.S. compared to the 2 English-speaking cities that most Cdn professionals gravitate to.

Most Cdns move here in their 20s when the financial equation is very clearly tilted to the U.S. - you're young, healthy, no kids, single. And the lure of a few thousand dollars annually is all it takes.

I didn't mean to make this a referendum about Canada vs the USA. I think the US is a great country and NYC in particular is an amazing city. Though I was born and raised in Canada, I had US citizenship from birth as both my parents were American (they moved to Canada before I was born. My dad was a geologist and there was work in Canada). As a child I was very proud to be both Canadian and American growing up and I even sang the US national anthem before I went to bed at night. Seriously. I was a weird kid.

So I'm in the US because I can be and because NYC is an exciting city with a stellar public transportation system and a great deal of opportunity for success (if you're educated and smart). Toronto just isn't as exciting and Montreal is wonderful, but far too cold.

I don't hate America and I don't think Canada does everything right. In fact, NYC does a whole bunch of things right. I just get discouraged when I sense that people are blaming our country's problems on care and concern for the poor and middle class.

I also agree with nearly everything evnyc said, minus the part about Canadians being full of themselves.

Anyway, interesting thread. Like spinnaker, I hope the the FHA can be solved with policy changes rather than by scrapping the program altogether.

Even the part about unibrow?

Heh, Alan, that's what my spouse calls it!

Prices, I never meant anyone but Spinaker in my comments, and I hope that was clear. There is a specific subset of Canadians living here quite willing to blame the US for every problem in the world, and I think I've been pretty clear about why I think that's ludicrous without being particularly rah-rah for the US. A major problem here is that the "help" that is supposedly being offered the middle class - which, by the way, I am a part of - isn't actually help. It's a thinly veiled handout to NAR and the banks. They get to make more transactions; FHA gets to be the patsy that repays them when NO ONE in their right minds would have made those loans!

ev, great to meet you, but sorry we didn't really get a chance to talk, and I didn't even meet said spouse to say hello.

prices, if you don't like your countries, why don't you just pack up and move to two others?

Alan, next time, I promise. I had had a few and probably was saying moronic things anyway; I'll be more fun next time around.

A little weird how this turned into a discussion about righteous Canadians. After 15 years in the US it's the first time I've heard such a term. Usually we are referred to as the red headed step child, or french hockey playing moose hunters. Maybe AR could tell us a little about what this says about the changing American psyche.

FHA boss was quoted yesterday and speaks to some of the recent criticism of the agency.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i1xkspzIiuQ7nMLDwIp3VD01CSvAD9BVITF80

And you expected the head of the agency speaking to NAR was going to say something else? Like, gee, we really screwed the pooch. Sorry guys, we were holding you upside down so you could suck the dregs from the keg before it was finally taken away?

And you expected the head of the agency speaking to NAR was going to say something else? Like, gee, we really screwed the pooch. Sorry guys, we were holding you upside down so you could suck the dregs from the keg before it was finally taken away?

Not that your contributions haven't been without intrigue evnyc, sometimes its worthwhile hearing from the head of the agency at the center of the debate.

Alanhart, huh? I don't "hate my countries." If you criticize your child does that mean you hate your child? No. It means you care enough to have an opinion.

Evnyc, I think I am a little self-righteous. I'm okay with it.

Spinnaker, Thank you for your level-headed approach to this discussion and thanks for your help with the 9/11 families.

columbiacounty
1 day ago
well. at least, i'd have a ferrari then.

columbiacounty
1 day ago
on the other hand by now, it would probably be a rusted out lawn ornament. oh well.

You are like the cooler, aren't you?

pricesNYC, I like your deadpan delivery.

well. at least, i'd have a ferrari then.

on the other hand by now, it would probably be a rusted out lawn ornament. oh well.