What is the deal with Brooklyn

Turbo, Red Hook is really not representative of why BK prime is more expensive.

My take is
1. Housing stock in BK prime of beautiful brownstones (3 family in many cases making it conducive to young people) close to subways and Manhattan. Queens, at least I am familiar with doesn't have housing stock like that close to subways. There are indeed some beautiful single family areas further away from Manhattan and subway (Jamaica estates) but that is not where young people live.
2. BK prime developed a critical mass of young high income people, amenities and hip factor.
3. Some areas like BK Heights were always fancier.
4. Look at the number of private schools which have existing for a long time in Brooklyn. It suggests that BK was wealthier than Queens historically. I think of Queens as largely middle class (I know areas like Flushing have become expensive) and BK as mix of rich. middle, poor, and get shot areas depending of where you are.
5. Walk (run) in Park Slope prime: take different streets from Prospect Park to 7th avenue. That area is nicer than more prime locations in Manhattan.
6. Think about why West Village is more expensive than prime UWS now. It wasn't like that 30 years back. Why did it happen?

Forgot to add: Why is Harlem just north of Central Park to 130th street is cheaper than prime Brooklyn. It is Manhattan and well connected by subway with beautiful housing stock!! Crime, drugs (American Gangster movie), demographics, public housing, just happens to be -- many reasons.

You just discovered Brooklyn too late... It's always been great, and it used to be relatively cheap to be in prime brownstone Brooklyn.

300 Mercer, thanks, a lot of what you said makes sense. I was mainly surprised how little inventory there seems to be in Red Hook, especially under $1 million, given that it’s not really considered prime Brooklyn. Maybe historical reasons? There seemed to be quite a bit of older industrial building so maybe in the past there was a lot of manufacturing in that area that has dried up and it’s just taking time for new housing to be built. Or maybe zoning reasons? Not sure, but I was just shocked that there was only one property under $1 million in Red Hook according to SE. That surprised me more than the multi-million dollar price tags for Brooklyn brownstones, I get that, I’ve walked/run those areas and they are beautiful

I’ve also read that property taxes for these brownstones are ridiculously low (relatively speaking) compared to Manhattan condos. Do you think this drives alot of the appeal of Brooklyn? Do you think this is something that is going to get “corrected “ by the city anytime soon?

Kings County vs. Queens County

It is clearly a driver of Brooklyn brownstones vs Manhattan. But Queens is generally equally low taxes. For $4mm townhouse in prime BK (except BK Heights where the taxes are higher) you may pay $6-15k. It is low by any standards. However, new condos in Brooklyn are not unreasonably low taxes even though much lower that Manhattan.
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I’ve also read that property taxes for these brownstones are ridiculously low (relatively speaking) compared to Manhattan condos. Do you think this drives alot of the appeal of Brooklyn? Do you think this is something that is going to get “corrected “ by the city anytime soon?

Redhook has a few big impediments in my view. Flooding, a lack of subways, huge public housing, shitty schools, not pretty and not that much high quality housing stock with low taxes.

And no one will fix BK Brownstone taxes any time soon. Perhaps some minor adjustments. I have seen that govt doesn't even increase taxes by 20% cap every 5 years in some cases. All govts I have seen in the last 20 years including Bloomberg just want to screw Manhattan and New Developments every where. It is a reflection of politics in NYC.

“Redhook has a few big impediments in my view. Flooding, a lack of subways, huge public housing, shitty schools, not pretty and not that much high quality housing stock with low taxes.”

Excellent point about the subways. I just realize, during my 3 mile run from Brooklyn Bridge park to Red Hook and all the way to the water, I did not pass a single subway station. It’s hard for me to run even 5 mins in Manhatten and not pass at least one subway entrance! Yes, Red Hook is not pretty, I mostly was running along Van Brunt. But that’s what I meant by gritty and I actually prefer those neighborhoods over pretty, gentrified neighborhoods. My friends think it’s because I’m so frugal, I just want to live where the housing I’m cheapest, but I actually LIKE the not so pretty areas, as long as I feel reasonably safe. Red Hook reminded me very much of West Oakland which for a long time was considered one the worst parts of Oakland, which is historically one of the most crime ridden cities in the US. But my my first visit to West Oakland I saw grittiness and potential. I ended up buying several condos and houses and sold then after several years after making a tremendous return on my investment. I even moved from San Francisco to West Oakland. I clearly remember the day I moved, it was a one day move, the same movers who moved my stuff out of my SF condo to my West oakland house. One of then looked at me with a funny expression and said “I can’t believe you are moving here”!! I am still very fond of West oakland and I think some of those feelings and memories came back to me as I ran through Red Hook. It’s pretty to me!

Pretty depends on the price to me. Redhook at $600-700 per sq ft is very pretty for a mid-end clean finished space. But you are paying $1000 per sq ft now. I will take the bus or ride the bike. Crime is relatively low except close to public housing project.

I remember when Red Hook was considered an extremely dangerous neighborhood.

Maybe that is why Carmelo Anthony left Red Hook

I don't know the total number of units in Red Hook but I suspect it is relatively few. I see 19 currently for sale on Street East, as compared to 79 in DUMBO, 67 Clinton Hills, 208 Williamsburg, over 400 Chelsea, 1000 Upper West Side

Lived in Cobble Hill in the early ‘80s when it was mostly Italian families. Too young too realize (even though I was Italian too) that I was gentrifying the neighborhood. Red Hook was no man’s land back then. Fast forward to now.

After giving up on the co-op financial colonoscopy in NY, we moved to Paris where there are NY hats everywhere. Now we see Brooklyn hoodies and t-shirts everywhere here. BK is super trendy by people who have never even been there. My wife, who was born in Brooklyn when it was most definitely not trendy, is quite amused by it. No Queens hats or hoodies. When we start seeing SI hats we’ll know we’re at peak NY.

Think about it though, Staten Island hoodies would be so much more interesting. Maybe you should start selling them in Paris?

Village, LES has been cool for a long time but parts of BK shot in popularity. Manhattan Coops pissed off young people. And BK offered and still offers low taxes. It was hard to find multiple good coffee shops in what is now Prime BK only 15 year back. But even sleepy South Park slope on 5th/4th ave has several good ones.

>>>Redhook at $600-700 per sq ft is very pretty for a mid-end clean finished space. But you are paying $1000 per sq ft now.

That's crazy to me because Manhattan coops are mostly less than 1000 per sq ft. And Manhattan location is much more convenient.

And the crime is very different too. For example:
76 precinct (includes Redhook) - 838 crimes
17 precinct (Midtown East) - 446 crimes (and double the population, so 1/4 as many crimes on per capita basis)
19 precinct (UES) - 402 crimes (and 5x population of 76 precinct, so almost 10x less crimes per capita)

Source: https://www.arcgis.com/apps/instant/sidebar/index.html?appid=8153f961507040de8dbf9a53145f18c4

I am with 911 turbo. Brooklyn makes no sense to me.

Separately, where in Queens is affordable?

Krolik,

Here is the disconnect. The price of $1000 is condo, newish construction with 8.5/9 foot ceilings, and taxes/cc are far lower vs Manhattan. I do think it is high but you can't build a new mid-rise building with <$700 per sellable sq ft all-in cost (soft/hard/financing) excluding land which is hard to find for less than $200 sq ft sellable. That is why not that much incentive to build in Red Hook.

It seems only good move-in condition coops in Manhattan less than $1000 per sq ft are post war boxy 8 foot ceiling with aging infrastructure in slightly less desirable areas of Manhattan like Kips Bay.

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That's crazy to me because Manhattan coops are mostly less than 1000 per sq ft.

Here is an example of what is available in "off-prime" if not "sub-prime" Manhattan for $1000 per sq ft. In prime BK, you may get a non-high-rise condo building without doorman and total cc/taxes will be no more than $1500 per month. Manhattan is screwed by coop boards, higher taxes and doorman cost.

https://streeteasy.com/building/the-plymouth-house/10k?utm_campaign=sale_listing&utm_medium=share&utm_source=web&lstt=w7UgAI8aDlkRHOpbd_k-n64nqWt0wgzYYc2-khVGNI4ObnKWrtGxeKvecHhHwCMgoqqTh5BCevnNwTRA

For condo needing some kitchen updates, you are paying up in price as well as monthlies in "off-prime" Manhattan vs Prime BK.

https://streeteasy.com/building/134-east-93-street-new_york/9b?utm_campaign=sale_listing&utm_medium=share&utm_source=web&lstt=UD1M-LgY3HoURD3jGXpCUPb3AU0Q5iyuCUpuz0jtLpNU9JYVqbu6ugocLSL8TE7xXkI4CUwmHmIGR4XU

Krolik, depending on what you call affordable just about all of Queens qualifies. LIC and now parts of Flushing are more expensive.

> Krolik, depending on what you call affordable just about all of Queens qualifies. LIC and now parts of Flushing are more expensive.

When I was looking to buy the apartment in Queens, I need an apartment with an easier commute to Manhattan (walking distance to the nearby subway station, not spend too long time on the subway etc). The only neighborhoods taken into considerations were: Astoria, Sunnyside/Woodside, Jackson Heights, Elmhurst, Rego Park and Forest Hills. I didn't even consider LIC due to it's being too expensive.

Among these neighborhoods, Rego Park is probably the cheapest. e.g. You can get a 3bedroom 2bathroom co-op with less than 700K and about $1500 monthly maintenance fee.
https://streeteasy.com/building/61_35-98-street-rego_park/15e