Air Conditioner Units in Windows

Just a quick glance up at all the window units hanging out of windows along Fifth Avenue and Central Park West proves that they don't really hurt resale value.

And as far as board approval for central A/C, every building (not to mention every apartment) is different. It shouldn't be any harder than for any other major renovation.

Acceptable in Pre-War Park/Fifth Avenue. Not acceptable in new construction. Even in-wall HVAC unit is a negative in new construction.

"Acceptable in Pre-War Park/Fifth Avenue."

absolute eye sore imho

Ghetto.

Those AC units are indeed an eyesore & even worse from the inside, where they block the window, but how many of us are willing to live without the comfort of AC?

And expensive. The newer buildings with a chiller providing cold water to an a/c unit in place of an in unit condenser is a HUGE money saver during HOT summer months

I struggled with putting in two A/C units in my new pre-war apt, because I didn't want to block the river view--solution, put them in the top of the window. Not that pretty to look at but better than bottom and I lost very little view

not having seen this close up.. how do you adjust them?

Upper window units can be adjusted remotely or simply set to blow the way you like and left that way. But many buildings will not permit units to be mounted up top as it poses different safety risks in terms of how the mounting works.

Virtually no coop will permit an owner to cut into a building wall to install through the wall unit. Maybe small coops of just a few units would permit this, but certainly no larger ones I'm away of in GV.

When purchasing, I kept an eye on where the window unit would go. In the unit I purchased, one a/c had been in the living room blocking the view and light. Solution: move the 220 line to window in dining alcove of the jr-four and put the a/c where it blocked nothing but view of apt across the way. It isn't perfect when sitting in dining room and blow must be adjusted upward, but shutting it for a meal isn't a big deal either; and upside is that for the other 95% of the time I now get great light and unobstructed views.

In bedroom, I got a skinny unit that is about 12" high versus 20" or whatever the big ones are. The room is smaller so a smaller unit works fine. It has a low profile and I give up very little.

WARNING with a/c: be careful not to get a unit TOO powerful for the space. Get one correctly rated for the sq/ftage. If you err and get one too big, it will cool the space so quickly that it will cycle on and off incessantly and drive you crazy. More is not better when it comes to window a/c's.

"If you err and get one too big, it will cool the space so quickly that it will cycle on and off incessantly and drive you crazy. More is not better when it comes to window a/c's."

EXACTLY.

It's like driving a race car around a shopping mall parking lot. It's just not built for such a low-level demand.

In zillions of apartments in Europe they use a unit installed in the wall near ceiling height that is about twelve inches high and 36 inches wide and you turn it on/off with a remote...they are more aesthetic than boxy window units..but i dont know if they are used here

Jim -- Those european units have an outdoor compressor. Poses the same problem as central a/c. You need a place, and permission, to install it.

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Y e s , b u t h e r e i n N Y C , " o l d c r a p p y " b u i l d i n g s o r n o t , y o u s t i l l n e e d b o a r d a p p r o v a l .

which of course, in your building everyone can count on not getting along with not getting their christmas bonus.

They're called split-ductless, e.g. http://www.mehvac.com/products/category.asp?ProductCategoryID=24

cc, didn't you say you had those upstate?

In Europe and Asia you see them with the compressor hanging off an outside wall or on a terrace.

yes, indeed.

they work great and are simple to install (assuming that you have access to outdoors) and incredibly efficient compared to window units.

I looked at a large, prewar co-op (London Terrace Towers) where all new owners were *required* to remove window air conditioning units, with the option to replace them with through-the-wall units, within so many days after closing.

It makes the building look so much nicer, in my opinion, though it will probably take decades for the last of the grandfathered windowed air conditioners to be removed.

Those euro things are also more pleasant because air isnt blowing at crotch level...so it is less intrusive and noticeable.

it is quite amazing the difference between air conditioning placed up high and typical through the wall units which are at the level you suggest.

Just came back from looking at a prewar coop with AC units placed at the bottom of the windows. I started my search by looking at postwar condos and somehow shifted track along the way to prewar coops. The AC units really block the view and it would be much better if they could be positioned at the top of the windows. My broker is going to try to find out what the building will permit since the seller's broker wasn't knowledgeable on this subject.

>>Virtually no coop will permit an owner to cut into a building wall to install through the wall unit. Maybe small coops of just a few units would permit this, but certainly no larger ones I'm away of in GV.<<

Not necessarily true, especially on the UWS where I've been looking. Some buildings are landmarked so of course they cannot allow any alteration to the front-facing exterior. But I've found that many co-ops actually welcome through-wall AC as it makes their facade look neater.

This is something we inquire about in all buildings we've looked at, since we prefer not to have window-mounted AC units blocking the view. One note--make sure to check about whether there is facade ornamentation in the way--in such a case the co-op will not allow alterations that would interfere with the facade. I remember visiting an apartment that happened to be on a level of the building that was heavy with architectural doodads--was told that most windows would not be thru-wall AC contenders because of this.

"Virtually no coop will permit an owner to cut into a building wall to install through the wall unit. Maybe small coops of just a few units would permit this, but certainly no larger ones I'm away of in GV."

While I agree that many buildings will not allow it, I wouldn't go so far to say that it is "virtually no coop". One thing that does matter in some buildings is whether or not the cut is visible from the street (of course in landmark districts this has to be the case). Off the top of my head, Chelsea Gardens has tons of units who have done it.

Am I correct in assuming that most prewar coops would rather have you keep window A/C units instead of replacing them with a more modern (and aesthically pleasing) A/C system? I'm assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that if you want to spend the money to put in central A/C and if can be installed without cutting through the outside buildng wall, you will most likely be granted permission by the coop board to do so. Othewise, are you typically stuck using window A/C units in a prewar coop? I'm not talking about either landmark buildings or buildings on Park, 5th Avenue or CPW which are too expensive for me.

Sorry- if it can be installed wthout cutting through the outside building wall

lobster, no. What most prewar co-ops do do is require a certain kind and color of outside grille, just so the outside doesn't look too slapdash.

Not an issue except in some landmark districts or where there's some exterior architectural detail that'd be destroyed.

Ditto for prewar condos.

Thanks NWT. My mechanical skills are very very limited.

The consistent-look thing wasn't always a factor. If you look up and down Fifth/CPW/RSD, where owners most often did new windows and through-wall AC because of the views, you'll see all kinds of different grilles and kinds of windows. Used to be that that's how you knew it was a co-op.

Central a/c requires very little cutting through the outside of the building. One small hole for an electric line and one small hole for a refrigerant line. The problem is the compressor -- you need somewhere to put it and in most cases less than about 100 feet away. If you have outdoor space, probably not a problem. Otherwise there are logistical (existence of roof/shaftway/alley/etc. space to put the compressor rather near to apartment) and aesthetic (need an unobtrusive path the run lines to/from compressor) issues as well as pratical issues (board approvals, may need to buy or rent space occupied by compressor, impossible for each unit in a high rise to find a place for the compressor, etc.) that may make it difficult if not impossible.

Thanks NWT, I was walking along Park Avenue yesterday afternoon on my way to see an apartment and kept looking up at all the buildings to see which had window A/C units. I'll take another walk this weekend and look at the outside grilles. nyc_sport, thanks for the detailed mechanical explanation which I reread several times. I'm excited about MLB Winter Meetings this week. Thanks again to both of you.

I don't understand why coops would object to having the compressor of a split-ductless system bracketed to the exterior of a building, as long as it's not the street-facing facade ... and there are systems where one compressor feeds to 2 or 3 interior handlers, so I think you could cover even street-facing rooms that way, in many apartments. It's just several bolts for the bracket, and two fairly small holes for hoses. It's no less æsthetic, and no noisier than window units.

And it's way more energy-efficient than through-the-wall, which can only cool from one side, and often sucks the hot air right back in after exhausting it to the outside, making cooling even more difficult. Through-the-wall is considerably less efficient than window units for the same reason.

On the other hand, when will manufacturer of these things make inside handlers less ugly? They're all 1970s greige and beige. They should really make an installation kit that allows you to drywall over it and cover it with whatever red velvet flocked glow-in-the-dark wallpaper you want to (or tuscan gold paint if that's your thing). I think someone makes one that's supposed to take "art" panels.

I think there's a kind of true central a/c (not ductless) that makes use of all or half of an existing window cutout ... you'll see windows here and there that are entirely louvered where the glass should be.

In my building an apartment with central AC put the compressor in a bigger-than-usual through-wall space under a window, put the air handler in some spare interior space, and ran the refrigerant and drainage lines between them.

Very often you'll see a spare maid's room or bath turned into an AC room, with its window converted to one big grille.

Or see http://img.streeteasy.com/nyc/image/5/3491005.gif, where they used a little windowed conservatory thingie for the compressor and some spare hallway for the air handler.

The lockdown on facade changes (even where there's no landmark issue) was inspired by all those window changes on 5th Ave. Those coops finally realized that "opening" up the view by haphazardly putting 1950s picture windows in was devastating the appearance of the buildings. So you'll never find that allowed today in those buildings.

Not sure if they take the same dim view of blacking out entire windows with a/c louvers, though.

"I don't understand why coops would object to having the compressor of a split-ductless system bracketed to the exterior of a building, as long as it's not the street-facing facade ... and there are systems where one compressor feeds to 2 or 3 interior handlers, so I think you could cover even street-facing rooms that way, in many apartments. It's just several bolts for the bracket, and two fairly small holes for hoses. It's no less æsthetic, and no noisier than window units."

Because:

a) they're ugly, and

b) once something becomes "bracketed" or otherwise attached to the side of the building, it becomes the responsibility of the co-op to maintain -- have inspected -- and ultimately, bear the responsibility for when it falls on someone's head.

a) the interiors of prewar buildings are, almost without exception, irredeemably ugly, poke-your-eyes-out unæsthetic
b) someone's head is not generally in the airshaft or courtyard of said building
c) the coops seem to already have liability for unbolted free-falling window units falling on someone's head (hence the no-upper-sash rule in many buildings)

a) interior-facing façades, that is

"a) the interiors of prewar buildings are, almost without exception, irredeemably ugly, poke-your-eyes-out unæsthetic
b) someone's head is not generally in the airshaft or courtyard of said building
c) the coops seem to already have liability for unbolted free-falling window units falling on someone's head (hence the no-upper-sash rule in many buildings)"

A) Your opinion is not shared by most.

B) That doesn't matter.

C) True. And they're not looking to increase their liability.

A) prove it

B) prove it

C) prove it

A) I am Matt; I am not interested in facts---only my own opinion
B) check A) above
C) see B) above

"A) prove it

B) prove it

C) prove it"

A) OMG.

B) OMG.

C) OMG.

Predictably, I see window A/Cs as eyesores during the 9 months of the year they are not needed. I don't know why more buildings don't demand that people put them away during the winter. The best solution is to do the compressor with the hole in courtyard-facing/interior walls. Holes in street-facing walls destroy the aesthetics of the building, IMO.

I HATE the replacement of prewar building windows with charmless picture windows, though obviously if you're inside the apt, the views are much prettier.

"Predictably, I see window A/Cs as eyesores during the 9 months of the year they are not needed."

For some of us, they're "needed" six months out of the year. I live on the top floor of my building, with south-facing windows. Even when the outside air temperature is in the low 60s, it's like a sauna in my apartment without the A/C units.

I use a service called "Air Wave" (Bronx) that removes my units in the fall, takes them back to their warehouse for cleaning and tune-up, and then stores them for the winter. They re-install them in the spring. The service isn't cheap -- $200 per unit -- but it's like getting a new A/C unit every spring, all shiny and clean!

At nearly the same cost.

that's the beauty of owning two networks. money is no object. unless of course one of the networks is NBC.

He never claimed to own two networks ... you're putting words in his mouth.

He claimed to own a network of networks ... he's putting foots in his mouth.

right you are....a network to the second power? would that be four networks---he owns them all?

It's a network wrapped in a network inside a network.

"At nearly the same cost."

But not to the environment.

maine matt has gone green.

of course, if he really were green and not just a lying pig, he might get window shades to cut the sun instead of running his air conditioners when its in the 60's outside. oh well.

"he might get window shades to cut the sun"

Doing that now, asswipe.

replacing the sheer drapes?

He made a new outfit for himself out of those.

thrifty matt...waste not, think not.

when it rains, it is brutal listening to the rain drops hit the top of the ac unit......brutal.......

But at least you can watch the birds that roost on top of your AC unit. And maybe their cooing will drown out the sound of the raindrops on sheet metal.

"b) once something becomes "bracketed" or otherwise attached to the side of the building, it becomes the responsibility of the co-op to maintain -- have inspected -- and ultimately, bear the responsibility for when it falls on someone's head."

This is not necessarily true. In most Coops, the plumbing which is "inside the walls" is the responsibility of the Coop, while plumbing "outside of the wall" is the shareholder's responsibility. However, as part of MANY Coop's renovation packages, they make the unit owner/shareholder sign off they they are now taking responsibility for any inside the wall plumbing for rooms which the have made alterations to. I see no reason why and Coop could not have the shareholder sign an agreement to take responsibility for an AC unit bolted to the facade, rquire them to carry a certain amount of insurance coverage over it naming the Coop as an
additional insured" (just like every Coop does with any renovation/contractor), and even require an escrow in case they shareholder lets the coverage lapse (and as additional insureds, the Coop would get notified by the carrier).

____________________

David Goldsmith
DG Neary Realty

>>when it rains, it is brutal listening to the rain drops hit the top of the ac unit......brutal.......<<

There's a very easy solution to that! Most hardware shops sell magnetized sheets with a thin foam attached to the top made specifically to drown that incessant, crazy-making *PING PING PING* city A/C owners suffer from. This ingenious contraption is cheap, easy to customize (you cut it to fit your AC, top grill and all, with a pair of scissors).

It's an absolute godsend--the foam absorbs even the largest, merciless drips and drops, reducing them to a faint and muted *WHUMP*, if you hear anything at all.

Now, if only there were something similar to tone down my upstairs neighbor...

now we need the equivalent to tune out matt.

Squid, those foam-magnet things are great! They do wear out after a few years (corrosive pigeon-poop?) but cheap-and-easy.

Another thread involving columbiacounty where I'm not needed to degrade the quality of the discourse.

It's really useful to have a poster coming into threads where they aren't needed and solely adding to the discussion that they aren't needed.

Thanks 30yrs_RE_20_in_REO.

Remember your "friend" columbiacounty was hoping you'd go away permanently after you left in what he described as a "huff".

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/16432-how-co-op-boards-view-arms

columbiacounty
13 days ago
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whow...thought you went off in a huff. stay there. huff is good. if you're gonna threaten to go away, you gotta stay away.

hi hfscomm1

Does any one know cost of putting AC through wall?
Building I am looking at is 50 Park Ave.

You better check with the building first to see if they'll even allow it. If they do, I suggest talking to them as they may have the names of other contractors who did such work in the building recently, and they will certainly let you know which contractors did a good job (meaning they will speed your approval) and which contractors did not (meaning good luck with getting that contractor reapproved to work in the building).

Atlasnyc,

5-6k per unit.

OP. IMHO - if there isn't a great view and if most of the other apartments in the bldg have window units, then the potential buyer will probably accept it as the norm. I'd image board approval radically different building to building.

atlasnyc: We just paid $2,000 in a Chelsea per-war co-op. Our building does not allow window units to to be replaced when they break dow and has a rule that when an apartment is sold, the window units must be changed over to through-wall with 90 days. They only allow the work to be done by one or two recommended companies. There was an additional charge of $100 for the sleeve. The window had to be reglazed, which was another $300. The new AC unit was about $900. We are very happy with the result. The new unit is much less obtrusive and we have more light and more of a view.

KAS61, thanks. Knowing the name of your installer would be of great help. I would phone them before purchase.

Kas,

Can you tell me who the HVAC guys were? Did the have to hang from outside? That is a great price

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It may be that my building has an arrangement whereby the work is done at a discounted price. There are a lot of units in my co-op so I am sure they get a lot of work here. There was nothing to hang outside. It is a through-wall unit, a Friedrich WS12C10.

Was there already an opening in the bricks? Usually you need to pull a one day permit and then hang at least a chair outside the window to cut the opening.

Oh I see what you are asking. Sorry! No they knocked the hole through. I wasn't home but I don't think they had to hang outside the window on a pulley/chair. I'll find out. No permit either, as far as I know. It could be that the building has the permit to allow this kind of work. We had the same thing done in our last apartment (same building). They were doing facade work at the time and they already had the hoist set up, so they definitely did it from outside. Five years ago. Same price. I know the building has very stringent policies/guidelines on how this work should be done and that is why they only allow one or two companies to carry out this type of work.