Question: How many buyers use a lawyer for a purchase?

what? is it even possible? in seattle we closed without an attorney, which is standard there. but here i doubt it could be done for a coop. i don't know if it could be done with a condo. i thought there were some restrictions.

In New York? That would be rather foolish.

I dont think its possible. Other than that, it is quite cheap compared to what RE lawyers cost in some other countries (1%)

When we sold our one bedroom coop in Long Island 14 years ago, my husband's law firm sent over a very experienced RE paralegal to help us at the closing. My husband is an attorney, but not a RE attorney. When we buy an apartment, there is no way that I wouldn't use a RE attorney to do the closing. My husband's close friend is a commercial RE attorney and he used another attorney when he closed on his house in New Jersey. Why take a chance with such a large purchase?

Don't know about coops, but in the condo I lived in, one non-lawyer went in without legal representation. Although he enjoyed the learning experience, he said he wouldn't do it again.

For some reason, in Western states the title company does all that legal stuff, so you don't need a lawyer, but here it's the absolute norm. I think even for SFRs throughout the Northeast, without the complexity of a condo, let alone a coop.

What's a normal fee to be charged?

Ours charged a flat fee of $2,500. That's definitely not a place you want to skimp. If you can afford NY real estate you can suck up the lawyer fee. They do a lot of work and really do make you feel more confident that you aren't missing something big.

Under no circumstances whatsoever when purchasing NYC RE is it advisable to engage in a deal without an attorney who is well-versed in NYC RE. One exception: If one is an attorney, and knowledgeable about RE, then it is possible although often inadvisable to go it alone without representation.

This is the largest investment/purchase on many people's lives. You are a fool to cut corners to save $1500-2500 by not hiring an experienced RE attorney. A FOOL. It is like home dentistry. Or saving money on a child's vaccinations by buying serum over the internet and reading on Wikepedia how to inject your kid yourself so as to save money on a doctor. Do not do this.

Ya need a lawyer to close in NY cuz that's how the NY Bar wants it. So, although it's a scam, it's better to use a lawyer to close in NY.

Alan, you're right: no lawyer needed to close in the West. That's because the lawyers didn't succeed in lobbying to control the closing process.

In other states such as the west real estate brokers write the contracts. Here attorneys do. I am an experianced real estate broker and investor but even in states where it is supposidly not neccessary to get an attorney I have always hired a good real estate attorney and it has saved me from some very costly "closing costs" and other costs that the seller or bank may be willing to negotiate

Excellent. Thanks for the help everyone.

oldbroker: I disagree that the NYC RE market is similar to the entire western U.S. In NYC in particular, the potential landmines in cooperative apartments are not readily apparent and due diligence when buying an apartment in an urban environment as complex as NYC takes knowledge and experience.

I find it ironic that someone with a moniker "oldbroker" is bashing attorneys. In the "west," which you claim the bar does not play a role, RE brokers manage to pollute the field all by themselves. Grotesque examples of brokers' putrid conflicts of interest are accepted (e.g., one broker actually representing buyer and seller in a transaction without any independent legal counsel advising either party). At least in NYC, counsel adds an element of objectivity that the RE industry is bereft of. In a business where it is often unclear to whom a broker even owes a duty of loyalty and which is full of conflicts generated by broker self-interest, attorneys can add a welcome breath of independent thought and true loyalty to a client.

Kyle, reread the thread. Nobody is bashing attorneys.

You most certainly need an attorney in NY. I think in Florida you don't.
Anyway your paying all these ridiculous fees to the bank and to the state for your new purchase. Isn't it wise to have at least one party (your attorney)looking out for your interests and making sure everyone else you are paying is doing their job?
Your paying the bank's attorney (sometimes close to double) your attorney just to show up that day.
Some bankers can't even answer you on what the formula is for your prepayment penalty....from their own bank.

In the Western states that I'm familiar with, it's the title company (not the RE broker) who does most of what the RE atty does here. Other than that, there are state-standardized contracts that have check-boxes and initial-here areas for all kinds of waiver/assumption of responsibility things and contingencies. It's not that complicated.

I suppose if you have another head in the room at closing, it could in theory dilute the worthless-clown ratio so that the deal can close that day anyway.

truthskr10, I thought prepayment penalties were statutorily prohibited on residential mortgages in NY. No?

You know...I can't say...all my prepayment experiences were on commercial mortgages!

That is very possible, can someone else confirm?

oldbroker: my apologies. I was addressing Dwell's post, not yours, and got the name wrong.

Hi. Are there any specific querstions you should always ask a lawayer? Thanks.

We can never agree on whether or not brokers are necessary but lawyers somehow get a consensus here. The key is to get a genuine real estate attorney in NYC. Not someone who does wills, divorces, whatever. A good lawyer is absolutely essential.

ny state i think requires you to have a real estate lawyer when purchasing (possibly a requirement of title co). This may not be the case if you purchase property with cash (no mortgage). Regardless I have purchased property outside of here and never needed a lawyer. Personally feel the whole new york real estate system is a mess (ny has "acceptable offers" that are non-binding). The real estate process is MUCH more clean and efficent outside of new york.

bond wrote: "ny state i think requires you to have a real estate lawyer when purchasing"

There is no such thing as a "RE lawyer" in any licensed, technical sense in NY. Attorneys are not licensed in particular practice areas and indeed cannot by rules of the bar hold themselves out to be experts in any particular area. They can, however, emphasize experience in certain types of matters. If a lawyer is required, it is a lawyer, period. Not a particular type.

That said, the questions to ask are how many closings of the type you are contemplating does the attorney do a year. If you are buying a coop, I'd want to know how many coop closings the attorney does, how they gained experience with coops, what types of problems have arisen in past closings that they had to address. This will give you a sense of their depth of knowledge.

I'd also ask about what education/knowledge/experience the attorney has with reading financial documents since due diligence requires digesting financial statements. If the attorney isn't skilled in this area ask if s/he works with a CPA or the like to evaluate financials.

The best source for finding an attorney is by referral from a trusted friend/family member/co-worker, or from an attorney with whom you work on non-RE matters.

Hey kyle,

I'm an atty, so I kinda know that the NY bar has influenced the closing process. IMO, in simple closings (ie: single family homes), it'd be cheaper for buyer if we had the system which exists in the West, they close in escrow, there's no sit down closing. However, I think the RE lawyer best serves the buyer by reviewing purchase contract & mtg committment prior to buyer signing.

Hey red,

IMO, I think it's valuable to buy a book on RE purchasing & mtgs. That will show you what potential issues may exist. If those issues appear, ask yr atty about it. When hiring a RE atty, make sure he/she has experience in purchase/financing of RE.

You gotta use an attorney. But don't forget at the end of the day you're the one signing the documents and will be responsible for everything. Make sure you are well-informed.

Oh, and don't forget to tip the title closer! ... another NY gem!!!

BTW, in said Western states, your offer is bound by "earnest money" that amounts to something like 1% of the usually-piddly sale price ... and that's it until you pay the other 99% at closing. It's all so cheap and easy, I'm surprised they don't have a problem with cash-poor people buying much too much house.

"Oh, and don't forget to tip the title closer! ... another NY gem!!!"

Alan, yes!!!!! Before ya walk out, it's like some Christmas tipping payoff!! Yeah, tip the closer & there's even a percentage yer supposed to tip!! Friggin shake down scam.

Uh.... it's not just the Western States... it's Western NY State.... like Buffalo (at least it used to be).

Also, in other States like California, no one even shows up at the closing: they send all the documents to teh "closing agent" and "close escrow"

Sometimes, out West, the closing is easier, especially with a new construction, single family home subdivision, whereas, in the East, property may be older, so title, restrictions & compliance may be more complicated. But, yes, out West, they close in Escarole: delicious!

... but with a high-fructose corn syrup glaze, for no apparent reason. And that's why it's still easier to deal with the NY ways.

BTW, it gets even better when you buy in many other countries, because they [this is brilliant -- it must have been thought up by a genius) have a government database of title searches, so they don't have to do a full (and full-priced) title search back to Year One every time a property is resold. Can you imagine?

As for the lawyers, contracts, and how closings occur, I suspect it's rooted in the ancient, colonial-based legal history in the East, versus the newer, clean-title-since-the-US-appropriated-it, homesteady history of the western territories.

Did you know Arizona's centennial is coming up soon? It's younger than that woman who was strangled by her 98-year-old roommate in a nursing home recently, and by the alleged strangler.

And there was always the spit in hand handshake.
(Deadwood, the greatest show ever)