Tenants Buy Stuyvesant Town

So, Clipper Equity is SOL? If so, good!

nfw

why buy it when the milk is free?

well not at a premium. how about 750 million? that's the way it would be played by PE.

happy holidays cc.

actually, $7.5MM down, $742.5MM nyc resident tax advantaged munis, backed by the fed. now you're talking.. it'll just take 75 of us with $100K down and $50K donation to bloomie/nyc council.

Let's see. You got 4400 apts that going to be kicked down to just over $2K a piece 'cause that's presumably how much "renovation" was put into them. So that's a rent roll of something just north of $105M a year. Then, you got 6850 apartments that are still RS at who knows what rent. Let's be generous and call it something like $1500, so $103M a year.

So you got gross rent roll of $200M, and things are stuck there until 2020 given then J-51 ruling, or until you die or whatever if you make under $175K. Give the place a generous 10x gross rents, maybe you get to $2B. Then you got the matter of $300M owed in back-rents, so maybe $1.7B.

Why the hell would you bid $2.5-3B? Because Stuy Town residents are suckers?

On your points:

A) Taxpayers get repaid
Taxpayers are already going to get repaid at $1.8B 'cause that's all Freddie/Fannie are in for, and they're at the front of the line. The property will probably go for something like that.

B) Affordable housing is preserved
Affordable housing is already preserved, for longer than what was intended given the recent ruling.

C) Current tenants get a great deal on a purchase/owning
At $2.5-$3B, the tenants get a crappy deal. The bubble-high price assuming aggressive destabilization was $5.4B. First, remove "aggressive" as that didn't work out. Then, remove "destabilization" altogether as that was deemed illegal. Then, add $300M in back-rents. Then, add a 30% fall from bubble-high prices. That gets you to $1.8B, which is where the market is at right now. Then, add any fundamental long-term valuation metric you may think is appropriate.

C) ... promotes a less transient community.
Uh, the complex was built 40's and 60% of the units were STILL rent-stabilized prior to the recent ruling. I don't think the community is transient.

hey....the tenants have got the owners by the balls. why would any entity bid on this other than the tenants? $750 million period.

Longer-term, I think there is tremendous value in the acreage. I don't like how Stuy & PCV are "walled" off from the street grid. If the tenant group buys it, there could be huge potential in redeveloping the land parcel (because presumably tenants would act in enlightened self-interest).

It would be cool to reconnect the complexes back to the street grid and have new buildings of different densities & more retail frontage, while still preserving some green space.

inonada...i don't know who you are but I'm signing up because you're brilliant!!

happy holidays... nyc10023, julia (hope no more funny health issues in 2010), cc (again) and inonada... you remind of myself bf i started drinking...wherez aboutready and the rest of the regulars? any happy holidays to the bullz and bearz, and the trannies amongst us all...

anyways... (damn)

The $750 million bid, does this include free treble money damages to aboutready and her husband and daughter?

w67th, busy. very. these joyous holidays may be the death of me. they...will...be...over...soon.

i'll buy my apartment for $100k. maybe even a bit more, because i'm a little bit of a sucker? actually at $1.8 billion for the complex i think the apartment is worth about $275k. i'm happy to pay fair value.

10023, one of the things i like MOST about this place is its being off the grid. i can ignore the project-like facades as i walk through park-like environs. efficient, no. but there is no real effort made to limit the public's use of the space, so it could be thought of as another green space available to the city, complete with outdoor recreational opportunities like basketball, volleyball, etc.

Julia: I love you too, man! Comments like that make all the life I've wasted here with my dysfunctional SE family worthwhile. *sniff*

w67th: The difference is that you've shed your id and thrown off the shackles of society, spewing ranting tirades bordering on mad geniusness in those fleeting moment of clarity. I'm still stuck by the bounds of society. I envy and admire you. You ever see the Simpsons episode where Barney is explained with how Homer introduced him to Duff's?

hfs: I hope so! She'll throw a big party, we'll build a big bonfire out of Tishman Speyer dealbooks, Blackstone paper, and taxpayer dollars, dance around and chant until dawn. You bring up a good point, that $300M liability is potentially $900M. More likely to settle for less, so let's call it $450M?

"C) ... promotes a less transient community.
Uh, the complex was built 40's and 60% of the units were STILL rent-stabilized prior to the recent ruling. I don't think the community is transient."

Let's put it to our resident expert, actually. AR: does the local Duane Reade stock more Pampers or Depends?

(I'm feeling a fleeting hint of that w67-style moment of clarity. Damn, it's now gone.)

inonada, yes, i'd be happy to throw a big party with my ill-gotten gains and dance around the bonfires and chant until dawn. a fitting party to celebrate the end of the TS tenure here.

btw, you've been on quite the roll recently. haven't had much time to comment, but that grammar post yesterday made me laugh, irregardless of my own grammar snafus.

oh, btw, that $300M is being held in escrow already, pursuant to court order. and is growing every month. thank you nys court of appeals.

nada, somehow i missed your response to "c". well, as the saying goes, newly wed or nearly dead. but these days there are the frat kids as well. although their ranks seem to be declining, and the vast majority of the kids i see in our building are lovely (there's one group of girls i could really do without, and one group of guys who are so comical i hope they stay for their entire undergraduate "careers"), but other than that i'd say the diapers and depends are evenly split at PCV, and there are more diapers than depends at ST. but interestingly, we don't have a duane reade. 2 cvs's and a walgreens.

i think to achieve a w67th-style moment of clarity you would have needed to focus on different products and services. wouldn't dream of speaking for him, just a sense i have.

Yoohoo! Party's on!

Thank you for the kind words. It's been a slow week, I guess. Had too much downtime between all the holiday parties.

P.S. Would it be bad form if I brought hfs as my "plus one"?

Possibly a too simple question - but if the complex is looked at as a coop/condo conversion, I would think the purchase value would immediately go much higher than the $1.8 billion, (which is based on current rental return.

Sale value, IMHO, would be a whole different ballgame.

"i think to achieve a w67th-style moment of clarity..."

I know, I'm grasping for straws. I'll never be w67.

"but these days there are the frat kids as well"

But wait, aren't they the biggest consumers of Depends? You know, be self-packing for a night out drinking. That's how we rolled back in the day, anyways.

ph41, depends on who gets control of the complex, and how they structure any sale, whether its coop or condo, etc. and remember, financing won't be easy, nor will conversion. plus, it will not be possible to do anything without the cooperation of a huge body of RS tenants, so either nothing will happen in terms of purchase or something very accommodating will occur. i don't see anything in between that would allow ("convince") enough units in any given building to convert to allow financing.

inonada, you can bring hfs but only if i can roast him/her in the bonfire. is it bad form if i "roast" a guest?

the frat kids are packing depends? i'm so behind the times. how resourceful of them. to think they could have such planning skills. maybe there's hope after all.

How so, ph41? ALL the apartments are rent stabilized until 2020 (even the ones improperly destabilized in the past), and longer if the tenant makes less than $175K. How can you convert anything before at least 2020 unless you buy them out?

"is it bad form if i "roast" a guest?"

LOL too funny. Ah crap, you've done it now. Do you know how much pennance were all going to have to pay now by hearing hfs go on and on about that little outburst and your need for anger management?

"the frat kids are packing depends?"

No clue; seems plausible, though. I was just taking artistic license to further the discussion.

inonada, i was just responding to your request to bring hsf to my shindig. i don't have to pay any penance, as i don't pay any attention to the one who brings nothing interesting to say to this board. although hsf will be certain to think that i've read everything just because i mention hsf. sad little existence. although i like YOUR responses to hsf.

i like artistic license. and unicorns. one stands proudly within sight of my monitor.

aboutready
about 5 hours ago
ignore this person
report abuse btw, you've been on quite the roll recently. haven't had much time to comment, but that grammar post yesterday made me laugh, irregardless of my own grammar snafus.

haha haha haha haha so funny
bloodsucking idiot

aboutready
about 4 hours ago
ignore this person
report abuse
inonada, you can bring hfs but only if i can roast him/her in the bonfire. is it bad form if i "roast" a guest?

haha haha haha so funny
hey, its less than a week away from the anniversary of the time you and the toilet plunger spent Christmas eve together.

aboutready
about 4 hours ago
ignore this person
report abuse
inonada, i was just responding to your request to bring hsf to my shindig. i don't have to pay any penance, as i don't pay any attention to the one who brings nothing interesting to say to this board. although hsf will be certain to think that i've read everything just because i mention hsf. sad little existence. although i like YOUR responses to hsf.

So clever. Must have required a Yale education to come up with that little strategy to ignore me. Unfortunately every day when you use the toilet you think of me. And your next thought is how to cheat someone.

it makes no sense that the tenants would value the complex at a number greater than a third party---they should receive a substantial discount. seems like that will be the eventual outcome as it is difficult if not impossible to conceive of putting together the financing to purchase any other way.

AR - I totally agree with your post, which, in a way, was what I was suggesting; ST/PCV will be a valuable property in the future. Current value will reset to rental rate of return. However, I suspect that government will have to step in to help untangle this whole situation, and with NYC and NYS finances in dire straits right now, any sort of "handouts" to existing tenants to purchase units at distressed pricing could cause a serious backlash. And getting that many tenants, many high on the recent court ruling, to agree on anything would probably require a miracle. I think even if tenants were presented with "reasonable" prices to purchase their apartments they might behave as union workers in a company teetering on the edge, asked to be reasonable in their salary/benefit demands: union workers refuse, company folds or moves, union workers no longer have jobs.

As in you might really expect to buy a 2br/2bth apartment in Manhattan for $275,000 or less?

typical insider deals on non eviction co-ops were between 1/2 and 2/3rds off supposed list price. why would this be any different?

Because "list" price in this case would be quite a bit higher than what the tenants would think is "list" price(or discounts quite a bit lower than they would expect. (And don't know if any tenants in the relatively recent past, really got 50% off).

Whoever takes over this complex is probably not going to bend over and allow themselves to be f***ed in the a**. At new complex purchase price, the rents may be economically viable for a purchaser to hold.

ph41, you're assuming the tenants don't get control of the complex. i have no crystal ball, but i wouldn't make that assumption. and i think you'd be surprised by the tenants here. the media constantly misrepresents this complex as a bunch of malcontents. for the most part former market rate and RS tenants get along remarkably well. you'd have a significant number of families who'd be interested in buying their units, and some elderly as well, particularly if the rules allowed for purchasing for children. but the prices would have to be fairly low to get any deal done, and if the tenants get the complex, at any cost, they are going to want to sell some units so they can subsidize permanent RS rent levels for long-term residents.

politically it would be a very good move at this point (given who currently holds the senior debt here) to facilitate a transfer to the tenants. whether or not that happens remains to be seen, but it wouldn't shock me.

AR - but don't you think the it would require some sort of government "aid" (not entirely sure what form) to enable the tenants to take over the complex? Which, in this environment would be a really tough sell.

the only government involvement here is as senior lender on a deal that went bust. if the tenants buy it, they are helping out the government not the other way around.

If the government "eats" a great portion of the debt in order to facilitate a tenant buyout, might not be seen that way by the press and general public.

ph41, these are the GSEs we are talking about? plus, the gov't wouldn't stand to lose much, if anything. they're at the top of the payout heap.

ph41, the gov't is first in line, and their debt totals $1.5 billion. complex currently valued at $1.8 billion. any aid given would not be to the tenants, it would be to make the non-senior debt holders whole, and i'd have to think doing that, at the expense of the tenants, could be spun quite negatively by the press, hmm?

AR - how would tat be at the expense of the tenants? Who already are in line to profit pretty well from the court decision

The aid given would be to keep the complex operating at an acceptable level, no? Wouldn't that be helping the tenants as well? Who now face, even with the treble damages, what may be a rapidly deteriorating housing situation.

ph41, who's getting what aid? the complex needs to change hands. the gov't will get repaid. the 7000 RS tenants didn't get a thing from the ruling, except freedom from a landlord who was trying at all costs to not renew each and every one of their leases.

who is this mythical entity that is somehow receiving further largesse? you've made clear all along your disdain for my decision to live here. it seems as though the concept that the complex may become well-run, functioning and self-owned irritates you, but for the life of me i can't see why. is the world a worse place because Related doesn't get a second shot at owning this at a fire sale price instead of the tenants?

"As in you might really expect to buy a 2br/2bth apartment in Manhattan for $275,000 or less?"

ph41, what would you pay for AR's apartment? Its rent is going to be just above $2K for the next decade, modulo any RS increases which will at best go up with inflation. Assuming higher inflation, they will surely go up less than inflation. "Irregardless", you can hedge the inflation risk in the markets and more or less fix the increases at 2-3%, or whatever the market is pricing the next decade of inflation at. That's a $24K annual rent roll. Oh, and by the way, you're going to have to pay AR (I'll assume she's been there 2 years) somewhere between $50K and $150K in back-rent, depending on how much of treble damages gets settled. All this in hopes that in about a decade, you get an apartment that is market-rate. And what's market rate for it? Probably somewhere in the mid-3's right now, I'm guessing.

And that's the best-case apartment. You got other 2BR/2BA that are renting for $1200 + RS increases for the next decade. How much would you pay for that? That one does have the advantage of not being encumbered with $50-150K owed in back-rent.

My point here is that if you're guaranteed the place until you (or maybe your children) die, you have a monthly cost that is locked in for life like an ARM mortgage if you choose not to hedge the inflation risk or like a fixed mortgage if you do, and you're never planning on leaving, what's the upside of buying unless it's attractive financially? At the 200x (if you have a bad rental deal) to 300x (if you have a good rental deal) monthly rent that the "regular" market trades at, which is what I assume you meant by "reasonable" price, it simply isn't.

they just painted our hallway. 4 out of 5 of the washing machines were working on Thursday. with snow you can't even see the weeds. give me an f'ng break. this place will not be allowed to deteriorate below a certain level. thanks for your concern, but we'll be fine.

ph41, what would you pay for AR's apartment? Its rent is going to be just above $2K for the next decade, modulo any RS increases which will at best go up with inflation. Assuming higher inflation, they will surely go up less than inflation. "Irregardless", you can hedge the inflation risk in the markets and more or less fix the increases at 2-3%, or whatever the market is pricing the next decade of inflation at. That's a $24K annual rent roll. Oh, and by the way, you're going to have to pay AR (I'll assume she's been there 2 years) somewhere between $50K and $150K in back-rent, depending on how much of treble damages gets settled. All this in hopes that in about a decade, you get an apartment that is market-rate. And what's market rate for it? Probably somewhere in the mid-3's right now, I'm guessing.

Also, please factor into the equation that the aboutready family tends to destroy things in the apartment like the toilet seat and blame the landlord. So if you own the apartment, you'll have to pick up that expense.

"The aid given would be to keep the complex operating at an acceptable level, no?"

Uhh, the place has a rent roll, even after the decision, of on the order of $200M. You buy the place for $1.8B, put up $300M of equity, and keep the GSE debt at 5%, so $75M to pay the $1.5B debt. Say the heat is a generously-allocated $250 per apt for 6 months of the year for 11K apartments, so let's just round that up to $20M, oh screw-it, $25M. You still got $100M, or $9K of lolly per apartment, to spread around to pay the staff, fix the elevators, fancy up the yard, and keep a little for yourself.

Magic things happen when you take a $5.4B over-priced asset based on stupid valutions and make it a $1.8B asset with reasonable valuation.

"Also, please factor into the equation that the aboutready family tends to destroy things in the apartment like the toilet seat and blame the landlord. So if you own the apartment, you'll have to pick up that expense."

Let's make a deal. You pay me $1M today. I'll pay you whatever AR's apartment rents for, minus expenses, for the rest of time. Toilet seats included.

Need advise...my new lease arrived with a rider that the LL wants me to sign..the LL admits they're receiving J-51 benefits currently but they claim the courts have not decided whether it was retroactive or whether it would be prospective in its application...they state my current lease is based on rent stablization increases...

I'm assuming they're basing it on a rent of $2,000...and the new lease is $2125..of course my '09 lease is $2500...does it make sense for me to stay at least for another year. Help I need to send in the lease by 12/31.

Hmm, could work out. Let me do a bit more investigation.

Aboutready, how many toilet seats per year would you say your family goes through?

AR and inonada - as AR herself so eloquently pointed out re: sale to tenants "depends on who gets control of the complex, and how they structure any sale, whether its coop or condo, etc. and remember, financing won't be easy, nor will conversion. plus, it will not be possible to do anything without the cooperation of a huge body of RS tenants, so either nothing will happen in terms of purchase or something very accommodating will occur. i don't see anything in between that would allow ("convince") enough units in any given building to convert to allow financing."

AR - please don't be so touchy and hyper sensitive.

It is kind of confusing. On the one hand aboutready is very sensitive. On the other she is so nasty to so many people.

Plus she asks for it, always making her problem (or even nonproblem) into someone else's, and always revealing personal detail about herself and family, even inappopriately about her 12 year old daugter's conversations about sex with her doctor, plus too much information about her toilet.

AR is one of the most thoughtful, knowledgable and supportive posters on SE...and a happy holiday to everyone.

You truly are a good friend. Aboutready should feel lucky to have someone as righteous as you in her camp.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/15787-holiday-tipping
julia
13 minutes ago
ignore this person
report abuse
I've come close to deciding to renew my lease but i already gave out the holiday tips which were much lower than if I would have renewed...should I go back and add additional money or just let it go.

Julia, I think $2125 probably is indeed the RS amount for your place. Assuming a 1-year lease and the owner paying the heat, they'd be entitled to a 3% increase this year from last year's RS base. That would put last year's RS base at $2063, which is not unreasonable because they probably didn't do renovations to hit the $2000 destabilization point exactly. In other words, the vacancy increase and renovations probably kicked the apartment's RS base up to $2063 for your lease last year, and now they're increasing it by 3% to $2125 as legally allowed. Of course, it's your choice on whether or not you pay that: the RS base is merely the maximum that may be charged.

So what's the best alternative you've seen?

"my new lease arrived with a rider that the LL wants me to sign"

Woa-woa-woah. Hold on there a minute. What's in the rider?

Hey hfs, are you going to start quoting me too or are we copacetic? I try to be polite & righteous, but who knows, maybe I've said a thing or two I shouldn't have. I did get into it a little once with Rhino, if you're interested in digging that up. You might be entertained.

ph41, by accommodating i meant the price offered to the tenants to buy their individual units. not assistance necessary from the government. and please. where will i possibly entertain my husband's partners?

julia, happy holidays to you too. i agree with inonada, the rent seems legit. but it does seem odd that they want you to sign a rider.

and again to parrot inonada, what can you get elsewhere, where you'd prefer to be?

inonada, it's easy to get into a thing with Rhino. He has a natural tendency toward violence and epithets, all as expressed on streeteasy. Could you post the link?

aboutready
42 minutes ago
ignore this person
report abuse
"and please. where will i possibly entertain my husband's partners?"

So that's the way it is in their family.

AR - invite them all for a country weekend.

hfs, see http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/15461-what-if-im-wrong. It's post #113 (or so) where I think I'm being less than perfectly amicable.

How did I miss that discussion?
That is almost as bad as when Rhino broke down and attacked stevejhx for being a "gay translating accountant" simply because Rhino was losing an argument.

why are you feeding this nut job?

That's wrong: stevejhx is a gay translating comedian accountant. Everybody knows that!

I'm glad I could brighten your otherwise dark and lonely existence down in the basement. Trolls are people too, you know.

I agree, it is kind of dark this evening.

"why are you feeding this nut job?"

Perhaps it's because I think we can groom him into an upstanding, dysfunctional SE denizen like the rest of us. Have you noticed that in about 5% of recent posts, he has actually expressed an opinion? Progress.

So hfs, we all got flaws here. Some of us are quick to attack, some of us are quick to judge, some of us are full of ourselves, and some of us behave like trolls. Why the big fuss? I sometimes think I'm stupid for sitting here all day conversing away, but sometimes I give/get useful information, and I feel like I'm socializing with interesting people with different viewpoints. What do you get out of just pointing out people's flaws all day? Is it worth your time?

"I agree, it is kind of dark this evening."

Screw all -- it's 4:30, the sun's set, and we're talking about "evening" already. Good news is it's all uphill from here, I guess.

you're going to groom it?

i no longer read its posts -- gotta draw the line somewhere. its like a silly echo with the endless repostings. good luck to you if you've found it to be a source of amusement.

I've expressed an opinion from the outset. Recall weeks ago that aboutready believed that new condo owners ought to have their tax abatements (that they paid for) revoked but that tax benefits should go to rental tenants by way of lower rents, and I brought up that incongruity and showed it as a prime example of her entitlement and welfare mentality. (she lied about it too after I pointed it out).

Since then, we've learned that not only is she entitled to rent breaks through tax incentives, but that she is also entitled to money damages from her landlord, she is entitled to break her toilet seat and have it replaced, she is entitled to not work and not contribute anything otherwise to society, she is entitled to the free education she got from Yale, and she won't let her child inherit money free and clear.

Oh, was that relevant to me expressing an opinion and did that help answer your question? Maybe not, oh well.

ps - when will columbiacounty go on another tirade about flat screen tvs coming out of people's butts?

"my new lease arrived with a rider that the LL wants me to sign"

Julia,
If this is a new rider, a rider that is different from one you signed during your prior renewal or vacancy lease, then you do not have to sign that particular rider. Question is whether this rider " constitute material changes to the terms and conditions of the vacancy lease".

http://www.dhcr.state.ny.us/Rent/FactSheets/orafac4.htm

The renewal lease must keep the same terms and conditions as the expiring lease unless a change is necessary to comply with a specific law or regulation. Those lawful provisions that would change the expiring lease should be attached to the Renewal Lease Form. (See Example #2 below).

Example #2

Two years ago, Mrs. Cooper signed a vacancy lease which contained no clauses or riders regarding lead paint, recyclable materials, late fees, or pets. Upon expiration of her lease, the landlord offers a renewal lease which includes several riders:
1. Rider 1 (Prevention of Lead-Based Paint Hazards) requests that Mrs. Cooper advise the owner if a child under 6 years old resides in the apartment.
2. Rider 2 specifies how certain materials such as paper, cardboard, cans, bottles, etc. must be recycled.
3. Rider 3 states that the tenant will be liable for a $20 late fee if rent is received by the landlord after the 10th of the month.
4. Rider 4 prohibits the harboring of pets in the apartment.

In this situation, Riders 1 and 2 constitute lawful provisions to the lease because they are necessary to comply with New York City lead paint and recycling laws.

Riders 3 and 4 are provisions that cannot be added to the renewal lease because they constitute material changes to the terms and conditions of the vacancy lease, which did not include a late fee or a pet clause. Mrs. Cooper can sign the rider without waiving any rights and may file a lease renewal complaint.

Happy Holidaze Everyone!

"Maybe not, oh well."

Heh.

Bringing it full circle to the topic of the thread and an "opinion" you've expressed, what do you think should be done on the J-51 situation? What parts of the ruling do you agree / disagree with? The notion that the apts should not have been deregulated and need to go back into stabilization? The notion that back-rent is due? The notion that treble damages may be due? The notion that the beneficiaries of these are not the intended audience of the RS program?

dwell, the issue in Julia's case is that she never signed a vacancy lease: she simply signed a market-rate lease. The RS status of her apartment is probably at best murky, and who knows how the standard RS rules will apply.

Oops, sorry. I thought Julia was a RST. Well, that's another ball of wax. With a market lease, L doesn't have to renew on same terms & conditions. Sorry, kiddo.

dwell -- because of the J-51 ruling, the LL likely illegally made Julia's apt market-rate and it should have been kept RS if the Stuy Town ruling is applied elsewhere. Hence, maybe she does have the right to renew on the same terms & conditions, modulo the RS price, but who knows?

hfs -- good luck with that, and knock yourself out! I'll still poke a little fun at your anonymous persona every now and then, all in good jest. Hope you don't mind ;).

inonada - is it possible that the new rider in some way is getting Julia to accept an illegal conversion to market-rate rent? I think she really has to read it very carefully before signing (if she chooses to stay)

Julia - don't know how long the rider is, but possibly if you post it here you might get some interesting interpretations/viewpoints

wow--- your suggestion is to read it carefully? are you kidding?

"what do you think should be done on the J-51 situation?"

inonada:

My random thoughts:
Big picture, this is a huge clusterf*ck. It will be dragged out in the courts for years, leaving many in limbo. The people who will benefit most are the lawyers, as they rack up legal fees. For these reasons alone, I think the decision was really bad.

Personally, I always interpreted the J51 regs as per the Ct of Appeals: If you take tax benefits, you're subject to the RSL: this makes sense.

But, DHCR came up with their own rather funky interpretation and one could almost envision that one day, DHCR's interpretation would be invalidated.

Nonetheless, DHCR is an administrative agency with the "expertise" to interpret & administer the rent laws. However, isn't J51 a NYC law & DHCR is a NYS agency, so, perhaps DHCR's interpretation isn't as primary. Which agency has primary jurisdiction for administering & interpreting J51? HPD? Well, HPD went along with DHCR's interpretation.

In terms of Adminstrative Law, the adminstrative agency has primary jurisdiction over how a statute should be interpreted & that interpretation must be respected by the courts unless it is arbitrary, capricious & w/o basis in fact or law. Using this standard, was it wrong of the Ct of Appeals to nullify DHCR's & HPD's interpretation & administration of the statute? IMO, I think DHCR's interpretation was funky, but not arbitrary, capricious & w/o basis in fact or law.

But, the worst thing is that DHCR's funky interpretation lulled & mislead owners into a comfort zone, which the Ct of Appeals nullified based on (I believe) the plain language of the statute. IMO, if DHCR were not a gov agency, perhaps owners could claim something like promisory estoppel (ie: ya can't change the rules in mid game), but I don't think one can claim estoppel against the gov.

IMO, I don't think treb damages will apply because there is no bad intent on owner's part; they were just following DHCR's interpretation.

Then, there's the reality of hubric Tishman who totally over paid based on ridiculous projections of potential rent increases & now could default. But, the Ct doesn't care about reality, it supposedly only cares about the law.

I only read the decision once, but, these were the impressions I came away with.

cc - yes, and also to post it - some people can read these kinds of documents better than others - so far Julie hasn't even posted what is in the rider, so possibly she hasn't read it carefully enough to give her second thoughts (other than about the rent $)

columbiacounty
2 minutes ago
ignore this person
report abuse
wow--- your suggestion is to read it carefully? are you kidding?

sometimes columbiacounty is his own best troll

hey pent house lady---her name is julia...not julie. looks like you started early this evening.

columbiacounty
less than a minute ago
ignore this person
report abuse
hey pent house lady---her name is julia...not julie. looks like you started early this evening.

sometimes columbiacounty is his own best troll

cc- bad typing, yes, but, being a nice person, I didn't correct AR "Courier and Ives" to the correct "Currier and Ives"

"dwell -- because of the J-51 ruling, the LL likely illegally made Julia's apt market-rate and it should have been kept RS if the Stuy Town ruling is applied elsewhere. Hence, maybe she does have the right to renew on the same terms & conditions, modulo the RS price, but who knows?"

I would say that Julian cannot be considered a RST at this time & therefore, she cannot now benefit from the protections of the RSL. However, depending on how the case resolves, she may be RS in the future. If so, then perhaps the new rent in the current renewal lease may be reduced via a rent overcharge complaint.

You also didn't correct aboutready when she used her Yale education to find a way to use the "word" irregardless.

penthouse lady---you are many things, but nice person is certainly not one of them. for some reason, you too are obsessed with about ready. let it go and perhaps you want to be another friend for the nutjob---hfsuseless.

this is amusing. columbiacounty says ph41 isn't a nice person. If a nasty person says someone else isn't a nice person, does that mean she really is a nice person?

cc: Yes I am a very nice person. Many people on SE would think from your many nasty posted comments that you are the pot calling the kettle black.

I was simply responding to your comment about my misspelling of Julia's name - simple typo that you seized on to make a nasty comment, vs. really wrong spelling of the printmakers' names

cc - and now, to quote you, "Stop, Stop - too ugly"

but what does one have to do with the other? thats the part that you're missing. i criticized your misuse of another poster's name; if you have an issue with that, great. but why the obsession with aboutready? what does she have to do with my criticism of you?

columbiacounty, what is your obsession of flat screen tvs coming out of people's butts?

columbiacounty
1 minute ago
ignore this person
report abuse
...but why the obsession with aboutready? what does she have to do with my criticism of you?

That's actually an interesting question. So ph41 attacks aboutready. What does that have to do with you? Why do you come to aboutready's defense? Shouldn't aboutready defend herself?

Please explain why ph41 can't discuss aboutready but you can?

cc - actually, more to the point, sorry you're so obsessed with me. Attacks on me totally from left field, having nothing to do with anything? (oh yes, anything that questions, in the slightest, AR's opinions, posts becomes a focal point for you - are you her father? her big brother? her knight in shining armor? I think AR is a smart woman who can speak for herself - but obviously you don't think so)

Again, "too ugly, STOP. STOP ) though that may not be an exact quote of CC.

i am not obsessed with you; for obsession, check my nutjob follower.

i am, as i have noted before, revolted by you.

columbiacounty, what makes you smile?

I kind of picture you happy in this situation:
http://aniramita.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/gargamel.jpg

"inonada - is it possible that the new rider in some way is getting Julia to accept an illegal conversion to market-rate rent?"

Who knows? It'd be suspect to me if I were julia.

dwell -- thanks for that analysis as it seems to provide an unbiased report for many of us who have never read the law or the rulings. Truly does sound like a clusterf-k. I wonder how much the bass-ackwards DHCR interpretation was influenced under-the-table by developers. If so, on the one hand, serves them right (developers) for trying to pull that BS. On the other hand, I'm sure hundreds of LLs acted (and paid prices) according to the DHCR interpretation with no ill intent.

Crap: I thought I was going to take hfs as my ward, but I turn away for a couple of hours, and it appears ph41 has become hfs's ward. Can't look away for a minute.

On the word irregardless:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/IRREGARDLESS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irregardless

Beauty of language is that if enough of us say a word, it gets entered into the language irregardless of whether it was there to begin with or not. Perhaps one day it'll have an "ancient genealogy" like the word "ain't".

so...you're batman? and he's robin? hilarious.

columbiacounty, what happens if you are fed after midnight?

dwell, i'm not saying it's right, but in terms of the treble damages issue the statutes generally have punitive built right in, evil intent doesn't matter. result of a century or so of landlords abusing rental tenants (not that your of that ilk, of course).

in terms of the cluster effect, there really aren't that many apartments affected city-wide, irregardless of what some would like you to believe.

inonada, i'd like to revive some terms that were frequently used in the past. forget those that haven't yet been accepted, and as my very geeky daughter would say, multus eheu.

ph41, i can't thank you enough for pointing out (sorry, could have used a better verb just there) my ignorant mistake. lordy, what was i thinking, presuming to reference something without spending some serious time considering whether my spelling were correct or whether i might appear foolish? good thing i don't really care about such things. but i'll be happy to return the favor as soon as is conveniently possible.

but it is strange. for all that you say that cc comes to my defense, i have definitely noticed that you often find some way to attack me, or involve me in your conversation, when cc attacks you. why? you find it witty to suggest that cc doesn't have any friends or sufficient funds to stay in the city and thus must sleep on my couch? so be it, and cc is always welcome to the aerobed if he should need it, but he doesn't and i hardly think it's nice to include me in such a way in your arguments with him. or you need to attack my error because cc points out one of yours? to channel w67th, which i'm trying to do more of these days, nice, nice.

things are so wacky in manhattan...I'm in the market earlier and start talking with the woman behind me on a very long line when, of course we start talking about rents, etc. She lives in a Mitchell Lama bldg. on 24th and 1st avenue...2 bedrooms for $350.00 a month. My jaw dropped and I immediately fainted. Almost.